ot - drones
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Gary James
wrote on 8/2/2015, 9:01 PM
I believe the point that's being missed is, if a neighbor fly's a drone over a persons property with the intent on invading privacy, this is no different than if the neighbor placed a camera on a tall poll and moved it over the neighbors property. In both cases it's already covered by existing voyeurism or Peeping Tom laws that protect against invasion of privacy.
As for the original story about a handgun mounted on a drone, I still believe this is a hoax. There's a reason why video cameras are mounted beneath a drone at the exact center of gravity; to evenly distribute the weight of the payload among the 4 lifting props. The handgun in the video has most of its weight at the front end of the drone. Yet the prop motors all appear to be the same type and power output. This thing would flip over on takeoff with such an imbalanced load.
As for the original story about a handgun mounted on a drone, I still believe this is a hoax. There's a reason why video cameras are mounted beneath a drone at the exact center of gravity; to evenly distribute the weight of the payload among the 4 lifting props. The handgun in the video has most of its weight at the front end of the drone. Yet the prop motors all appear to be the same type and power output. This thing would flip over on takeoff with such an imbalanced load.
DGates
wrote on 8/3/2015, 12:16 AM
You can see with each bullet fired, there is a slight kickback, as the drone moves back a bit in the air. I say it's real.
Gary James
wrote on 8/3/2015, 5:13 AM
"You can see with each bullet fired, there is a slight kickback"
That is easily simulated by simply pulling back sharply on the Forward / Reverse control stick. Drones are VERY responsive to control stick manipulations. Here's an example of the positive types of applications where drones are the perfect tool for the job. Drones used to spot sharks off California beach.
That is easily simulated by simply pulling back sharply on the Forward / Reverse control stick. Drones are VERY responsive to control stick manipulations. Here's an example of the positive types of applications where drones are the perfect tool for the job. Drones used to spot sharks off California beach.
DGates
wrote on 8/3/2015, 5:23 AM
If it was fake, the person who made the drone would've just admitted it, instead of getting A LOT of flack about the purpose of building it.
Either way, these will be used as actual weapons sooner than later. It doesn't take much tech know how to add a couple of grenades on a drone with a simple release mechanism. Fly one over a stadium and drop 2-3 and the damage is done. Plus all the people killed from being trampled.
If I was a bad guy looking for a relatively easy way to harm/kill a lot of people, that's a no-brainer.
Either way, these will be used as actual weapons sooner than later. It doesn't take much tech know how to add a couple of grenades on a drone with a simple release mechanism. Fly one over a stadium and drop 2-3 and the damage is done. Plus all the people killed from being trampled.
If I was a bad guy looking for a relatively easy way to harm/kill a lot of people, that's a no-brainer.
Gary James
wrote on 8/3/2015, 6:43 AM
"It doesn't take much tech know how to add a couple of grenades on a drone with a simple release mechanism. Fly one over a stadium and drop 2-3 and the damage is done"
Again, why all the hysteria about drones? Anyone could have done what you just described anytime during the past 50 years by simply equipping a large RC Model aircraft to carry your ordnance of choice. What we're seeing here is a herd mentality. One animal in the herd spots a predator, and the entire herd panics and runs without thinking. Only in this case, the "predators" are ginned up news stories designed to get ratings. There's a reason they say in the NEWS business; "If it bleeds it leads".
Again, why all the hysteria about drones? Anyone could have done what you just described anytime during the past 50 years by simply equipping a large RC Model aircraft to carry your ordnance of choice. What we're seeing here is a herd mentality. One animal in the herd spots a predator, and the entire herd panics and runs without thinking. Only in this case, the "predators" are ginned up news stories designed to get ratings. There's a reason they say in the NEWS business; "If it bleeds it leads".
DGates
wrote on 8/3/2015, 7:11 AM
No, Gary, I'm far from being hysterical. Just following it to the extreme conclusion. It's going to happen, whether you want to be in denial or not. And the RC Model planes are not an apt analogy. Ease of operation and maneuverability are VASTLY different.
