Looking for Documentary Editor in Mid-Texas

TheOkinawaBadass wrote on 6/12/2009, 10:41 AM
Hey guys, I'm currently in the process of editing a documentary together with Vegas and am kinda looking for a little help in this. Job can't pay much right now as we're still working on getting completion funding together, but I will promise sole editor credit, complete creative control and equipment/travel expenses paid. The documentary concerns with the matter of suicide and depression, revolving around a cross-country bicycle trip from Waco to Alaska. Please contact if interested andi_nakasone@baylor.edu

check out a small teaser trailer here:

P.S. this is a non-profit film FYI.

Comments

Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/12/2009, 11:00 AM

"Job can't pay much right now..."

"Please send reels and resumes to..."

Am I the only one who sees a disconnect here?


Tom Pauncz wrote on 6/12/2009, 11:35 AM
Nope .. you are not.

This request belongs on craigslist where no-one wants to pay professionals for their time, experience and especially high-end equipment.

Now we get them here on the Vegas forum!

I should just go to my dentist and ask him if he can do whatever and I'll credit him every time someone comments on my fillings! LOL.

Tom
lynn1102 wrote on 6/12/2009, 12:30 PM
Link isn't working for me - anyone else see it?

Lynn
lynn1102 wrote on 6/12/2009, 12:35 PM
OK Got it to work.

Lynn
digitalelf wrote on 6/12/2009, 12:47 PM
It's a shame that people expect us to look the other way when we receive insults like this. We have many hours of instruction, schooling, experience and many dollars investment in equipment to our name. We are still paying our dues...it seems when approached to compromise for a job!

There are many other reputible businesses and artists who expect a fair production for a fair price. Just as 'common sense is not common' neither is fair business expectations.

My 2 cents. Michael M
winrockpost wrote on 6/12/2009, 2:09 PM
its not exactly like craigslist,, this poster says not pay much.. that means something,, .....I think. ......and it sounds like a good cause.,, Not so bad, i remember one or two people around here begging for someone to give them a camera, one by his wife or pretending to be his wife... hell this ain't so bad.
ushere wrote on 6/12/2009, 5:38 PM
agree with winrock,

if it's a 'good' / not for profit cause then i don't mind helping out if i have time (and yes, i regularly get asked to 'help out', and quite often do so).

what i do find objectionable though is being offered a 'credit' on a commercial venture - (which used to happen a lot - till word got around ;-)

then again, i'm semi-retired, and teach a fair amount, so time and the willingness to share my knowledge are useful factors. however, i would never 'give' my services free if there was any commercial interest involved - after all, if they (the producer('s)) see money at the end of the tunnel, i'd like to see mine before ntering it.....

TheOkinawaBadass wrote on 6/12/2009, 5:45 PM
umm... just to clarify it is non-profit. Didn't mean to offend anybody here, I'm recent college grad trying to make a film on an important subject and was just looking for Vegas editors to help with my own Vegas experience in the most obvious spot I could think of. If I can't find one to work with... than, well... I can't find one to work with. That's all. Oh well I guess.
ushere wrote on 6/12/2009, 6:33 PM
from my pov i didn't think your posting in the least 'offensive' - i wish you luck with it (i'm a little too far away to be of any real help).

i just think that the majority of pro editors here are probably a little too familiar with producers looking for 'freebies' when at the end of the day the producers are looking to make a profit (at the editors expense).

Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/13/2009, 6:31 AM

"... the majority of pro editors here are probably a little too familiar with producers looking for 'freebies' when at the end of the day the producers are looking to make a profit (at the editors expense)."

That is exactly the case.

I have done and continue to do a great deal of work for non-profits. They have needs like everyone else. However, they seldom get goods and services for free.

This proposal was put forth by the filmmaker. One who is soon to learn the "facts of life" when it comes to making a living at producing films/videos.

The disconnect comes in when someone says, in effect, "I'm a rank amateur and I have very little experience and even less money to work with. However, I want professionals to work for me, so send me your reel and resume." Try that approach with any other professional and see what happens. What is it about this industry that makes people think we can be treated this way and it's no big deal? Quoting the OP, "Oh well I guess."

For those who haven't seen it, PLEASE, watch this video!


