new HitFilm Pro and Vegas14: not working?

AVsupport wrote on 11/26/2017, 7:29 PM

I have just purchased the new release standalone HitFilm Pro (x64_6.0.7122.10801) but Vegas 14 integration doesn't seem to be working.

I have submitted a support ticket with the Hitfilm crew.

Is anyone else in the same boat? any solutions?

HitFilm Pro is supposed to be compatible with VP14 says the manual, and my previous trial [edit: this might havbe been '2017'] was working; now the Hitfilm Installer indicates a VP15 integration. There's no plugins or 'right-click' clip sent-to function, all gone. If I install the Ignite Pro Express [edit: this might be '2017'] version, I can see some Ignite plugins, but not the HitFilmPro one's. And there's no bespoke integration.

[I don't want to 'upgrade' to 15 if I don't have to for various reasons.]

Last changed by AVsupport

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Comments

AVsupport wrote on 11/27/2017, 3:32 PM

official Hitfilm response:

HitFilm Pro version 6 is all set up for Vegas integration. As soon as Magix updated Vegas 15 to support it, the integration will be in place. Apparently Magix does not have plans to update Vegas 14 to integrate with this version of HiFilm, only Vegas 15.

Ignite Pro is not included with HitFilm Pro. HitFilm Pro is a separate product now. If you want both, we do still offer that, as the HitFilm Studio bundle, which also includes Action Pro.

seems strange, since 2017 version had both installers, 14&15, is this Hitfilm passing the buck to Magix? I thought as long as its OFX conpkiant, it should work..??

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Marco. wrote on 11/27/2017, 3:54 PM

If you mean the "send to HitFilm" feature – there is no relation to OFX but it needs VP15 to be able to read the HitFilm project data. It always worked that way regarding the HitFilm integration in Vegas Pro.

"If I install the Ignite Pro Express …"

Not sure which version you mean. There is no "Ignite Pro Express". But the general rule here is your latest installation will overwrite the access from Vegas Pro to former ones. So you would need to re-install HitFilm Pro 2017 to see the Ignite Pro FX (as being part of HitFilm Pro 2017) in Vegas Pro again.

AVsupport wrote on 11/27/2017, 4:18 PM

Thank you @Marco. it was Ignite Express 2017 I was referring to, not Pro.

This is just to raise awareness that the New HitFilmPro [6 aka 2018] doesn't work with Vegas 14...(and my license for HFP6 doesn't give me 2017..which does work)

Last changed by AVsupport on 11/27/2017, 4:19 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Dexcon wrote on 11/27/2017, 5:16 PM

In VP14, I get Add HitFilm Effect when right-clicking a video event ... new HF Pro opens when selecting Add HitFilm Effect. However, the HF option does not show in VP15 even though both HF17 and new HF Pro are installed.

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 20, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

Dell Inspiron 5310 EVO 13.3"

i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

AVsupport wrote on 11/27/2017, 5:26 PM

@Dexcon seriously? You're saying HFPro integration (add HF effect..) is NOT working in VP15 either?? Have you raised this with Hitfilm before I feel forced to upgrade Vegas within the next 2 days??

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Marco. wrote on 11/27/2017, 5:46 PM

If you install Hitfilm Pro 6 then Vegas Pro 15 integration of HitFilm Pro 5 (2017) will be overwritten and failing. You would need to re-install HitFilm Pro 5 to get it back in Vegas Pro 15. Maybe you could also modify the HitFilm config file of Vegas Pro to get it back (I didn't test this yet).

AVsupport wrote on 11/27/2017, 5:50 PM

@Marco. , before I submit a support ticket, can you confirm HFP6 IS in fact working with VP15?

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Marco. wrote on 11/27/2017, 5:57 PM

No, HF Pro 6 does not yet work in Vegas Pro (what is what the support told you: it needs a modification made by Magix, first). It's HF Pro 5 which still works in VP 15 (and also the latest Ignite version).

AVsupport wrote on 11/27/2017, 6:06 PM

Not quite @Marco. HF support told me that HFP6 DOES work with VP15, but NOT with VP14 'because Magix doesn't support the integration'.

I wanted to know IF that's true..if it works..I cant try because my VP15 trial has expired and I only have VP14.

Also, Ignite is no longer 'bundled' with HFP6. needs to be purchased separately.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Marco. wrote on 11/27/2017, 6:14 PM

The quote of the support message you posted above says HF 6 will work in VP 15 as soon as Magix would have updated VP 15 to support it. It not yet happened.

AVsupport wrote on 11/27/2017, 6:19 PM

..that clarifies it, Thanks Marco!

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

AVsupport wrote on 11/28/2017, 5:27 PM

latest charade update:

Magix customer service:

Have you installed their latest update?   https://hitfilm.com/support/hitfilm-pro/

The supported hosts is determined by HitFilm, so we recommend contacting them to see if it is expected their version 6 application would be compatible with VEGAS 14 and or 15.  

Hitfilm customer service:

Thanks for getting back to me. There are extensive updates still required for the manual. The website always has the most fully up to date info available.

Ive added a license fort the old version, so you don't need to wait for the Magix update. It is in your account now.

 

[license for Hitfilm Pro 2017 has not yet arrived]

 

Last changed by AVsupport on 11/28/2017, 5:27 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Dexcon wrote on 11/28/2017, 5:35 PM

As a follow up to my earlier post re HF Pro integration with VP15, i did contact HF Support. Their reply is as follows:

Thanks for contacting HitFilm. HitFilm Pro supports integration with Vegas 15. As soon as Magix
update Vegas 15 to support it as well, the integration will work. It just
requires a small update on Magix' end, which we expect will be coming soon.

Hopefully, the next VP15 build will contain the link.