I think I'll put my faith in what Sully Sullenberger is saying in regards to the dangers. I'm thinking he probably knows much more about this than we do.
I think I'll put my faith in what Sully Sullenberger is saying in regards to the dangers. I'm thinking he probably knows much more about this than we do.
Gary James
wrote on 8/3/2015, 9:08 AM
"RC Model planes are not an apt analogy. Ease of operation and maneuverability are VASTLY different"
You can rationalize this however you want. An RC model airplane capable of carrying a explosive payload can be built for 1/10 the cost of a drone (meaning you get 10 terror weapons for the same price). And you don't need maneuverability to fly over a stadium and drop down into the grandstands. A terrorist doesn't need pin-point accuracy to achieve the desired effect. Frankly, an explosive laden kite on a windy day is 1000 times cheaper than a drone. Are you going to stay up at night worrying about that?
You can rationalize this however you want. An RC model airplane capable of carrying a explosive payload can be built for 1/10 the cost of a drone (meaning you get 10 terror weapons for the same price). And you don't need maneuverability to fly over a stadium and drop down into the grandstands. A terrorist doesn't need pin-point accuracy to achieve the desired effect. Frankly, an explosive laden kite on a windy day is 1000 times cheaper than a drone. Are you going to stay up at night worrying about that?
deusx
wrote on 8/3/2015, 9:12 AM
Well of course you don't shoot at a drone flying above your house. You follow the drone back to its owner then you shoot the owner.
It's common sense.
It's common sense.
Gary James
wrote on 8/4/2015, 7:53 AM
"You can see with each bullet fired, there is a slight kickback"
When I first read this it set off a little alarm in the back of my head that kept nagging at me until I just realized this is the proof the drone gun video is a fake. If you're not familiar with shooting handguns, the physics behind what happens after the trigger is pulled may be foreign to you, but is easily comprehended by reviewing the photo below as I describe the process.
1. When the trigger is pulled the hammer is released to strike the firing pin which in-turn strikes the cartridge primer setting off the powder charge.
2. The expanding gasses inside the cartridge move out at high velocity in all directions, but the sides and rear of the cartridge restrict and redirect the building pressure to the rear of the bullet forcing it out of the barrel.
3. The pressure inside the cartridge that pushed the bullet out the barrel also had an equal and opposite effect that pushed the handgun slide backwards. This initiates the process of ejecting the spent cartridge, cocking the hammer, and stripping a fresh cartridge from the magazine then chambering it into the barrel for the next shot. The photo shows the recoil ejecting the spent cartridge. It also shows how the handgun tips upward because the rearward force causes the gun to rotate around the point of momentum in the handle just below the barrel. This is important.
4. This point in time is very important because it not only shows what happens after the bullet exits the barrel, it also shows what is needed to ready the gun for the very first shot. A semi-automatic, recoil operated magazine fed handgun must be "cocked" before the gun can be fired. That involves holding the pistol frame rigidly, while pulling back the slide against the recoil spring tension to cycle the action and ready the pistol for firing. Depending on caliber and Manufacturer, recoil spring tension can be anywhere from 5 to 20 lbs. You may already see where I'm going with this.
5. To successfully cycle the action for the very first shot, and then again for subsequent shots, the pistol frame must be held stationary while the slide is retracted either manually, of from the recoil of the fired cartridge. In other words, both the slide and the frame cannot be pushed back at the same time. The slide must be retracted while the frame remains stationary, or the slide remain stationary while the frame is moved forward. They can not both move together or the action will not cycle.
In the video you see the drone gun firing repeatedly implying the pistols action was being successfully cycled, but yet we see the drone being jerked back to give a visual impression of recoil. Frankly, you can't have both and expect the pistol to fire. Think of it like this. If the pistol had never been initially cocked, and the drone was hovering as shown in the video, you would have to walk up to the drone, grab the pistol slide, and pull it back with a force of maybe 15 pounds against the recoil spring tension without the drone moving a fraction of an inch, for the gun to cycle. That I say is highly unlikely.
