max bitrate mp4 on usb for tv?

ushere wrote on 9/9/2014, 8:08 AM
feel like a noobie ;-(

client just asked to know what is the highest bit rate available for 1080p playable for a usb plugged into a sony bravia. can't find any actual figures on the net...

Comments

Former user wrote on 9/9/2014, 8:13 AM
Don't know for sure, but it can't be higher than the USB stick can transfer.
musicvid10 wrote on 9/9/2014, 8:15 AM
There is no firm answer, as usb media and video bitrates vary greatly. May handle peaks of 25 Mbps, but sustained bitrates are much lower. A lot of that depends on the decoder, although h/w decoders are generally pretty good.

Find the highest average bitrate that will play without hesitating, and back off another 10% or so. Compression is a mixed bag, because the smaller files may actually play back worse than bigger, less efficient ones.

johnmeyer wrote on 9/9/2014, 9:46 AM
Musicvid is exactly correct: there is no set answer.

I just recently tried playing a variety of MP4 files from a thumb drive into my main entertainment center. I first tried plugging directly into the TV set. Some of the videos played fine, others had significant jerkiness as the TV tried to keep up, but failed.

I then plugged the stick into my Denon receiver and had a similar experience. I didn't keep track of exactly which ones failed, and wasn't trying to determine an exact bitrate threshhold for failure, but I think it was similar.

I then plugged the stick into my son's 5-year old Xbox. It did a better job of reading the higher rate videos, but will still not able to smoothly play any of the 60p video.

I think you are going to find that this is an almost impossible thing to determine.

Call For Caution

In fact, this is a warning call to all of those on this forum who keep recommending delivery on a thumb drive rather than on DVD or Blu-Ray. Those two are standards, and if you conform to those standards, you have virtually a 100% probability that the client will be happy with your work. By contrast, if you put video on a thumb drive, you have zero assurance that the client can play it. Maybe they can, and maybe they can't. You won't know until you get the call. If you have one client, you can work this out beforehand. However, if your work is being distributed to hundreds (as mine often is), then life is more complicated.

I have run into this many times because I usually include MP4 files on the data portion of my DVDs. Those MP4s are encoded to play on iPhones. However, as most of you know, the early iPhones only play low-res MP4s, and the encoding restrictions are significant. The newer iPhones can handle more advanced video, but are still restricted. So, which encoding standard do you include when there is only room on the disc to include just one?

Finally, just to further muddy the waters, if there are any answers or guidelines for doing this, those guidelines will have to include a LOT more than just bitrate. While it is true that the file size is completely determined by bitrate, and nothing else, this is not true of a given product's ability to play the file. Instead, this is determined by ALL of the following:

Average bitrate
Peak bitrate
Audio bitrate
Audio format (AC-3, MP3, PCM)
Resolution (e.g., 640x480, 1280x720, 1920x1080)
Framerate (24, 25, 30, 60)
Inerlaced
PAR (maybe ...)
Constant vs. Variable bitrate
Profile (Baseline, Main, High -- e.g., iPhone won't play High)
Codec
Format (AVC, Transport (m2ts), MP4)

There are probably more.


john_dennis wrote on 9/9/2014, 3:31 PM
I just had an occasion to read the manual for my new Sony TV. The manual states clearly the parameters of the files that it can play except for maximum bit rate. I don't have a good sample of all the TVs, but this one covers the subject effectively. I'd say that's a step in the right direction.

Just the pages of interest.

As for bit rate, I'd stick to the ones for which there is some type of "standard".

ATSC - MPEG2 - <19.3 mbps
AVCHD-.m2ts-18 mbps
Blu-ray- .m2ts - target 22 mbps <35 mbps

I most often use MP4 for upload so the typical bit rates of the files when I happen to watch them on TV using usb are in the 8-12 mbps range.

Even then, I don't expect everyone will be sucessful with every media player in all devices.
ushere wrote on 9/9/2014, 6:45 PM
ah, so i wasn't far out when i told him i didn't think there's any DEFINED standard.

thanks gents, most appreciated.

meanwhile, just to pick up on john's well considered observation:

i haven't produced any client dvd's in the last few years, it's all been net, or file. however, realising the limitations of older systems, etc., (and fortunately working with shorter program lengths (ie around 30min), i always include two mp4 versions. one a widescreen sd and a second at 720p @ 8mbs. they are also clearly labeled or referenced as 'standard def' and 'high def'.

the only 'problem' i've ever encountered over the last few years were clients actually wanting 1080p versions included as well* - i always explain the differences and need for sd versions....

