Well Adobe has said if you buy now you will still get a free upgrade.

deusx
>>>Being able to open a project from another App without rendering?<<<

WTF????
Are you serious?
Just cut everything in Vegas, click render, take a break, then do everything else in Fusion.
This really makes me laugh.
adobe guy jumping between 5 apps will be tone deaf and color blind in less than 4 hours in front of his pc No... he takes breaks... trust me. Not because he has to, but because he wants to.

He/She still reviews their work the next day... and when they find something they'd like to change... they simply open the App & change it with it being updated all the way down the line. Then you do a final render. -- You're way... you have multiple renders during each step. Do you not consider this a waste of time?

If I can complete a $1,000 job in 10hours($100/hr)... why would I want to spend 20hours on it?($50/hr) --Work Smarter... Not Harder.

Hopefully Sony is taking notes of what Adobe is doing.

I sat in on the Adobe webcast and needless to say - I was VERY impressed with the integration of the various video production apps - Having seen what PPro CS3 (with integrated Encore DVD Authoring - even to Flash Video right off the timeline) and Soundbooth has me more than ever moving to Adobe as my primary app suite. I just can't find a compelling reason now NOT to use it. (I use PPro and Audition all the time now with the occasional foray into Acid Pro 4 when needed)

The comment to click render and take a break was insulting from my POV. And Sync - your statement of working smarter not harder is right on the money. I just finished a project for a client and all I can say is that after I completed it in PPro and Audition, I went back and TRIED to replicate the same project in Vegas 7 with Sound Forge7/Acid Pro4 - After finding my hands tied by the lack of tools I needed and how I work - I gave up. (Titling was a joke, Color Correction was not intuitive, etc...)

I don't think SONY is really paying attention to work flow - how many version s have come and gone with the same integration requests being ignored??? I hate to say it, I have all but given up on how SONY does things - The more I use Adobe's apps - the less I want to use SONY's.

I think SONY is missing the boat in a major way currently - maybe something will come out of NAB from SONY to change my perspective.

Funny story. I told my tv students today about Adobe's new offerings and explained what each bundle included. So one of my kids raises his hands and asks, "So basically by buying this package an indie film maker has everything they need to capture, edit and output on location for any client right?" I just smiled because my kids finally got the concept of work smarter, not harder.

Adobe has gone out and acquired just what its users needed to increase work flow and turn around time. Can you imagine being able to travel around shooting a documentary and being able to edit as you go along? Composite when needed and even rough output review dvds? Add in hardware assisted rendering, etc... and what else do you need? You can still cut with Vegas.

You can still cut with Vegas

I have found that I can cut in PPro as fast as I could with Vegas

I can as well except multicam. I really do prefer doing that in vegas.

>>>they simply open the App & change it with it being updated all the way down the line<<<

Exact same thing I can already do in fusion. Titles, effects, particle effects, color correction, keying, real 3D even, and a number of things you can just make up if you feel like it. All within a single app.

>>>>>You're way... you have multiple renders during each step<<<<

No I don't. Just once, and the final render.

What you are saying is fine, but not at all a big deal. Won't save you much time. What took you 20 hours before will most likely still take you 20 hours. And may take you twice as long as it will take me, because you are using Adobe products in every step of your production instead of using better tools available. What good is integration with Aftereffects, when I don't want to use it.

>>>Can you imagine being able to travel around shooting a documentary and being able to edit as you go along? Composite when needed and even rough output review dvds?<<<

Why imagine? Vegas will happily work on any laptop, and that's all you need to edit. Even Fusion works quite well and fast on newer ones. You don't need adobe at all to be able to do this.

The most important thing with this release is that they haven't screwed up Flash, since this is their first version after aquiring MMedia. The rest of their apps, same old story.

"Why imagine? Vegas will happily work on any laptop. Fusion works quite well and fast on newer ones. You don't need adobe to be able to do this.

