My 113th AES review


Chienworks wrote on 10/15/2002, 6:27 AM
JoeD, so i guess that means you don't want your refund anymore.
kilroy wrote on 10/15/2002, 11:54 AM

"Is there a point-by-point comparison (in chart form or whatever) of various sound apps? I'd like to see how VV stacks up to the mighty Samp."

Don't know of any, but in addition to the three SoFo apps that I own and use *all* the time (and which I am satisfied with) I also own a number of other high profile audio progs that I also use often and am satisfied with. One is Samplitude, which I have used for a loooong time.

You want a blow by blow comparison between Vegas and Samp. Out of respect for SoFo what I can give you is a few areas where Vegas rocks over Samp. What I won't do is use this forum to "sell" another competitor's prog by touting any advantages either real or imagined that that "other" product may or may not have. Simple reason...we all have different approaches to what we do, and one man's wine is another man's poison.

As a Samp user these are what *I* would consider to be Vegas strong points.

-faster more fluid execution of the majority of common editing requirements

-more consistent command syntax

-more intuative and less steep learning curve

-more logical and swifter file handling I\O features

-cleaner interface that is easily navigated and unobtrusive

This is obviously a short list. For me the biggie is the overall speed with which I can perform 90% of the commonly called for editing\mixing tasks that most of us (I'm making an assumption here obviously) have need of no matter what particular vein of audio we are into. Narrowing it down further I would say that Vegas is one of the best, possibly *the* best app you could hope to find for very fast assembly editing tasks where a large number of files must be handled quickly and efficiently.

A bit of a personal aside here... It has been my experience that all in one apps do not deliver the same quality results as several well integrated purpose specific progs and really good hardware working along side. A nice dream that I am still wanting to believe is possible, but in so much as it is a bit far sighted to believe one man can do the same quality job as a number of specialists working closely together, methinks it is a bit of a pipe dream at this point. What is more than liable to happen is that an already complicated knot is made that much more elaborate (tangled) and that much more ungainly in its execution.

Also, the summing engines in most of the highly acclaimed apps we hear about\use are, again my opinion, overrated. Some are good, some are bad, none are great. The best sounding *all* software mixes (in terms of depth and breadth of soundstage, clarity *and* warmth etc.) I ever heard were summed in Creamware Scope systems. Those dudes have got some amazing code happening. Not a plug folks, it just sounds right that's all. I have also heard very good things from the Pyramix systems but not actually spent time on the platform, which by the way *looks* butt ugly to say the best. Another "handsome is as handsome" does approach that I'm sure will cause a fair share of dry heaving among the "dress for success" crowd used to glam interfaces and such.

Finally, as far as opinions on what software app is going to be the best for whoever, there is only one right way to make an informed decision you can really rely on, and that is get time, preferably lots of it, on the progs you are interested in doing the work that you do.
Rednroll wrote on 10/15/2002, 4:39 PM
JoeD: "Does anybody give a rat's prick what YOU thought of AES?"

JoeD: "This is EXACTLY what I mean about "sticking to the topic"...because NO!! I don't want to quivel with you...I would like to see more noise raised so I can see this app stay."

Hmmmm, ever hear of the saying "practice what you preach?"
My original post was to help....through my own personal experience so we can "see this app stay." You condemned me for it and in no way where you "sticking to the topic". Can you stop with the hypocracy already? It's this hypocracy and constant swearing and name calling is why nobody in this forum wants to even read through a post by you. You offer NOTHING, so I think I speak for a lot of the users on this forum when I say "Please say NOTHING until you grow up and apologize to everyone in this forum for your rude nonconstructive behavior."

Yours Truly,
JoeD wrote on 10/15/2002, 8:06 PM
Hmmm, Is it a cold day in hell yet?

You heard what I said about reporting trade show crapola. It's a complete wank from begginning to end. Posing as if you're "anybody" at these trade shows, tossing out names like a day old salad.

Wann "help"? Do the backtracking through hardware/software that is currently in use and post success/failure track records. Review the best workarounds, driver versions, nauseum and "report" that.
In a way Pipeline is doing it with SF and RME.
That is help. Stating obvious info on SF and AES is so transparent it's not even funny - it's for YOU ...not the users here.

Trade shows are a friggin joke. God knows i dread going to them.
"Let's see what new gizmo they CRAMMED out for deadline this time" (when the truth and interest is really - WHERE ARE THESE GIZMOS GONNA BE DOWN THE ROAD?

Hearing about cake/PT, etc and "why SF isn't at AES"? We KNOW why SF isn't there...they've given up on any coherent marketing of Vegas (is this new news though?...really?).
They can't get positive feedback, draw or the like with the competition already offering features people want today. Again, this has been stated).