*i usually do 1080p @ 10mbs.

Grazie wrote on 9/10/2014, 1:26 AM
I have a client that insists ( yeah, not so much now . . ) on calling the MP4 he can play on his laptop a DVD. Why? 'cos anything, ANYTHING he "sees" is still a DVD. At least he doesn't call it a VHS Tape! My experience has been that even now the public have difficulty to discern between:

that which is delivery<>that which is the device<>that which is the chosen platform for dissemination.

Bless......

I now assume NEW client's know nothing, and hastily build a technical 101 relationship to rapidly clamber to base-camp.

Oh, as an aside, I recently asked my nephew's the son if he'd still got my father's VHS tape on this and that - response: "What is a VHS tape?"

Grazie

ushere wrote on 9/10/2014, 2:57 AM
completely fooled a friends 6 yr old with a 45. (not a magnum one either;-)
johnmeyer wrote on 9/10/2014, 12:00 PM
I would say that 75% of my clients still ask for a "CD" when they mean DVD.

And the music industry still refers to "album sales" when talking about sales of physical units.

And people still ask me to "tape a performance."

Sometimes they even ask me to "film the performance."

Former user wrote on 9/10/2014, 12:04 PM
Johnmeyer,

LOL
And people still ask me to "tape a performance."

Sometimes they even ask me to "film the performance."

I find myself doing this as well. I wonder what term we could coin for recording videos now.

1) "digitize a performance"
2) "video a performance"
3) "camera a performance"
4) or is "record a performance" enough. (kind of vague since recording can mean so many things.)



videoITguy wrote on 9/10/2014, 4:59 PM
this term non-sense was totally covered ad-nauseam in at least three threads in the last year...

Blu-ray 1080 HD remains the standard delivery method of quality today. DVD, and CD are of the past. 4k Blu-ray by 2015 - film with your cameras and record events so they can be placed on high-quality media and be preserved - not throw-aways like low-bit rate compromises in MP4, silly usb sticks etc.
johnmeyer wrote on 9/10/2014, 5:51 PM
this term non-sense was totally covered ad-nauseam in at least three threads in the last year...I read all those threads, but I sure didn't read them the same way you did.

First of all, I have no idea what "low-bit rate compromises in MP4, silly usb sticks"means. One can deliver the same bitrate on an MP4 USB drive as on a Blu-Ray. As for "silly," that simply doesn't make sense. I see nothing less serious about a thumb drive than a round shiny disc. Different? Yes. Silly? No.

More to the point, in those previous threads in this forum that you reference, most people stated that they did NOT deliver on Blu-Ray, and instead the majority either delivered on DVD; via streaming; or on solid state media.

In addition, I provided hard data that showed that even now, eight years after Blu-Ray first shipped, DVD sales of movies outstrips Blu-Ray 2:1. I refer you to this thread:

How are Blurays going where you are?

Search for my user name and you will see my post. Those are good, valid numbers that I linked to. Also, my comparison to the acceptance of Blu-Ray after its introduction eight years ago (30% penetration of movie sales after eight years) compared to the amazing penetration of DVD after its first shipment in 1997 is pretty stark: Blu-Ray is most certainly not a failure, but it is certainly not the "standard delivery method of quality today."

Ask Netflix about that one. DVDs still make up most of their rentals; streaming is their model for future growth; and Blu-Ray is a backwater that barely counts.

I realize that you deliver on Blu-Ray, you feel comfortable with it, and everyone around you seems to be using it. However, the anecdotal evidence from those threads in this forum that you reference indirectly, and the one I just linked to, indicates that most others on this forum do not have that same experience.