Editguy43 wrote on 6/14/2009, 9:04 PM
WOW do I sence some Snobery here, I guy asks for some help from some professional's and gets slapped in the face by these "professionals" who are so good that they could never "waste" thier time with some charity work. At least that is what i read from a couple of you posters. If I had more experience I would love to do something like this.

Just my opinion and only mine maybe I read it wrong,
ushere wrote on 6/14/2009, 9:26 PM
editguy,

i don't think there's any snobbery involved, just plain old experience ;-) i doubt there's a single pro editor here who hasn't, or doesn't do work for 'free', in the full knowledge of what the project is about, and why there's no budget.

what get's my (our) backs up is being approached with half a story (not that the op did so), while the untold half is there's enough budget to pay the producer more than adequately.

heck, even my dentist does 'freebies' for the less fortunate.

this is not meant as a flame 43, when you do have enough experience in this business i'm sure you'll find out what we're talking about (unfortunately)

leslie
Editguy43 wrote on 6/14/2009, 9:50 PM
Ushere,

After your explination I do see and agree with what you are saying, and I have experienced some stuff in my business people saying one thing and doing another or saying we said one price and they fully knowing what the price we set was, and dont get me started on weddings and the Bridezillas ( we no longer do weddings) :-)
Anyway thanks for the "not a flame disclaimer" and I do hope to get the experience so that I could contribute to a documentary or a movie, and be able to donate some time.
PaulB
MUTTLEY wrote on 6/14/2009, 9:52 PM
Love that vid and article Jay, I've already posted it elsewhere. =)

First off, Non-Profit does not mean some people don't stand to make money. I'm not questioning the sincerity of the OP but I've seen many a case where people wave that flag around like it's some kind of magic cupon to get slave labor for pennies on the dollar or nothing at all.

I'm a starving artist, heck I don't make a profit, why don't people come cut my lawn or fix my car for free?

Craigslist is full of posts similar to this one. I think its somewhat audacious to ask anyone to work for less than a fair wage. Someone please tell me why it is that creative fields are so rampant with this? It's a sad commentary of how undervalued our talents have become. Almost every dime I make goes to keeping the lights on or bettering my equipment but some jerk on Craiglist with a lousy script wants to view my reel so he can decide if I'm good enough to work for him for credit and a copy of the finished DVD? Most of em want you to have your own equipment! Oh, and they would prefer HD. BUT, the good news? Theyre going to submit to festivals! Whoot! If your lucky they'll pay for your food which is bound to be Subway or cold pizza.

I paid for my equipment including my not so cheap computer that you want me to edit on. I paid for my camera, my lenses, my dolly, my jib, etc etc but you want to use them for free. And my skill? The years it took me to learn this stuff? Worth nothing? My talent? (Assuming I have any) Worth nothing?

Its one thing for people to hit up their friends and family for a project they believe in, to raise the funds to finance it to pay the people who have the skill and the talent and the equipment you need to finish your project. I actually just did this to finance some new equipment and training that was beyond my reach and am now in a nice financial little whole because of it. If it means that much to you put your own butt on the line. Dont be so pretentious as to bounce around the internet trying to sucker some poor chump who don't know better to waste his time and effort only to get nothing in return. Its not charity, its a con.

Yea, I hate this practice, its BS. Not only can it be completely insulting to those who have worked hard to get to where they are but it devalues the community as a whole.

- Ray
Some of my stuff on Vimeo
Me On Twitter

PS To TheOkinawaBadass, sorry to come off so harsh. Obviously this is a subject that frustrates me to no end and having seen literally hundreds of posts on Craigslist asking for this that and the other thing for free this thread became my place to vent.
rmack350 wrote on 6/14/2009, 10:28 PM
I've had plenty of run-ins with this sort of thing where someone thinks their project is extra worthy, the more so because it's a non profit. Normally it's really easy to just let these things go by, sometimes the project is interesting and I say Yes, usually it doesn't grab me and I just keep quiet. No need to get in a big huff but sometimes when someone directs a request like this directly to me I can get bent out of shape.

Here's the thing with a request for resumes on a freebie. Beggers can't be choosers. If someone wants to get free help they need to make their project really attractive. It's one thing to ask people to give a couple of days, it's another to ask an editor to give you a month of their spare time.

