Midi Remote Hardware Control

Rednroll wrote on 1/19/2003, 11:55 AM

I'ld like to hear about other users experiences using external Hardware midi devices to control software. I recently had a short discussion with Dave Hill about how I feel not having Vegas support midi Hardware control surfaces has always been a show stopper for pro users. My digital mixer (Yamaha 03D) has a "Midi Remote" function, where I can control external devices, like other mixers, and software. It specifically says in the manual I can control "Protools" and "user defined" commands for other software with this function. It will control Faders, Mutes, Solos,Pans and transport controls.

With my understanding of MIDI, I've always thought midi commands, where in a standard format, so my view has always thought that all mixers that have this functionality, most likely had to stick to some kind of midi guideline. Therefore, implementing this functionality in software would not be that difficult, because you could just develope this without having to develope for each particular mixer/control surface available. Dave informed me that, that is not the case.

So I'm looking for feedback from other users, that may be using this function with other software that has this functionality like Sonar,Nuendo,Cubase or Cool Edit Pro. If you have a digital mixer like a Yamaha 02R, 03D, or 01V and have used this functionality with other software, I'ld like to hear your experiences and feedback. I just don't have a lot of knowledge in this area and would like to clear up some grey areas, because I haven't been able to try these things out because I'm a Vegas user and don't feel like going back to using Pro Tools, because I like Vegas so much better and plus I'm a PC guy who likes my choice of Sound Cards without having to pay the big bucks for the Digi Design hardware.

Dave said, they've been working on hardware controler support for Vegas, but was looking for a hardware designer to jump on board with them. This made me think of Mackie HUI, or I just saw a Demo of Reason 2.0 with a USB hardware control surface which was specially designed for Reason. So basically this meant 1 hardware control surface, specially designed to function with that software. Where my thinking has always been and the reason why MIDI has been around for 20 years, is that it's a STANDARD, low cost solution. I've not worked with the Mackie HUI, but thought this also connected Via MIDI and was a reason why Steinberg software was able to support this control surface, along with the Yamaha options available.

Any insight about Midi Remote hardware control surfaces would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Red

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Comments

pwppch wrote on 1/23/2003, 11:06 AM

The scrubber at low speeds has been improved a lot since the beta (and the latest internal betas.) Better reponse time. Finer detail. I await your feedback.

Peter

CDM wrote on 1/23/2003, 11:17 AM

Great news. I'm looking forward to testing

MixNut wrote on 3/27/2003, 3:16 AM

As a long-time Vegas user at home [representin' v-dot-1] and a "pro" engineer on more expensive, hardware-based systems at work, I'm elated to finally see in-depth discussion of hardware controllers for Vegas. It's an enormous, gaping whole in Vegas' functionality for truly "pro" recording environments and a significant hindrance at home.

While MIX controllers would be wonderful, I've not seen any discussion of EDIT controllers...

Vegas' editing paradigm is good...It's better than many/most systems out there. But, it will *never* be as fast and efficient as some other highly-regarded systems without a well-implemented hardware edit controller [ala AMS Neve AudioFile, Fairlight Binnacle, and even SADiE's "rectonomic" hardware control].

Two hands are always faster than one, and dedicated keys with audible and visible jog/scrub is faster than mousing and KB commands. [Yes, I'm sure there are some anomalous engineers out there that could smoke me and my AudioFile with a one-button Mac mouse, but generally speaking...].

Fairlight [who just went chapter 11 last week due to unexpected VC funding loss] has/had the most efficient, ergonomic, and fast hardware editing configuration I've seen. Their DREAM series hardware edit/mix controllers are/were extraordinary. We were about to order three systems when they called to say they were shutdown last week !? ;-(

Their intellectual property is up for auction right-about-now...I'd sure love to see someone worthwhile pick it all up for pennies-on-the-darra...[hint].

If ever a company had a legitimate "ProTools killer" to sell, it was Fairlight with DREAM. Add Vegas Video, DVD authoring, batch conversion, etc. to Fairlight's ridiculous DSP backbone, controllers and editor and ... *dayam*.

Ahhh...to dream.

My question, however...Has there been any discussion of a hardware EDIT controller?

JohanAlthoff wrote on 3/27/2003, 9:15 AM

I'm pretty fresh to everything concerning control hardware (I have still to actually SEE a Logic Control, let alone play with one) but I took my first step and purchased a Contour ShuttlePro as a kind of R'nD towards future use, and I must say it really changed my way of working.

I tend to use my ears much more now that I can scrub and get my hands dirty with the audio, jogging back and forth, really getting to know the material at different pitches and directions. It was incredibly much easier to find the start of a soft-attack voice phrase (beginning with an s- or a f-sound) by scrubbing backwards in rather than zooming in, marking, playing back to double-check and zooming out again. If only the effects were enabled at other than 1:1 speeds, I could hear the noise gate kick in and cut the sample right there.