Lastly, reddinbreath...I'll say what I feel THE WAY I WANT TO baby. Gonna have to suck it up and offer banter ON THE SUBJECT or hit the IGNORE button (naw, it's so much easier to hide behind my tone here than any of the truths just keep taking the easy raod).

Since when is agreeing with complacency "helping" btw?
Yeah, THAT'LL keep your app around (sarcasm).

hugs n kisses,
JoeD wrote on 10/15/2002, 8:13 PM
To chienwok and charlesderning:


You two need to go back and read the post. I want a refund on v1 and v2. Not v3 (as it already has CDA5...err...yeah).

Until you read the fine print...blow baby.

I can't keep repeating the same info HOPING you two eggheads "get it" at some point. You're on your own.

JoeD wrote on 10/15/2002, 8:20 PM

I know you love vegas...but it's getting a bit odd hearing you raving about Vegas and getting PO'd at the notion of another app when Vegas is the only app that has this problem. All other apps work except vegas...yet you still insist on vegas.

I mean, I have work to get done...I dunno about your situation. If I had you're problems now...I would have kept the RME (great hardware) and already dove in with Sonar 2 with a quickness after seeing it doesn't have these problems.

I like vegas too, but I like clients and $ a little moreso.


send that system to SF as I said a ways back.

If I had work to get done, I wouldn't be touting the one app that DOESN'T work...but rather getting up to speed on Sonar until you found the problem (RME or SF at fault - which is why I say, send it to SF and let them help you decipher this).

Chienworks wrote on 10/15/2002, 8:30 PM
JoeD: so you paid full price for Vegas 3 instead of getting the upgrade deal then? I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. If you took the upgrade deals and are still using version 3, then you are NOT entitled to a refund. If you paid full price for versions 2 and 3, why? Do you get that? Either way, you're whining about the big bad corporation done you wrong when you've gotten and are using what you've paid for. How are we supposed to accept your other arguments when you can't even get this point straight?
JoeD wrote on 10/15/2002, 9:23 PM
Because your not reading.
The wife picked me up a v3 butt cheap at a best buy
WAAAAAYY below SF's upgrade price.
And you'll also read why I still think it's lame for a v1 and v2 customer to have to buy V3 JUST FOR THE FEW NEW AUDIO FEATURES. Hence the term: nickel and diming. It was a$$ cheap though so I bit.

And if you really read any of this topic: I PAID $500.00 FOR V1, 299.00 FOR V2 (american music).
Sound like an upgrade price to you genius?


The only thing where I am to blame here is buying V1 and 2 in the first place.

BTW: can I ask....WHERE IS V1 AND V2 NOW???
Do you need me to make that clear as well?

Not that ANY of this stuff has ANYTHING to do with WHAT I SAY ON THE TOPIC OF SF/Vegas THESE DAYS.
Execpt for you two dingalings - who somehow live and die by this knowledge (funny how you can tell who actually WORKS with the software for $ vs. those who open the app...close it and run here to talk here about how cool it is).

Now you and your little friend scdaddle and do whatever you two do together.
This topic is tiny compared to the problems with Vegas at hand right now.
BESIDES, I KNEW THAT SF WOULD DUCK ON THAT RETURN OFFER A "SONIC_" OFFERED ON THIS FORUM (class - can you tell these two bright kids how many times I've stated this???).

It's not as big a deal if you EXPECT a company hurtin' for cash to duck out on a refund for DEAD APPLICATIONS one paid WAY TOO MUCH FOR.

PipelineAudio wrote on 10/15/2002, 9:28 PM
I've been working, just frustratingly. I keep trying to use the other apps...sonar is close, but editing wise, no cigar.

heres a weird new development:

I took the new cpu and mobo back ,and just dropped the old one back in without reinstalling windows... NO FREEZES!!!!

I installed it exactly the ssame way as always, and it was bone stock, etc....

so I ghosted, then reinstalled mods, and weird as hell starts freezing... so I reinstall the ghosted freezing

Geoff_Wood wrote on 10/16/2002, 2:44 AM
JoeD: "Does anybody give a rat's prick what YOU thought of AES?"
- So why did you read it ?

JoeD: "Trade shows are a friggin joke. God knows i dread going to them."
- So why do you go.

So I'm a dingaling too.

JoeD wrote on 10/16/2002, 4:16 AM
JoeD: "Does anybody give a rat's prick what YOU thought of AES?"
- So why did you read it ?

----> dunno. Just reading the posts.

JoeD: "Trade shows are a friggin joke. God knows i dread going to them."
- So why do you go.

---> Choice? HAD to go.

So I'm a dingaling too.

---> Great. You've pinpointed it. Now the next step is fixing it.


---> joed
Rednroll wrote on 10/18/2002, 7:03 PM
"Trade shows are a friggin joke. God knows i dread going to them."