Obviously you don't want to get a volunteer editor who's never completed a project and is likely to leave you worse off than you started, so you need to see something like a reel, but it's very hard to stand there with your hand out while asking people to prove they're qualified to give you a donation.

This is essentially the same as trying to get grants and funding. You'd do a lot more work than this to get money and you might not ask if the funder is qualified to give you that money (unless there's some fear they'll hijack your project).

Rob Mack
Serena wrote on 6/14/2009, 11:17 PM
Of course the majority of indie films are non-profit; the nature of the film business (unfortunately). I don't see being invited to participate as insulting, but getting me to respond requires them putting a good and attractive case. There is no point in getting involved in dud and unpromising projects and somewhere there must be the sound prospect of an end payoff (not necessarily money and it might be the furthering of a promising young talent). A name in a speedy end credit is no reward in a unwatched production, and in fact might do one more harm than good (should anyone read the credits). So the first question (if there is little money) is "why should I want to be involved?". After satisfying that we can talk about what I can bring to the production and the degree to which my skills and I are in sympathy with other elements. Very easy and not at all embarrassing to say "no" to no money.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/15/2009, 5:03 AM

"WOW do I sence some Snobery here..."

If you do sense any snobbery, it's of your own making.

This has nothing to do with snobbery. It has everything to do with professionalism. You evidently didn't watch the video or read the article.

I challenge you to ask any other professional in any other field to work for near nothing. Then return and share your experience with the rest of us.

Ray and Serena hit the nail on the head.


rmack350 wrote on 6/15/2009, 8:26 AM
Well, Jay, while I'm in agreement with your sentiment I don't quite see it from the same angle.

People do donate their time, sometimes people donate their professional skills. Doctors sometimes do it, lawyers sometimes do it, carpenters do it, etc, etc.

In some cases there's a bit of mutual testing. A charity that connects doctors in the US with rural communities in Cambodia probably needs to know the doctor's qualifications. Conversely, the doctor needs to know what the organization's mission is.

There's no need to be overreactive about these things. It's very easy to ignore a plea for free labor and I don't see anything wrong with asking for it here (except that this isn't a job board and you could get your post killed for soliciting, I suppose).

The OP might figure out though that "worthy projects" are a dime a dozen and they need to make the same sort of pitch to a DP or an editor that they'd make to a potential funder. Once they figure that out I'd think they'd focus on the funding because they can use *money* for all sorts of things while free labor is pretty narrow in scope. Money is a very flexible tool.

Generally, editing happens over a stretch of time and the OP and an editor would have to get their deal sorted out clearly before starting. The editor still needs to pay the bills so they have to agree on the scope of work and the conditions under which the editor can put aside the project or exit entirely. Remember, EVERYONE else will be paying the editor more for their time.

Rob Mack

Editguy43 wrote on 6/15/2009, 8:59 AM
Jay,
If you read my second post I believe I recanted my first statment, and see where you re coming from, and no I at first i did not see the video, I made a from the hip response and it was WRONG of me to do so.
As for asking any other professional to work for near nothing I have and they did, but it ws a very small project and I was new to the business and I asked for just a little of thier time. It was a good experience, but I do understand about a long commitment and use your own equipment and recieve no pay that is not fair.

I see everyones point about time and equipment and such, and the way that this was gone about.

I also agree with Ray and Serena.

My statement on Snobery was misplaced and unwarented I do apologise for that, I have very much enjuyed my time in this forum and have learned many things, being here also motivated me to get my certification. I have become a better Vegas editor from all the comments here, so I intended no harm or malice towards anyone.

As I said it was a misinformed statement. Please forgive me..

PaulB
MUTTLEY wrote on 6/15/2009, 9:28 AM
My issue Rob is that this is that this approach of finding people to work for free, many going so far as to insist that the persons have their own equipment, is becoming the rule not the exception. And the more this type of thing is allowed and tolerated by creatives the more it devalues out industry as a whole. The majority of the time the ones who post this kind of thing don't know their butts from a hole in the ground and are clueless as to how to make a successful project.

From time to time I get emails from people starting out who have seen my work and offer to intern because they want to learn how to do what I do. That's flattering and depending on what I have going on I'll occasionally have one along in addition to my usual crew. I enjoy sharing what I've picked up over the years and don't mind passing it on. I've also hired some back on future gigs. But they come to me, I'm not out there soliciting for people to donate their time and their talents for cold pizza and a kick in the a**.