The most important thing with this release is that they haven't screwed up Flash, since this is their first version after aquiring MMedia. The rest of their apps, same old story"

Ok, so you are out on location and you are sitting back in your hotel later that night reveiwing the days footage. You make some cuts in Vegas and realize that you need to use some effect plugin that isnt available to work inside Vegas. Cool, so you open up AE..wait, crap, you have to render out your video for AE to work with. Make your changes and then reopen it back up in Vegas..crap, again, have to render back to another file to view changes in Vegas.

Edit all complete. Client calls and says they want to see a rough draft of the final product and they really want to see what the DVD with motion menus are like. You tell the client that youll render one out tonight and have it to him first thing in the morning. Client wants to see it sooner. Wow, it would be cool if you could just send him a file with menus for them to sign off on. Oh wait, in Adobe you can do that (Clip Notes or SWF with menus). You throw something together, render out to .swf complete with menus and send it over to the client. Client comes back and says I hate the color of the background but loves the motion background. You go back to vegas make your changes and re-render another DVD. In adobe you make your change and its instant. Client gets the product quicker and you get paid quicker.

The main problem is that if you want to work in any other app like Photoshop or AE or even Encore, you can do it but you have to render everything out then reimport it if any other changes are needed.

Im still looking in the Vegas and DVDA specs for the Blu Ray burning as well.

Im pretty sure I just cut my 20 hrs down considerably.

Unles client asks: "Can you do that cool effect......?"

And you realize, you can't do it with any of those adobe apps.

>>>>Encore, you can do it but you have to render everything out then reimport it if any other changes are needed<<<<

Again :-) No, I do not, I can color correct ( as in your example ) and change everything within fusion.

As for rendering out .swf, you have to click on something within your Adobe app, I just need to click to open Sorenson and import the file ( you save, what 4-5 seconds ? +swf render. , and for that are being rewarded with an inferior output, unless Adobe changed bundled .swf exporter).

If all this integration makes you happy , fine, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but, it's not a big deal, especially to people who want to use other tools, not made by Adobe.

I was referring my scenario to your response that you could do the docu on location with Vegas. Whats Fusion costing these days?

very good points re workflow integration, that's a *huge* issue for all of us ... especially for guys like me that do site design, video production, streaming video, dvd burning, graphics design and the rest of it...

if the adobe suite can integrate together seamlessly, making it *really easy* for all the pieces of the "from site design to dvd editing/authoring to video preview production" process, then it really is a huge step up over what vegas alone would do for us..

right now, like you say, we have to go work on each component separately, which is a time-killer... if adobe's apps integrate together well, and it looks like they are, then they could easily have a Vegas-killer on their hands...

which might not be a bad thing, esp if PP gets easier/better to use, I've never tried it myself though, I'm a longtime vegas-user..

saving time and productivity via workflow integration is a *big* issue for me and all of us, I'd assume, because time's money, and having to jump around from app to app is a hassle.

I really like the CS3 approach if we can for example organize stuff by Projects... so I can have my html code/sites from Dreamweaver integrate w/photoshop/fireworks for graphics, and create/edit video clips + DVDs in PP, create streaming video preview clips which then get imported seamlessly via dreamweaver into the sites that promote them etc.. that is a huge improvement over just using vegas alone... if I can get seamless integration in my workflow using the adobe apps then it would be well worth (even!) the staggering $2700 price for the full new suite.

and there's a lot more support for macromedia/adobe products by 3rd party dev houses, and users, than for vegas alone... and sony obviously hasn't made vegas a big priority in recent years since they bought it... hmm I'll go try PP too (tips?)

Ken

Whats Fusion costing these days?

heh.. "I almost soiled me armor" when I saw the price for one license of Fusion... :-O

The DVD is a great example Patrick. But one thing you lieft out, is somehting that was demo'd at the launch. The ability to create your DVD in Encore and than export the entire DVD structure in Flash to post on the web...now how about that? To whole "client wants to see a DVD" issue is solved even faster and without actually burning DVD's to send out.

