Being involved with this Craft is tough. We are always learning. The Angels are in the detail. The more I learn the more latitude I can give myself the more dynamic and effectiveness I can give my output.

All these tools are meant to assist ourselves to get closer to our creativity and at the same provide the AUDIENCE with an effective result.

Musicvid, again, has provided us with a further explanation of what is an essential understanding of how we go about poorly attempting to replicate in the digital domain that which we take for granted that our eye and brain does a zillion times better - vidually interpreting what is happening in front of us.

Here's the thing, our audiences will either unconsciously, YouTube, OR here, our Forum, consciously be aware of clipped whites. Both audiences will register this. To ask if one adds levels to ALL events is like saying does one add a 10db or 20db or 30db pad to ALL audio Events. It all depends. And this leads me back to my original point: This Video biz is a Craft. It is tough and its many toolsets need to be practised, manipulated, understood and finally applied where appropriate. Getting good will be dependent on just how much effort and innate ability an individual posseses.

I've had to learn patience with my projects. Why? Because ultimately it is my audience I have to engage and have my "message" understood. Without an appreciative audience my bills don't get paid.

Above all I'm still learning how to be patient with myself. And that has mostly meant getting my ego under control.

Do I use the Levels control on all Events? The better question would be: where would I NOT apply the levels Fx. Levels Fx is another auditing tool to assist my creativity. I now don't see it as a task. I see it as a natural part of my pallette. Levels Fx has often given me another visual option to the Flow of my work.

I hope some of my verbage has stuck. You are asking questions. Apart from getting more paid Gigs, asking these type of questions to give you further opportunities, it really doesn't get any better than that.

Grazie

Above all I'm still learning how to be patient with myself. And that has mostly meant getting my ego under control.

there's an app for that!

it's called criticism - the more you get (and listen to), the better you get (or should do!).

of course, the reverse is true for your ego ;-)

"Using the Sony Levels FX - "Computer RGB to Studio RGB" template will automatically compress your levels to the 16-235 range - compensating for the YouTube post-processing.

Possibly not, it depends, there's no one shoe fits all.

Every video camera that I've come accross tends to record with luma values of 16 to 255 not 0 to 255. So this is neither computer RGB or studio RGB.
If you apply the computerRGB to studioRGB preset then (roughly) your levels become 32 to 235. YT does the reverse and you're back to 16 to 255. Your blacks are grey, not black.
Looking at some of the samples posted I think I can see this happening, the blacks have now got what the pros would call a "pedestal". This might not matter that much, most LCD displays are pretty horrid at shadow detail anyway although the blacks are where the noise lurks so promoting the blacks is possibly robbing the encoder of bandwidth and making the noise more obvious.
To further compound this problem as I only recently realised myself (the pros have known this for decades) Sony cameras at least do add a pedestal to the blacks of around 5% as well. So even out of the camera our blacks are not black, yish!

Doing a cRGB to sRGB conversion would be correct obviously if your camera does record cRGB. Still cameras do this and that includes when they record video. The 5D records 0 to 255 and just to confuse you it does it using Rec601 so even the primaries are off but lets ignore that.

How to tell what your camera is really doing with the blacks is easy enough. Put the lens hood on and close the iris. Record a few seconds and look at it in Vegas with the scopes set to Studio RGB. If you get a line at 0 then your camera does not record computerRGB and the advise given is technically wrong.

How you deal with it correctly is a matter of taste. You could just let the highlights clip, this is the old school way it was dealt with. Personally I prefer to keep the highlight detail and I use a Custom Colour Curve like this to do:



It can pay to tweak this to taste and depending on the footage and how far or hard your camera pushes the superwhites. I oftenly add a node close to the top right hand of that curve so I'm not increasing contrast and then roll it off to preserve some highlight detail.

Bob.

Is that true for you, Leslie?

Grazie

My take on your lighting.
Get all light sources the same colour temperature. Change the tunsgten lamps for daylight CFLs is at all possible.
Use the natural light as much as possible. Im sure the architect and interior designer thought about it, it's their story after all so don't futz with it too much.
Capture and show more of the textures, slow camera moves. Look at high end shots and TVCs for cars like BMW. Nothing wrong with fast paced cuts but also let the camera linger long enough for the viewer to feel the surfaces, the light, the space.

Tools that can help for this kind of work. Tilt shift lenses, long crane and a good dolly.

Bob.

Client just called me, and I'm absolutely thrilled to say that they loved the video! I explained that it was kind of a rush job, and that I could do much better given some time, but either way, they said I'm hired and they're will to go forward with more videos and images by me. I told them my rate was $35 an hour, and they were fine with that! Yahoo! I'm absolutely thrilled to have gotten this contract! The truth is, I love doing this sort of work so much I'd do it for free! And to get paid for it is even better. Couldn't have had better news to start off my week.