The one place where I do agree is that Blu-Ray is a standard and therefore if the client has a Blu-Ray player, and you know how to make a Blu-Ray disc, you won't have to worry about whether the client can play it. The same is not true for HD on a thumb drive, and so the point of this thread is to see if we can discover a "least common denominator" for delivery.
videoITguy wrote on 9/10/2014, 6:16 PM
Having been with Blu-ray almost since its inception, I do well understand the issues that have arisen with the media form, as to technical, political, and economic reasoning. It has been discussed almost everywhere including this forum for years and years.
I call it a consumer standard, and by that I mean that it sets the bar from which all other consumer driven video is trailing. It comes in a form that is utterly simple and uncomplicated for the consumer.
Any producer shooting video today, most likely with HD capable sources, but even if it is in better old SD equipment, will and should benefit by producing and committing production to Blu-ray. So TODAY , the least you can do, if you are intent only giving away DVD's - but make sure your project is set to take-in HD as a source, and be able to deliver on an HD output tomorrow.
ushere wrote on 9/10/2014, 6:43 PM
blu-ray NEVER even figured in my experience. straight from dvd to file delivery, whether usb or net.

i have a wide range of friends and clients established over many years in the industry and i can count on two hands blu-ray player owners. (and of those many sit idly by cable / media players)

i have nothing against blu-ray, but it is 'old' technology and has little future in the general scheme of things as i see it.
Lovelight wrote on 9/10/2014, 6:52 PM
Blu ray went 4k, so ... 28 Mbps is the answer. Have to dmux to keep video & audio in sync.
PeterDuke wrote on 9/15/2014, 4:16 AM
“In fact, this is a warning call to all of those on this forum who keep recommending delivery on a thumb drive rather than on DVD or Blu-Ray. Those two are standards, and if you conform to those standards, you have virtually a 100% probability that the client will be happy with your work. By contrast, if you put video on a thumb drive, you have zero assurance that the client can play it.”

I don't deliver DVDs or BDs to the masses, but I do make CDs for members of my choir. Practice CDs only have a limited life so I (try to) save money by using low cost but not the cheapest CDs. CMC Magnetics generally works well for this purpose, but nobody tells you who actually makes the CD on the package that you can read in the store. (My last lot of Verbatim, TDK and Philips CDs were actually made by CMC)! I find that Ritek or Plasmon CDs are more likely to fail on some readers, although they play on my gear and Nero DiscSpeed reports typical errors. When this happens, I just burn to a different brand of CD (usually Taiyo Yuden) and try again until the user is happy.

The point I am making is that although CD is a standard, I cannot guarantee 100% usability. The same is probably true for DVDs and BDs.

FURTHER THOUGHT:

It must pain some people to turn their 50p or 60p video into 50i or 60i just to comply with the DVD or BD standard, even though it will ultimately be viewed on a progressive TV or computer screen.
riredale wrote on 9/15/2014, 10:20 AM
Getting back to the original question, I'd be curious to know what sustained bitrate a USB stick and a USB-input TV can handle. Don't have such a set, but I'd render a 10-second clip to maybe 5 different bitrates and see for myself where things break down. Then I'd assume that half that rate would be a good place to operate for the universe of currernt TV sets.
NormanPCN wrote on 9/15/2014, 11:30 AM
The USB2 and USB stick transfer rate are not likely a problem. Video bitrates are in Megabits per second and USB transfer is in Megabytes per second. For example, a 40 Megabit total bitrate is only around 5 Megabytes per second transfer. Even slow thumbdrives can do that speed for reading.

The real problem and unknown is the decoder of the device. The point of this thread. Since we are talking about fixed hardware decoders, one might need to consider the video decode buffer size. Again an undefined value.

I think I would start with the Blu-ray spec. Everybody and his mother are building decoder chips that at least meet that spec. Plentiful and cheap. These days most will be less restrictive with regards to frame rate, although 50/60p at 1080 would likely be problematic for wide compatibility. Encoding for Blu-ray with regards to video buffer requirements is well defined. Blu-ray bitrate spec pretty good. It is way better than we get from cable or satellite TV.
johnmeyer wrote on 9/15/2014, 11:41 AM
The point I am making is that although CD is a standard, I cannot guarantee 100% usability.You are making a different point. Your point concerns the quality of the media and yes, if you use really bad media, then the error rate after you burn is going to be astronomical, and some players will not play it, and many of the discs will become unplayable in a few years.

I strongly suggest you re-think the economics of what you are doing. You can get very high quality CDs for something like $0.40 each. I realize that many are on a tight budget, but I really cannot imagine a situation where saving $0.10 - $0.15 per disc is going to make any difference whatsoever in the budget.


Getting back to the original question, I'd be curious to know what sustained bitrate a USB stick and a USB-input TV can handle. I thought this had been answered, and the answer is: there is no answer. And, the reason there is no answer, as already posted, is that there is no standard or even a reasonable consensus as to what sort of video each device will accept. I listed above all the variables, and if you look at the specs for various TVs and other media players, you will find different specs for every single one.