If you go back a few years and re-read some of my posts when there was a like minded topic I started calling Vegas a great *finishing* tool because it is good at that. I think to a large degree nothing much has changed. As an NLE Vegas is ok and has gotten better but for me it still lacks. I dug myself a hole a few years ago when I cut a feature with Vegas - my concept was to sell the idea that you can do it all with Vegas. However after the fact that I asked, several times, if they would need any sort of EDL or cross NLE use and they said "No" at the end of the project they asked me to send them over an EDL or Premiere project so they could do any tweaks. Not only that they turned the elements over to the direcotr so he could edit is own "Directors Cut" of the film. As all the capture info was in Vegas format and the entire project was a Vegas project they basicly had to re-do the entire project.

Now had I cut the film in Premiere and than used Vegas to finish (Mix, color correct and so on) it would have been a whole other story. if it weren't for the fact that what goes on in Vegas stays in Vegas I think, as an NLE, it would gather a lot more favorable nods. As I say - Vegas *has* gotten better but now this whole CS3 concept is blowing Vegas+DVD out of the water as a DIY package. (With the exception of Audio - Sound Forge and Vegas still are tops for that)

What does Fusion cost?

$5,000 give or take a few nickles. At the market it targets that's small change. If you bought into it a few years back you'd have paid around half that to get the full 4K version. Th e big attraction back then was you could buy a DV licence for around $900 and upgrade that to 4K, no new software, no new tools, you just got sent the key to unlock the 4K capability.
I've worked through a few of the tutorials and it seems very logical to work with although vastly different to a NLE, it just makes sense. AE is way more confusing to me, I'm certain I'd get my head around it given time though. I guess I should also point out that the nodal concept seems to have been started by Fusion and copied by more than one other application.
The other thing that got me with Fusion was the guys who write it seem very passionate, love what they do and fall over themselves to show off what you want to see it do.

Bob.

Fusion like Vegas, started a lot of things that others are copying.

No matter what the cost is, this is one of those rare instances where an app is actually worth that much.

Like Bob, back when I tried it, I found Aftereffects unintuitive, almost retarded in its design ( that is why Adobe can integrate their apps all they like, It does nothing for me ).

>>>>I was referring my scenario to your response that you could do the docu on location with Vegas.<<<<

Sure you could. Especially a documentary. Why couldn't you?

Its funny so many Apple users, shake users...etc, think Apple created the node approach.

What exactly makes you think either Fusion or Shake started nodal compositing?

I think this concept comes from high end tools that predate desktop software, and Shake has been around for a looong time.

Fusion is a fabulous tool, but Shake is still (March 2007) what is used for doing the compositing on most Hollywood feature films.

Still, it seems very myopic to see one tool as "better" than all other tools. Only children think that way.

Adults compare on a situation-by-situation basis and make their choices based on that, because they know that all tools have limitations and strengths and weaknesses. And if they'd like to have Fusion, but don't have $5,000 sloshing around, they may have to settle for Combustion, or AE, or AE+Shake, or something else, and they'll still be able to do the job.

When I had to make my decision about compositing tools, AE was crappier than it is today, Fusion was not nearly as good, and dfx+ wasn't an option (I needed high-bit video), so I got Combustion. Good price, good quality, I could live with its limitations.

Later I found it useful to add AE Pro, because Combustion's AE API is very limited, and there are some things that AE just does better and quicker.

Sort of like using a screwdriver sometimes, not always just the hammer...

And the $3,750 difference between what I paid for (Combustion + AE Pro) and what I would have paid for Fusion, instead got me a refurbished O'Connor 50 fluid head with Cartoni carbon fiber sticks.

So do you think I'm ever kicking myself over missing out on some of the whiz-bang features in the latest version of Fusion?

Umm, no.

If I get any doubts, I'll just go caress the smoooth carbon fiber legs of the Cartoni.

:O) :O) :O)

Coursedesign, in the 70's, many mainframe design suites used nodes; I believe LISP had some design influence, but the roots go back to system programming and R.database designs. I remember in 70's working on a Hughes 30" graphic terminal wired directly to a 460 using layers and masks to design PCB and ICs layer-layout with an early version on node compositing to demo manufacturing steps.