"Posing as if you're "anybody" at these trade shows, tossing out names like a day old salad."

As I said quit with the hypocracy already. You are a joke.

Along with everyone displaying their lastest and greatest gear there are tons of seminars with industry professionals and producers from major record companies not selling a damn thing but some knowledge to share with the rest of us. Oh...but that's alright, JoeD knows everything anyways......ha!!! what a joke. As I've said, you offer this forum NOTHING, because you know NOTHING.

I caught a great seminar given by some pro's on Mixing and Mastering tips for surround sound. Bob Ludwig was one of the quest speakers. I guess Bob was just there posing as if he where someone huh? Why don't you give me some tips on how to master in surround JoeD???? huh???...come on I'm waiting!!????? OH darn...can't offer any useful advice again because you have NO experience???

Yeah....that's what we thought "Mr. Know it All"
JoeD wrote on 10/19/2002, 3:23 PM
Ummm...can anybody find quote where I claim to be this "know it all"?

Surround? No, no...I'm not living the sterile life. I record avant-guarde/jazz..anything original...whatever. But I don't waste time seeing how I can make that comet swirl around a head for "wow" factor (snoooooooooze - been there/seen it).

Just capturing great music is all I care about. Whether this involves trickery or the simple's the end result that matters.
Try it sometime before even CONSIDERING stating sh*t like this you sterile hack.
You DO NOT know me (now, more than ever, let's keep it that way please).

Rednroll wrote on 10/19/2002, 5:51 PM
Yep, just as I thought. I guess we'll know who NOT to be looking for advice when technology passes him by because he's holier than thou, and thinks educational workshops are a waste of time, and are led up by a bunch of posers. All the rest of us will be laughing as you're still in the stone age trying to convince people that surround sound technology and high bit resolution audio is a waste of time.
JoeD wrote on 10/19/2002, 9:59 PM
<<<Yep, just as I thought. I guess we'll know who NOT to be looking for advice when technology passes him by because he's holier than thou, and thinks educational workshops are a waste of time, and are led up by a bunch of posers. All the rest of us will be laughing as you're still in the stone age trying to convince people that surround sound technology and high bit resolution audio is a waste of time.>>>

Ah yes...I constantly worry as to what people here will think of me (LOL).
Where do you get that I am "trying to convince people" about anything?...I'm talking to "YOU" putz. AES: the quintessential classroom??? Ignoring technology???whaaaa???

Anybody getting a good clear picture of this reddinhood yet?
I believe it was made clear to me long ago (LOL !! - reddin...just keep jabbering's priceless. This is too easy's almost embarrassing. I'm embarrassed FOR you).

I'm...not famiiliar with your ways....your "bits" and "resolutions"...I may not understand your..."sample rates"....
but I DO know what matters to me in the long run...
and that's doing what I prefer to do.

Unfrozen Caveman Musician (Joed)
jcarney42 wrote on 10/20/2002, 3:52 PM
Rednroll, the phony blank looks and feigned ignorance you got at AES were just that, fake. Those people know who SonicFoundry is and what Vegas is (the word has gotten around so much, even the Mac folks know what Vegas is). But the last thing they want to do is compare their product to another, for any reason, especially at a trade show. It's nice of you to take the time to report what you found, so in that vein, thank you. On the other hand, you were being lied to, though it had to be fun putting them on the spot.

From what I've seen, NAB would be a better show to attend, since SoFo has transformed themselves from an Audio company to a multimedia one. Considering their financial problems, they have to pick their targets carefully.
Just my HO.
Geoff_Wood wrote on 10/20/2002, 5:15 PM
>Posted by: JoeD
>Ah yes...I constantly worry as to what people here will think of me (LOL).
>Where do you get that I am "trying to convince people" about anything?...I'm >talking to "YOU" putz. AES: the quintessential classroom??? Ignoring >technology???whaaaa???

The same charm school as Fletcher, but missed out on the 'wit' class .


JoeD wrote on 10/20/2002, 9:47 PM
Yes, thanks reddinsmoke...we would all be lost without your annual reports of wankfest 2002.
I mean, man alive...who woulda thunk that digidesign, cake, waves, and steinberg were gonna be there...AND ALL AT THE SAME TIME TOO!!!.

And Digidesign was the heavy??? WOW!! Really??? Thanks for the heads up.

Phew, gotta print this out...too much info to gather.