The best generic advice is to use 720p instead of 1080i or 1080p; use MP4; use Main instead of High profile, even though that will reduce quality; and turn off all of Vegas' variable frame rate check boxes (not to be confused with variable bitrate.)
musicvid10 wrote on 9/15/2014, 4:03 PM
Yes to all of the above, with one point of clarification.
It is more meaningful to me to think of Main Profile as producing the same quality as High Profile, but at a higher bitrate and file size. IOW, any compression scheme is great, given enough bits.

Pushed to their limits (unconstrained bitrate), Baseline Profile is better quality than either Main or High Profile, because certain types of predictive frames aren't permitted.

Taken in the converse, it is hard to explain to folks that High Profile doesn't intrinsically produce better quality than Main, but the same quality in a smaller space, owing to compression efficiency. Once the optimum quality is reached, there is no point in throwing more bits at it than needed.

Took me some time to adjust my thinking to a quality metric rather than traditional bandwidth; but with h264 and h265, it's the one everyone will need to relate to going forward.

The mathematical model for deciding optimum quality vs. size at a given compression efficiency is not unlike Y=1-(e^-x) where Y is the quality metric (theoretical parity is 1.0) and X is the bitrate. (Note that the only Quadrant I in my screenshot actually exists.)
;?)

ottor wrote on 9/15/2014, 4:05 PM
>> Getting back to the original question, I'd be curious to know what sustained bitrate a USB stick and a USB-input TV can handle. Don't have such a set, but I'd render a 10-second clip to maybe 5 different bitrates and see for myself where things break down. Then I'd assume that half that rate would be a good place to operate for the universe of currernt TV sets.

As an example, I put a 2500kpbs mp4 on a USB stick. Although the file is nominally (or average) 2500kbps, in complex scenes there are peaks of about 6000kbps. On my Bravia TV (about 3 years old) the playback fails when it comes across those peak bitrates. The same USB stick plugged into my Sony BD player (which is connected to the same TV) has no difficulty playing the whole file. It seems you can't assume anything with USB playback.
johnmeyer wrote on 9/15/2014, 5:53 PM
Interesting points about the effect of profiles. I'll admit to not really understanding what they control, so I searched and, as usual, found a Wikipedia entry:

AVC Profiles

Scroll down a little and you'll find a table which gives you a snapshot of what features are supported in each profile. Unfortunately, even though I am somewhat technical, I do not understand the implications of each of these features. However, from my own experience, I think that one of the major implications is that the higher profiles require more CPU power to decode. If I am correct, this explains why most of the early-generation iThingies required Baseline profiles for video encoding. The later generation gadgets now have a lot more processing power, and you can encode using Main.

If my assumptions are correct, then this same logic may dictate whether you will be successful getting a device like a TV set to play your video, and if you want the most compatibility, you should encode using a lesser profile.

I will definitely defer to someone who has more knowledge about this than I do.
musicvid10 wrote on 9/15/2014, 6:33 PM
Higher profiles = more efficient compression = more time to encode and decode = more CPU to decode = smaller bandwidth at the same quality.
That's it in a nutshell. It's the source of the expression, "Speed, quality,size. Pick two."

It's interesting to note the motivation behind High Profile. It was proposed by broadcasters as a means of stuffing more video streams into a pipeline without sacrificing end quality.

NormanPCN wrote on 9/15/2014, 6:48 PM
The biggest thing to understand about High/Main/Baseline profiles is that each higher profile provides more features, tools in the shed, to compress the video. As musicvid10 said, they do not by default provide better quality.

When you encode to a target bitrate then better compression can and should provide better quality. Most encoders like Sony AVC, and Mainconcept AVC in Vegas encode to a target bitrate. With x264 CRF mode (~constant perceptual quality), this is not the case.

Each encoding feature(tool) requires more work on decode. CABAC in Main and High profile is a big compute hog. Main/High profile allow B-frames which add decode overhead.

FWIW
I only tried one video on my TV. Samsung 6300, 3-4 years old (I can't remember)
It was x264 AVC encoded, 1080p30, High Profile, Medium preset, 19.5Mbps average (specifically crf 22). Max bitrate is about 40Mbps.
musicvid10 wrote on 9/15/2014, 7:25 PM
Yes, if it's going to be streamed, we need to keep an eye on peak bitrates, using vbv-max setting.