CONGRATS!

Camera / Scene / Exposure levels notwithstanding, "Computer RGB to Studio RGB" filter in Vegas is the WYSIWYG path from camera to Vimeo, Youtube, and JWPlayer. Everything that is present between 16 and 235 will be mapped linearly to RGB.

http://ovationplayers.com/YTGrab.png

When to tweak the blacks (or leave them alone), apply custom corrections and curves are something the OP needs to know about, and your notes may provide him with the beginning of what is always to be a lifelong process.

And your point about black plateau is well taken. See it a lot with HDV. Bringing in the top end only in this case is a quick way to add range and depth to the remapped output, without chopping it. But it is not WYSIWYG, and may not even be desirable if there are no true blacks in the scene, as is the case with some of the OP's high-key subject matter. So it almost always comes down to a matter of judgment as to how to better optimize the material within the confines of 16-235.

But for getting what is on the camera back from Youtube without mangled levels, the levels filter is the keystone, and the stable starting point for further action in my workflow for the web. Of course, one must be careful not to "drive with the brakes on" by stacking corrections that serve to nullify each other. Adjusting both the input start and output start is a perfect example of this error, the net result being (I believe) to reduce the actual bit depth in the output.

@ grazie.....

most certainly! i always listen to constructive criticism - i don't have time for generalised bashing though, of my, or anybody's work.

my ego has gone through the usual ups and downs, and at 63 i think it's settled into a comfortable place where it doesn't get bruised, nor causes bruising. that said, it's still capable of being stung, ad of stinging (especially with some of my more wannabe students!).

in this business there's a lot of ego flying around, from arty-farty through to heavy duty technical, and you can't afford to be too casual about whom you put offside; today's goffer might well be tomorrows speilberg (ok, maybe not, but someone you'll might be working with / for). i don't believe in sacrificing my principles, but i'm not going to cause waves with them either.

better a live coward than a dead hero....

"Adjusting both the input start and output start is a perfect example of this error, the net result being (I believe) to reduce the actual bit depth in the output."

This is wrong I believe.
My understanding and tests show the following:

1) Youtube expects "broadcast levels" i.e. Y' = 16 to 235. This is reasonable, it has been the industry stand for decades.
2) Somewhere, somehow, within the signal chain that YT is using it gets converted to computerRGB. This is reasonable given that the majority of devices that YT's content will be displayed on will be setup for those levels.

" Bringing in the top end only in this case is a quick way to add range and depth to the remapped output, without chopping it."

This is muddled. I and others are bringing the top end down to conform to the industry standard of Y' being in the range of 16 to 235. I'm doing this because this is what is required for display on video devices such as TVs fed from OTA, cable or STB DVD players. As discussed many times over the years here STB DVD players will clip illegal levels. It just so happens that many cameras today record vision that needs to be wrangled correctly unless you want your highlights clipped. Your blacks are safe. Of course on could also use the Broadcast Colours filter

' But it is not WYSIWYG, and may not even be desirable if there are no true blacks in the scene, as is the case with some of the OP's high-key subject matter. So it almost always comes down to a matter of judgment as to how to better optimize the material within the confines of 16-235."

Talking about WYSIWYG is confusing unless you know WHAT you are seeing in the first place and HOW you are seeing it. Certainly one sensible first step would be to use industry standard test patterns e.g. color bars with pluge, SAW grey scale etc. One thing I've never seen used are printer step wedges, they're from the graphics arts world which uses a different set of standards to the video world, not to say that you cannot conform them to the video standards but if you don't you'll quite likely get yourself confused.

"Camera / Scene / Exposure levels notwithstanding, "Computer RGB to Studio RGB" filter is the WYSIWYG path from camera to Vimeo, Youtube, and JWPlayer."

This to me is the whole crux of the problem. We simpy cannot ignore what our cameras are doing and what Vegas is doing. This has been a major source of confusion for the whole decade that I've been here. As someone else said it isn't rocket science but it is video science.
Get your levels correct to ONE standard, either sRGB or cRGB and life is fairly easy. Sadly Vegas out of the box doesn't make this as easy as it could and what camera designers are doing isn't helping either. Still Glenn Chan has provided an excellent set of resources to help get this sorted.
All that I do is stick to the broadcast standard and set graphics, vision and stills to conform to that. I encode to DVD, can put it onto tape to goto air and send it to YT and everything looks just fine without me having to do anything else.
Indeed what comes back from YT is not the same as what I sent it but nothing is clipped and although it is not the same it looks the same on the vast majority of devices it will be viewed on. If I applied cRGB to sRGB conversion it doesn't and it doesn't because the overwhelming majority of displays used to watch streaming content are setup for cRGB, not sRGB. If I did display it on a properly calibrated broadcast monitor then yes, indeed, it might not be WYSIWYG, even that seems to depend on a number of interacting factors. On the other hand I don't see too many phones or computers setup like that.