When I first read this it set off a little alarm in the back of my head that kept nagging at me until I just realized this is the proof the drone gun video is a fake. If you're not familiar with shooting handguns, the physics behind what happens after the trigger is pulled may be foreign to you, but is easily comprehended by reviewing the photo below as I describe the process.
1. When the trigger is pulled the hammer is released to strike the firing pin which in-turn strikes the cartridge primer setting off the powder charge.
2. The expanding gasses inside the cartridge move out at high velocity in all directions, but the sides and rear of the cartridge restrict and redirect the building pressure to the rear of the bullet forcing it out of the barrel.
3. The pressure inside the cartridge that pushed the bullet out the barrel also had an equal and opposite effect that pushed the handgun slide backwards. This initiates the process of ejecting the spent cartridge, cocking the hammer, and stripping a fresh cartridge from the magazine then chambering it into the barrel for the next shot. The photo shows the recoil ejecting the spent cartridge. It also shows how the handgun tips upward because the rearward force causes the gun to rotate around the point of momentum in the handle just below the barrel. This is important.
4. This point in time is very important because it not only shows what happens after the bullet exits the barrel, it also shows what is needed to ready the gun for the very first shot. A semi-automatic, recoil operated magazine fed handgun must be "cocked" before the gun can be fired. That involves holding the pistol frame rigidly, while pulling back the slide against the recoil spring tension to cycle the action and ready the pistol for firing. Depending on caliber and Manufacturer, recoil spring tension can be anywhere from 5 to 20 lbs. You may already see where I'm going with this.
5. To successfully cycle the action for the very first shot, and then again for subsequent shots, the pistol frame must be held stationary while the slide is retracted either manually, of from the recoil of the fired cartridge. In other words, both the slide and the frame cannot be pushed back at the same time. The slide must be retracted while the frame remains stationary, or the slide remain stationary while the frame is moved forward. They can not both move together or the action will not cycle.
In the video you see the drone gun firing repeatedly implying the pistols action was being successfully cycled, but yet we see the drone being jerked back to give a visual impression of recoil. Frankly, you can't have both and expect the pistol to fire. Think of it like this. If the pistol had never been initially cocked, and the drone was hovering as shown in the video, you would have to walk up to the drone, grab the pistol slide, and pull it back with a force of maybe 15 pounds against the recoil spring tension without the drone moving a fraction of an inch, for the gun to cycle. That I say is highly unlikely.
craftech
wrote on 8/4/2015, 10:52 AM
I learned a lot about guns listening to some of the posts, blogs, and some of the dialog in the US media.
I learned that:
1. Firing a gun into the air in a residential neighborhood is OK because the shooter will always hit the offending airborne target and no one in the surrounding neighborhood will be in any danger.
2. In movie theater mass shootings, the way to stop them is for everyone in the theater to be armed so that bullets can fly all over the dark theater in every direction and one of them is bound to hit the bad guy. Problem solved.
See. You learn things every day if you pay attention.
John
I learned that:
1. Firing a gun into the air in a residential neighborhood is OK because the shooter will always hit the offending airborne target and no one in the surrounding neighborhood will be in any danger.
2. In movie theater mass shootings, the way to stop them is for everyone in the theater to be armed so that bullets can fly all over the dark theater in every direction and one of them is bound to hit the bad guy. Problem solved.
See. You learn things every day if you pay attention.
John
wwaag
wrote on 8/4/2015, 12:06 PM
In movie theater mass shootings, the way to stop them is for everyone in the theater to be armed so that bullets can fly all over the dark theater in every direction and one of them is bound to hit the bad guy. Problem solved.
Many, many years ago there was an All in the Family episode at the time of some airline hi-jackings. Archie's solution--hand out a gun to everyone as they board the aircraft. At the time, it really sounded absurd--sadly, not so much today though.
wwaag
Many, many years ago there was an All in the Family episode at the time of some airline hi-jackings. Archie's solution--hand out a gun to everyone as they board the aircraft. At the time, it really sounded absurd--sadly, not so much today though.
wwaag
craftech
wrote on 8/4/2015, 1:08 PM
Many, many years ago there was an All in the Family episode at the time of some airline hi-jackings. Archie's solution--hand out a gun to everyone as they board the aircraft. At the time, it really sounded absurd--sadly, not so much today though
-------------------------------------------.