Yes, we have all probably done a bit of free labor along the way and it's not beyond me to devote time to a project for charity or worthy cause. But most of these posts are NOT that. They're someone trying to build a name for themselves who want to ride on the backs of the talent they somehow manage to sucker into their project. They're not looking to teach someone, they're looking for pro's who have experience and equipment that they can exploit. They expect them to submit their work to be scrutinized for a chance to work for free on projects they plan on waving around and saying "Look what I did Look what I did!". And again, what qualifies as non-profit? Where's the proof of that? So if somehow one of these projects were to get picked up are you telling me that ALL the money raised is going to go to charity? And even if so (which I highly doubt) is the person doing the project going to get reimbursed for their expenses? What about their time and effort? Am I one of those?

Most of these don't even offer "deferred" payment anymore, which is another buzz word I tend to get annoyed with seeing as 99.999 percent of the time there will never be any money made to pay off anyone but that's a whole nother rant.

Yes Rob, there are worthy causes but these kind of posts are rarely them. Yes, I could ignore posts like this but that would only validate them. I do not think it would be right to just sit idly by and allow others who may not know better to get sucked into having their equipment used, time wasted, and talents exploited.

Could the OP be legit? Sure. Might it be a great opportunity? Maybe. But I don't think it's fair to think or suggest that others on the forums shouldn't raise concerns so that anyone considering doing this type of work can go in with full knowledge of what their getting themselves into.

- Ray
Some of my stuff on Vimeo
Me On Twitter
Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/15/2009, 10:07 AM

Rob, Ray provided a better explanation that I ever could.

Also, when did I say people don't donate their time?


Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/15/2009, 10:08 AM

Paul, everything is cool. No offense taken on my end.

Thanks!


rmack350 wrote on 6/15/2009, 5:43 PM
Jay, I was responding to this: I challenge you to ask any other professional in any other field to work for near nothing. Then return and share your experience with the rest of us.

Look, on the one hand I marvel at the special type of pathology that makes budding filmmakers with big ideas think that people should thank them for the opportunity to work for free and maybe even buy some gear to do the job, and on the other hand I feel like they're welcome to try.

Maybe it's worthwhile roasting the perpetrator alive so that everyone else gets the idea. I'd probably focus on warning the potential victims, although I doubt anyone involved really would think of this as a perp/victim relationship.

If someone here thought they might like to edit a thing like this, for free and with their own gear, that's their business. They need to really think about placing a limit on the arrangement, though, so they can have a life and the producer doesn't just keep coming back for changes.

I don't see the nature of these things as having changed at all over the last 20 years. I used to get tons of these "offers" back when I worked in a rental house in the 80s. Maybe they'd offer you a promise or a percentage of their "nothing" but I usually preferred they offer something more realistic, like lunch and snacks. Deferred payments almost never happen.

Rob Mack
Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/16/2009, 4:33 AM

"Jay, I was responding to this: I challenge you to ask any other professional in any other field to work for near nothing. Then return and share your experience with the rest of us."

Rob, that statement neither negates or denies the fact that professionals "donate" their services at one time or another. What it's saying is, if you need a plumber, call him up and tell him you'll give him the privledge of fixing your leaking pipes, although you don't have the money to pay for the job. Tell him in return for full payment, you'll post a sign in your yard that he fixed your pipes. Then ask him to send you his resume and some references before you are willing to consider him for the job. See what happens.

Secondly, as I stated above, the OP claims to be a filmmaker. He is the one making the ptich, not the "worthy organization." He is in this to make money. As the old saying goes, "Beggars can't be choosers." There is a HUGH difference between being approached by a producer and an organization regarding any given project--regarless of it's "worthiness."

I never questioned anyone's right to work with the OP, did I? All I did was raise a red flag to those who may not have the experience the rest of us do that the OP was not doing anyone here any favors.

It all boils down to approach, as Serena pointed out so well.

EDIT:
Rob, I went back and re-read one your posts above. Evidently we're saying the same thing ("Beggars...". Perhaps the limitations of "text" communications is preventing us (or at least me) from seeing we're on the same page here.

You have my apologies for the lack of effective communication.