Bob.

Interesting discussion, although I think my choice of words may have led you to think I was saying something I did not intend. I tried to help the OP understand the need to conform levels within a certain set of numbers in order to have his full range of values returned by Youtube.

By adding one word, Jerry has said it even better:
"Using the Sony Levels FX - "Computer RGB to Studio RGB" template will automatically compress your levels to

"Interesting discussion, although I think my choice of words may have led you to think I was saying something I did not intend."

Probably the same from me as well. That's the problems with fora.
One of my problems is I'm more of a "Give a hungry man a fishing line than a fish" kind of person.

Bob.

Bob, why not both, simultaneously, line AND fish? Who says they are mutually exclusive?

I respond better to a person when I get advice mixed with recognition or praise. You make a great point, Bob, about fora being hard, consequently I need to be even clearer and supportive.

Fish PLUS Line.

Grazie



Grazie

"Bob, why not both, simultaneously, line AND fish? Who says they are mutually exclusive?"

In my rather lame metaphor the "fish" is the simple solution, the "line" is the knowledge for them to have worked out the answer for themselves.

They're not mutually exclusive of course but outside of here I have found a lot of people just want the fish and that's something that seems to be getting worse. Instant gratification is becoming the norm.

Praise, sure, of course, it should be a given. I'll admit it's not something I'm very good at and I need to work on that.

Bob.

I have found a lot of people just want the fish and that's something that seems to be getting worse. Instant gratification is becoming the norm.

and boy oh boy. did you hit the nail on the the head or what!

line and fish, but get them to opentfm, or at least the ng's about how to understand the relationship between them and how to use them in conjunction!!!!

over the last few years i've found my students (16>25) have become more dependent on asking me (or a more knowledgeable peer) the simplest of questions, it's as if they don't have any long term memory and that everything can be solved by someone else, and if the software doesn't do it automatically, then it's crappy software.

i mean green screen isn't simply putting one clip on top of another (badly shot green screen) and expecting a perfect key out of the box....

this year's going to be my last teaching - i just don't have the patience any more. so you've got a f'ing ipod, put the f'ing manual on it and instead of looking for another bloody useless app, just god damn read it. heck, i even give them specific y-tube addresses for tutorials - you know, moving pictures so they DON'T have to read anything!

[/r]

I can't help but agree with Bob on this.

Regarding the metaphor: 'Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and feed him for a life time.'

As both Bob and Leslie have pointed out, seeking the quick fix has become the norm today. Liquid is the most recent example. That's why in another post I suggested reading the manual--what a concept!

Leslie's comment on students being lazy in seeking information is dead on! I've been teaching filmmaking and screenwriting on both the undergraduate and graduate level for years. Believe me, the graduate students have nothing over the undergrads in this situation.

In my last semester of teaching, I made a reading assignment of three chapters. One student raised his had and ask, "Do we have to read it enough to know it?" He was dead serious and I was utterly flabbergasted. I asked him to repeat the question. "Do we have to just read it or do we have to know it well enough to apply it or pass a test." This kid is what I call a mental bulimic; take in the information just long enough to pass a test them puke it up. He's not alone. These people are ever learning, but never able to gain any knowledge.

We do not do anyone any favors by spoon feeding them information that is readily available in the Vegas User Manual. If they are unwilling to take the time to read the manual, why should we take the time to rewrite it for them in a forum post?

I'm not lazy. But I do have a preference to ask someone a question than to look it up in the manual, not because looking it up is any harder, because honestly, in many cases it's easier?, no, my preference stems from the fact that the quality of information I get has much more depth to it when talked about in the forums. I mean, just look at this discussion, I've retained more about this topic by following this thread than I may have retained from a reading an entire book on the topic.

No one is giving me any fish, I still have to do the work--all of it! You are in fact teaching me how to set my bait, check my line and skin my catch. If that's a negative thing for you, then why bother interacting with me?

I've made it clear time and time again that I appreciate the help I get here. I don't ask questions because I have exams, or just so I can "puke" up information without actually learning. In fact, everything I do when it comes to photography, video and Vegas comes from
a deep passion for visual arts. If I'm guilty of anything, it's wanting to learn too fast so that I can stop doing other work that's not nearly as enjoyable.