Right. And for a better "movie theater" experience of course the lights in the airplane should be turned off before the shooting starts.
John
-------------------------------------------.
Right. And for a better "movie theater" experience of course the lights in the airplane should be turned off before the shooting starts.
John
larry-peter
wrote on 8/4/2015, 2:29 PM
This argument for needing more guns to keep us safe sounds like arguing that we need more cancer to prevent us from getting cancer.
But back on topic, do you think the recent close calls with drones flying around landing planes at JFK will eventually result in a ban on all civilian drones? At least in the US?
But back on topic, do you think the recent close calls with drones flying around landing planes at JFK will eventually result in a ban on all civilian drones? At least in the US?
Gary James
wrote on 8/4/2015, 2:48 PM
"do you think the recent close calls with drones flying around landing planes at JFK will eventually result in a ban on all civilian drones?"
These sightings really puzzle me. I've flown my Phantom 2 in different kinds of weather, from bright sunny to dark overcast, And I'll be honest, when that thing goes up more than a couple hundred feet in any weather, that little all-white toy becomes invisible. From the tips of all 4 props it's only about the size of a small garbage can lid, and weighs only 3 lbs. How the h.e.l.l. a commercial airline pilot can "spot drones" flying around an airport while the aircrew is throttling down their airspeed to something under 200 mph, and concentrating on their landing procedure, is beyond me. I can't see my own drone that I know is up there, yet they can see one from the cockpit of a moving airliner. This sounds very fishy.
These sightings really puzzle me. I've flown my Phantom 2 in different kinds of weather, from bright sunny to dark overcast, And I'll be honest, when that thing goes up more than a couple hundred feet in any weather, that little all-white toy becomes invisible. From the tips of all 4 props it's only about the size of a small garbage can lid, and weighs only 3 lbs. How the h.e.l.l. a commercial airline pilot can "spot drones" flying around an airport while the aircrew is throttling down their airspeed to something under 200 mph, and concentrating on their landing procedure, is beyond me. I can't see my own drone that I know is up there, yet they can see one from the cockpit of a moving airliner. This sounds very fishy.
wwaag
wrote on 8/4/2015, 4:13 PM
This sounds very fishy.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/pilot-close-call-drone-amid-terror-warning-32846299
According to these news stories, the FAA has been reporting about 25 incidents per month. At that rate, it seems a wee bit unlikely that these sightings are somehow manufactured. As a drone operator, you may not want the government restricting the use of your toy, but as a passenger in the back of a jet on final approach, I suspect that most people are sure hoping that the government is taking whatever steps are necessary to crack down on these irresponsible operators.
wwaag
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/pilot-close-call-drone-amid-terror-warning-32846299
According to these news stories, the FAA has been reporting about 25 incidents per month. At that rate, it seems a wee bit unlikely that these sightings are somehow manufactured. As a drone operator, you may not want the government restricting the use of your toy, but as a passenger in the back of a jet on final approach, I suspect that most people are sure hoping that the government is taking whatever steps are necessary to crack down on these irresponsible operators.
wwaag
Gary James
wrote on 8/4/2015, 4:54 PM
As a drone operator I have limited control over my drone near an airport. The DJI Phantoms (by far the most popular and successful drone maker) are pre-programmed in the flight control software to not allow the drone to exceed 400' when flying within an FAA flight restriction zone near an airport. And not at all at an airport. I couldn't exceed the legal limit if I wanted to. This is another reason why I question some of these reports. Now, I'm not saying these things can't happen if someone intentionally wanted to create havoc. I'm saying that under normal circumstances this should not happen.
farss
wrote on 8/4/2015, 5:29 PM
[I]" In the video you see the drone gun firing repeatedly implying the pistols action was being successfully cycled, but yet we see the drone being jerked back to give a visual impression of recoil. Frankly, you can't have both and expect the pistol to fire."[/i]
Of course you can have both. Only some of the energy from the round firing is used to cycle the action, the rest does force the weapon backwards. There is no such thing as a recoilless gun, the illusion that there is comes from how the energy of the "equal and opposite reaction" is dissipated.