Unfrozen Caveman JoeD
Rednroll wrote on 10/21/2002, 8:55 AM
wow!!!'s amazing how your posts come all staggered. You must make one post, go dwell on it for a few days thinking " can I outwit that rednroll??" and a few more ideas pop into that peanut brain of yours, and then you spew that nonsense out...go dwell for a couple more days. Look at the dates original post was on 10/8, and now you've finally thought of something constructive to comment about it on 10/20? You've responded twice to the same post attacking me, without me even having to reply. No wonder events like AES are a waste of time for you, you're too dumb to understand the information that's being presented, unless you record it and review it ten times, and toss around the peanut shells for a few days. Good thing you've learned how to hit the record button in Vegas, otherwise you wouldn't understand what end is up. Bring it on baddy, show us some more of that charming wit. Should I read the first reply or wait for the composited edited post at the end of the month?
PipelineAudio wrote on 10/21/2002, 11:21 AM
for the love of jensen transformers and mogami cable. Stop harping on each other and direct your energies toward SF to make an app that can stand aginst digidesign on all counts ( except DSP, but we wont go there ).
Rednroll wrote on 10/21/2002, 2:07 PM
tell that to your buddy JoeD. That's what this post started out as, he's done nothing but throw mud on every post. As I've said, he contributes NOTHING to this forum.
JoeD wrote on 10/21/2002, 4:12 PM
Ok, I'll ease up on the kid...I was replying to carnys recent thanks.
The trade show game is a joke - plain and simple.
Shut it reddin. Leave trade show crap out of ProAudio...the two are so far removed taday it's clear as cellophane.

Speaking of hypocracy...
If anyone has muddied up the waters here it's you and your SF d**ksucking and agreeing with their TIRED responses on features. Remember the "I hang with SF techs at times..." post Reddin? I do. You're also part of the problem if you stand in aggreeance with complacency with SF. You're transparent kiddo.

The hypocrite yelled "hypocrite".

I've made my point.
Look, other than mess with reddinputz, I post here very infrequently...
it's either to get SF to wake up, question a refund, or help someone with DAW problems (any software). I still don't understand why most of you with recording/DAW issues havn't used This place is ...well...the last place for pro recording help.

But really people, SF has given you all the cold shoulder as for their intentions with V4 on up...I don't see why you'd want to join the front to WAKE SF UP at this point. Right SF? much smoke can you blow up customers a$$es anyway? (features would be bloating vegas??...puh-lease. It's more like insufficient funds and/or pure complacency).

Forget the name...they already like the hole they dug. I'm hoping many people don't own V3 so that they may make some $ on CDA5...that way ..MAYBE...some $ can be directed at R&D for the features that SHOULD be in vegas. Compete with PT with the attitude they're riding with vegas now?? NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.
I love using vegas..but it isn't gonna happen until THEY DIVE IN FULL BORE with thier flagship app (used to be forge...but it's really vegas now).


timoheil wrote on 10/22/2002, 6:10 AM
>>> The guys from Samplitude, where showing me an "event only" proceesing of effects features and boasted that they are the only software option that currently offers this option. My comment....."well it looks a lot like the same way Vegas is able to do this"......again..."really?...who's Vegas?" <<<

Samplitude can apply realtime DirectX audio-effects to obejcts/events. AFAIK Vegas can only do this in realtime with video effects. Audio-effects can only be applied to individual events destructively.
AudioMAN wrote on 11/8/2002, 6:27 PM
THEAD COPY FROM: Vegas — Audio Topics
Peter, routing question

Here's my thread:
Well, I've been reading some of the threads here and It has been obvious that some use this forum for audio purposes and some, who aparently don't have much of a life, use the forum to satisfy some inner insecurities, or maybe it's some kinda impotence problem with the ol' lady, or I think even more aparent, some have a basic agtagonisticly, inept ability to converse with peers. We all know who the later is,,, Rednroll,,, I just don't understand why this f'khead even hangs out here, it seems to be such a ordeal for him, HE IS THE KING OF "DRAMA QUEENS". WHAT I WANNA KNOW IS; how does he get into his house or car, his head must be the size of "port-a-potty", must be tough traveling around with such an ego. At this point, I guess I should be addressing him personally, Rednroll, my best advise is this, solve whatever life challenges or mental deficiencies you may have, outside of the forums, don't bring your BS to us, it is not only a waste of time to read your threads (due to the exhaustive effort you put into bashing honest, hardworking, PROFFESSIONALS). You may know a thing er two about a thing er two, but your being an A$$HOLE, far outways any talent or experience you may have acquired, and that is being quite generous,,, illuding to the fact that you may have any talent or experience. Your probably some 15 or 16 yr old, with repressive parents, who spends all his time in chat rooms, and makin' .mp3s, if your anything more, then listen to a newcomers feedback re: your obvious lack of proffessionalism and/or anger mgmt issues. Well I am feeling like this is gonna be a waste of time, as he's probably not gonna listen, and start f'king with me, what a loser. My sympathies, PipelineAudio, this guy is a real "piece of art or sh!t" depending on how one chooses to phrase it.