So, Peter, scrubbing is not only for the tape-heads. I found it to encourage using my ears rather than my eyes to make editing decisions. Also, by holding the mouse in one hand and my ShuttlePro in the other, I can choose to go pixel-specific at any time. Occasionally I have to type in a name or carry out a command not bound on my ShuttlePro, but generally that was a very convenient way of working.

But to the point of the discussion: Going hardware-supported in the fashion discussed here would be a HUGE thing for Vegas, and I strongly and fully support it. I'm very confident in the way SoFo create their editing methodology, and the day it happens I'll be all over it.

(BTW, I did a half-decent scratching session in Vegas with a drumloop and a level designer in the next room who's a hobby rapper. When will we see extented DJ features in Vegas?! =)

Rednroll wrote on 3/27/2003, 9:15 AM

I believe the JL Cooper and the contour shuttle pro (http://www.contouravs.com/cav_shuttlepro_info.html) will do editing controls as you mentioned.

You get 13 programmable buttons plus a shuttle/jogwheel. I haven't used them, so maybe someone else can give you more details. This is probably one of my next purchases. I have been a beta tester for Vegas since V2 and am very familiar with the Neve audiofile. I won't take 100% of the credit, but I have explained in great detail in the past to Sonic Foundry, some of the eccential editing features that the audiofile has and how it is used in a pro studio environment. Since then "Slip" editing features, nudge (1 frame at a time), and the ability to keep 2 events together and just move the editing point of where the cut happens and also ripple editing have been implemented in Vegas. I like to think that I had some influence on that and is why Vegas is now the best editing program I have ever used.

The contour shuttle pro allows you to assign keys, which Vegas has keyboard assignments for moving events, so with that and support of a job/shuttle wheel you SHOULD get all the functionality of a Neve Audiofile, except at a cost of $40,000 less with unlimited tracks a better user-interface and a thousand more features.

Hope this helps,
Red

MixNut wrote on 3/27/2003, 12:29 PM

Rednroll,

Glad to hear there's another AudioFiler out there!

I've long requested some essential features of the "big time" editors and had a couple implemented. There is one HUGE feature that seems *almost* already there [if stolen from Vegas's video track paradigm] that would move Vegas ever-closer to being the end-all/be-all editor:

Implement the over-under/checkerboard track view, as possible with video tracks, for audio tracks! This would closely emulate the trim editor in AudioFile and SADiE...Both invaluble tools. The over-under/checkerboard view is a much easier way to deal with beat alignment and relative synch than is overlapping overlapping. As of now, I often create a second track and "checkerboard" edit files that way...The downside, of course, is twice the number of plug-ins, duplicitous automation and no auto crossfade.

Would this be a difficult feature to implement SF?

MixNut

MixNut wrote on 3/27/2003, 9:07 PM

Klyon says, "...the only reason to use a real console is simply that it sounds better. Of course, that's a pretty big reason, but it doesn't extend to control surfaces."
---------------------
Sorry to jump in so many weeks later, but Klyon...Are you HIGH?!

Mixing with a button-per-function console/controller is desirable for *speed* and immediate access to whatever you need to grab next. Mousing through plugin pages and waiting for setting changes to affect the audio not yet through the buffer slows things down A LOT. There's also the aspect of using two hands to make two automation moves at once.

A well-implemented controller that truly emulates an analog console is *far* superior to none at all...In speed, freedom, and creative flow. That said, a poorly implemented and sloppily connected controller is worse than no controller at all. I feel qualified to maket this statement since I work on both kinds of systems on a daily basis.

And don't even get me started on talkback, external, two-track return, mix-minus, and multichannel monitoring without *some* actual piece of gear to administrate these essentials...

MixNut

Geoff_Wood wrote on 3/28/2003, 9:59 PM

Want a scrub-knob ? Get a Contour ShuttlePro - I have one - I never have felt the need use the scrub wheel. The JLC CS32 looks good too : http://www.jlcooper.com/pages/cs32.html

I listen to audio while looking at the waveform, and would like to think I know and understand what I am recording/seeing. If I want to identify a specific anonymous spot, i hit "M" while listening, and there is a happy little marker to show me exact, next time.

geoff

duncan wrote on 4/1/2003, 7:53 AM

>>As of now, I often create a second track and "checkerboard" edit files that way...The downside, of course, is twice the number of plug-ins, duplicitous automation and no auto crossfade.<<

I use vegas to cut audio like this all the time; ok so you have to run multiple plug-ins, but the pc seems to absorb the extra work and it means you can tweak the plug-ins for each section of audio. if they're truly checkerboarded then you'll only really be using two or three plug-ins at once anyway. and it means you can adjust the xfades exactly how you want them (my main reason for choosing this method). plus you don't get all that arsing about trying to find bits of audio that have disappeared under the trimmed ends.
but yes, high-time SF implemented some sort of midi control. in my professional capacity, I've just shouted at quantel for the same thing ("midi's been around for 20-odd years, what the f*ck's wrong with you people?" &c)

duncan.