The fact that getting paid to do video is even a possibility is exciting for me and is the reason sometimes I seem like I want to go to fast; however, this certainly doesn't make me lazy.

In fact, I'm hard pressed to imagine why this conversation has gone from "Hey what do you think of my video," to me defending my integrity. Just a few weeks ago some of you complemented me the fact that I asked a lot of questions. What happened?

I came to the forum this morning hoping to ask another question, this one about the difference between iris, aperture and how and when to tweak which one, and now I'm having nagging doubts about whether or not I should post my question least I offend anyone. Do you actually think the manual will cover this? Nope. The manual of my camera just tells me how to make the settings, not when or why. Of course, I do look these questions up on Google, but asking the crew that hangs around these forums provides me with higher quality information than Google every time.

On a broader note I think you've also got to appreciate that the way people learn is changing, and the fact that people want access to information faster and easier isn't completely negative. Not all of us want to read the manual, and not all of us want to learn technical aspects indepthly--at least not when we're just starting out. I for one just want to make videos, over come the pertinent issues and move on. While at first glance this may seem shallow and I and others might be easy targets for wanting to learn this way, I can assure you that it's simply a learning style, and not a symptom of overwhelming laziness. By learning the way I just described, I'm able to move forward fast, see the benefits of my work and ultimately develop a long-term relationship with the information prompting me eventually to read the manual and seek out deeper sources of information. For example, just last night I spent about 3 hours at the library and took out 4 books; one on lighting, one on composition, editing and compression.

This forum is a place where people come to learn and exchange ideas, I don't imagine any of your students are lounging around looking for shortcuts, and I resent the fact that I've been singled out, and regardless of this, I appreciate the fact that so this conversation has happened at all as I've learned plenty.

"I'm not lazy. But I do have a preference to ask someone a question than to look it up in the manual..."

Say what you will. That's being "lazy."

Coming here and asking, "How do I make a DVD?" That's being lazy. The manual clearly lays it out, step by step.

I'd dare say vast majority of newbie questions posted here could be answered by looking it up in the manual. THEN, if you didn't understand it, you could come here and say, "What does the manual mean when it says _________. This isn't clear to me."

There is a big difference between the two. The former exhibits laziness. The latter shows a lack of understanding.

Well Jay, I can assure you that your interpretation is just one way of looking at it. Just because you look something up the manual, doesn't make me lazy because I don't.

In fact, if you read the thread you're referring too, you'll see that all kinds of information was offered by a variety of sources.

I wasn't sitting around on my couch drinking beer and smoking dope wondering out loud how to make a DVD... I was asking, how do YOU go about making a DVD. Furthermore, as DVD Architect hadn't installed on my system with my latest install of Vegas, and I haven't used that software in about 5 years, I figured maybe the whole thing's been integrated into Vegas or something.

But in fairness I can see why you think this is lazy because I could have figured it out myself right? But by asking I have the added benefit of having people share their insights! Their work flow, other software they've used and like etc....That's why I ask questions like this.

And besides, do you always read the manual for things? Your car comes with a manual, have you read it? And are you venting your frustrations with me about another post here in this one? This post started off on a positive note wanting to share my work! Maybe we should take this outside.

Oh anyway, back to my beer and dope!

"Furthermore, as DVD Architect hadn't installed on my system with my latest install of Vegas, and I haven't used that software in about 5 years, I figured maybe the whole thing's been integrated into Vegas or something."

You keep proving my point far better than I can. Had you done some light reading, you would have known, wouldn't you?

Put any spin on it you want, people who refuse, for whatever reason, to read the manual (or use the search forum function) are being lazy.

"... do you always read the manual for things?"

Yes, I do.

"Your car comes with a manual, have you read it?"

Yes, as matter of fact, I have.

EDIT:

"... I was asking, how do YOU go about making a DVD."

Really? Let's see...

"I have Vegas pro 10, but I've never had to create a dvd as of yet. Do I create the menu system for the DVD out of Vegas? Is there supposed to be other software somewhere for this? Not sure where to start."

I don't see (read) any evidence of that in your original post. You asked questions that would be easily answered if you had read the manual, that was your choice.

You're free to choose. However, you're not free to choose the consequences of your choices.

Ok Jay, you win. I'm lazy. So stop wasting your time answering my questions and get over it.

Subject: RE: New paid gig
Reply by: ushere
Date: 1/24/2011 1:18:12 AM

Above all I'm still learning how to be patient with myself. And that has mostly meant getting my ego under control.

there's an app for that!

it's called criticism - the more you get (and listen to), the better you get (or should do!).

of course, the reverse is true for your ego ;-)