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 20, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

Dell Inspiron 5310 EVO 13.3"

i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

VEGASDerek wrote on 11/29/2017, 12:58 PM

We have put support for the new version of HitFilm in VEGAS Pro 15 and will be available with the next update.

Dexcon wrote on 11/29/2017, 2:18 PM

That's excellent news, MagixDerek. Thank you and the Magix team.

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 20, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

Dell Inspiron 5310 EVO 13.3"

i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

AVsupport wrote on 11/29/2017, 2:30 PM

Thank you @VEGASDerek. Btw, I've received an interim HFP2017 license today, as promised.

 

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

karma17 wrote on 11/30/2017, 2:23 AM

I've lost a lot of faith in Hit Film Pro. I tried running it on my Windows 7 machine, a machine that runs every other software program I have, including Vegas 14, Adobe Premiere, After Effects, LightWave, and many other programs, and it kept freezing up. I submitted a ticket through Hit Film and tried every suggestion they made, and it still wouldn't work. Ultimately, they just gave up and so did I. Hit Film does run on my Windows 10 machine, but that's not the main computer I use. I've never had a software program just not work and then the developer just give up on the issue. So it doesn't surprise me any issues that might come up with Hit Film. I want to support FX Home and give competition to Adobe, but I just don't feel the software is ready for prime time. That's just my experience.

Marco. wrote on 11/30/2017, 9:07 AM

Integration of HitFilm Pro 6 works fine now in Vegas Pro 15 build 261.

AVsupport wrote on 11/30/2017, 5:45 PM

^This seems to be the case indeed.

Make sure you Un-install your HFP6 after the Vegas upgrade, before attempting a simple over-the-top Re-install or Repair option, as this wouldn't work for me. (HFP2017 integration remained resiliant). Thanks for fixing this up so quickly @Marco. appreciated! [PS: As a loyal customer, I have now invested in VP15]

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

AVsupport wrote on 12/1/2017, 4:44 PM

added information:

BEWARE

The 'native' HFP plugins for Vegas are part of HitFilm 'Ignite'. Apparently, Ignite was part of HFP2017 but is no longer sold with HFP6. Hence, none of your HFP6 effects will show up in VP15, even though 'right-click' integration works.

Their online manual still doesn't state that, nor does the webpage / frontpage / product page clearly.

It's so frustrating...

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Kit-As-Was wrote on 12/2/2017, 3:16 PM

added information:

BEWARE

The 'native' HFP plugins for Vegas are part of HitFilm 'Ignite'. Apparently, Ignite was part of HFP2017 but is no longer sold with HFP6. Hence, none of your HFP6 effects will show up in VP15, even though 'right-click' integration works.

Their online manual still doesn't state that, nor does the webpage / frontpage / product page clearly.

It's so frustrating...


So Hitfilm are asking extra money for something that doesn't work. What came together has now been separated to create a "Suite". I just noticed that the system requirements for the latest Hitfilm Pro and Ignite Pro list Windows 8 so I won't be touching it. No Windows 7, bye-bye Hitfilm.

AVsupport wrote on 12/3/2017, 5:01 AM

..still playing cat and mouse..keeping you updated;

@Kit-As-Was, I understand your pain, loved Win7, 8 was crap and so the start with 10. But we all know, there's no road backwards, so eventually, if you want to stay on the pulse, you might have to consider the dreaded upgrade path of no return..that's the reality of it all..

my current Win10/64 system (latest drivers, water cooled) :

Intel Coffee Lake i5 Hexacore (unlocked, but not overclocked) 4.0 GHz on Z370 chipset board,

32GB (4x8GB Corsair Dual Channel DDR4-2133) XMP-3000 RAM,

Intel 600series 512GB M.2 SSD system drive running Win10/64 home automatic driver updates,

Crucial BX500 1TB EDIT 3D NAND SATA 2.5-inch SSD

2x 4TB 7200RPM NAS HGST data drive,

Intel HD630 iGPU - currently disabled in Bios,

nVidia GTX1060 6GB, always on latest [creator] drivers. nVidia HW acceleration enabled.

main screen 4K/50p 1ms scaled @175%, second screen 1920x1080/50p 1ms.

Dexcon wrote on 12/3/2017, 5:37 AM

if you want to stay on the pulse, you might have to consider the dreaded upgrade path of no return..that's the reality of it all..

I totally agree. How long are software developers supposed to customise their programmes back to ... Windows XP, ME, 95 or even 3.1? I am not that computer code literate to know for sure, but I wouldn't mind betting that the coding required for many of the great functions that current NLEs and plugins can do are not able to be implemented in those now prehistoric versions of Windows.

I had hardware (a scanner and a printer) that was not supported into Windows 8.1 ... alors, c'est la vie. And my old 2G phones no longer work in my country.

The regrettable truth is that if you want to stay with a particular OS version, you very probably have to stick with programmes that are contemporary with that OS.

 

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 20, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

Dell Inspiron 5310 EVO 13.3"

i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

Kit-As-Was wrote on 12/3/2017, 5:57 AM

I totally agree. How long are software developers supposed to customise their programmes back to ... Windows XP, ME, 95 or even 3.1?

Well, Windows 7 hasn't reached end of life so I would expect more accommodation. In point of fact, I got an email from Hitfilm saying they didn't know of a reason why the new version wouldn't work with Windows 7 but a purchaser would be on their own without support. I do have one copy of Windows 10 but it so horrible to use compared with Windows 7 and then there is all the extra spying and no control over updates to contend with. I can see myself switching to linux before I'd seriously make my main machine Windows 10. There's always hope (slim at best) that Microsoft will soften their course to becoming Apple wannabes and restore more user control. But the sad truth is I'll probably be dead or decrepit before the need to upgrade overwhelms me.