I like combustion. But Fusion is the leader in the Studios top choose, not Shake in real production output in real money generation. An example is "300" for Fusion, studios prefer the big money makers for references. Shake is probably used 10 to 1 in IDFs and low budget productions. Shake has a place, but is it not replacing Fusion yet.

"And the $3,750 difference between what I paid for (Combustion + AE Pro) and what I would have paid for Fusion, instead got me a refurbished O'Connor 50 fluid head with Cartoni carbon fiber sticks." This I agree with you on! You have a high-end camera and you need a stable platform to work on. Sometimes budgeting requires one to prioritizes needs, and it appears that you have master this beast.

"If I get any doubts, I'll just go caress the smoooth carbon fiber legs of the Cartoni.", hopefully not in public. :-)

>>>>Sort of like using a screwdriver sometimes, not always just the hammer...<<<<

Yes, but while the screwriver is included in Fusion, there is no hammer in AF. You gotta flip that scredriwer and start hammering with its handle ( or buy Fusion ).

I have absolutely no argument with the "whatever gets you from A to B" is good.
But what if you're providing a service to move things from A to B?
Do you buy a rickshaw or a Mack truck?

Bob.

The world of compositing software is confusedly annoying right now. Shake has voluntarily succeeded the throne, only to watch Fusion stumble and fall on its face in an attempt to take the seat. After Effects, while still the best place to be creative with images, added 32-bit support to an aging architecture, effectively putting gold rims on the hoopty. Toxik offers you the option to composite using Russian politics.

From Foundry buys Nuke.

I saw mentioned recently, perhaps in Film & Video or Millimeter?, that Shake is much more widely used than Fusion at the top Hollywood studios (not indies). Stability could be a major factor here, because time is money, and Shake is rock stable.

Fusion is outstanding feature-wise, but I have heard stability complaints for as long as it has existed.

Fusion v.4 was very stable.

Fusion 5, not so at release., but they fixed it quite well.

Shake is much less stable than fusion from what I hear ( I'm not going to look up different forums, but I remember Shake being ridiculed on that quite a lot ).

The reason a lot of studios still use shake is because they invested in it a long time ago ( money, people, training, etc...., so they just keep using it. It's nowhere near as good as fusion, but it does the job. ).

Nuke could be better than Fusion, don't know, But nothing in that AF, Shake, Combustion price range comes close.

So following the above screwdriver, hammer example. It's still easier for me to pick up the hammer if every once in a while it flies out of my hand, than to keep banging on with the screwdriver handle, no matter how stable it may seem.

>>>But what if you're providing a service to move things from A to B?
Do you buy a rickshaw or a Mack truck?<<<

I thought we were in this business, so we could stay out of the moving business.


On Shake vs. Fusion, this is quote from somebody much more qualified than all of us here:

-------------

Its subjective my ass:

Fusion has 3d particles that kick ass
3d objects that can be mapped
rpf with UV support so you can changing lighting with normals right out of the box
super fast 3d environment. Better looking nulls on 3d tracks so you can find your data better


the list goes on and on. I help develop BOTH of them. I used shake back in the nothing real days and still use it on contracts today. But fusion will blast that app out of the water. PLEASE NOTE shake hasnt changed much in 10 years.... AND someone might argue that apple should have used the silicon grail chalice and rayz instead of shake for there future.
By the By, a lot of the 3d space in shake was from my beta program feed back. And they got it horribly wrong. Also the fact that they no longer supported the tremor interface was a bad thing. SINCE IT WAS DESIGNED FOR HIGH DEF.

Shakes guis is functional but based on slow code. Fusion was designed around alias maya back in the day. so its newer and faster.

the only bad thing about fusion IS no mac port. Linux is in dev but mac would be better in my opinion. Linux drivers and farms are notorious for breaking on upgrades. Fusion updates all the time. Shake NOT. another bad thing about it.

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