It seemed obvious to me that the drone took off with a round chambered. No doubt the safety was off as well. Certainly some scope for a Darwin Award there :)
Bob.
Of course you can have both. Only some of the energy from the round firing is used to cycle the action, the rest does force the weapon backwards. There is no such thing as a recoilless gun, the illusion that there is comes from how the energy of the "equal and opposite reaction" is dissipated.
It seemed obvious to me that the drone took off with a round chambered. No doubt the safety was off as well. Certainly some scope for a Darwin Award there :)
Bob.
GeeBax
wrote on 8/4/2015, 5:57 PM
[I]The DJI Phantoms (by far the most popular and successful drone maker) are pre-programmed in the flight control software to not allow the drone to exceed 400' when flying within an FAA flight restriction zone near an airport. And not at all at an airport.[/I]
Are you saying that the Phantom will not fly at all at an airport? How does it know what is an airport and what is not on a world-wide basis?
Are you saying that the Phantom will not fly at all at an airport? How does it know what is an airport and what is not on a world-wide basis?
monoparadox
wrote on 8/4/2015, 6:04 PM
I get a kick out of people who walk up to me when I'm flying my Phantom 3 and comment about my "toy." I just smile and tell them I'm an old man trying to get one more kick out of life. Truth is, the Phantom 3 is as sophisticated instrument as many of our video cameras. It's a fantastic platform for videography and photography.
Yes, there are some real knuckleheads "playing" around with them. OTOH, I've been around long enough that there are those who have a monetary interest in nipping drones in the bud: News copters, aerial photographers, crop dusters and many others have financial interests to protect. It's quite possible they might enhance the risk.
In the end, like anything one needs to understand the capabilities for danger. But let's cut the paranoia and think things through. There are all kinds of risks we accept and live with, not the least of which is putting our faith in the driver of another car approaching us at 60 mph on a two lane road . . . with feet to spare.
-- tom
Yes, there are some real knuckleheads "playing" around with them. OTOH, I've been around long enough that there are those who have a monetary interest in nipping drones in the bud: News copters, aerial photographers, crop dusters and many others have financial interests to protect. It's quite possible they might enhance the risk.
In the end, like anything one needs to understand the capabilities for danger. But let's cut the paranoia and think things through. There are all kinds of risks we accept and live with, not the least of which is putting our faith in the driver of another car approaching us at 60 mph on a two lane road . . . with feet to spare.
-- tom
monoparadox
wrote on 8/4/2015, 6:11 PM
GPS. The Phantom 3 will not operate within a set radius of larger airports if they are programmed in as no-fly zones.
More info here:
More info here:
DGates
wrote on 8/4/2015, 6:30 PM
Anything that's programmed can be reprogrammed.
DGates
wrote on 8/4/2015, 7:29 PM
"These sightings really puzzle me. I've flown my Phantom 2 in different kinds of weather, from bright sunny to dark overcast, And I'll be honest, when that thing goes up more than a couple hundred feet in any weather, that little all-white toy becomes invisible. How the hell a commercial airline pilot can "spot drones" flying around an airport while the aircrew is throttling down their airspeed to something under 200 mph, and concentrating on their landing procedure, is beyond me. I can't see my own drone that I know is up there, yet they can see one from the cockpit of a moving airliner. This sounds very fishy."
You sound very petulant about this whole topic. Pilots can see things because THAT'S THEIR JOB to see things. But I guess YOU think it's all a big conspiracy and the feds are going to knock on your door and take away your little drone. Grow up already.
You sound very petulant about this whole topic. Pilots can see things because THAT'S THEIR JOB to see things. But I guess YOU think it's all a big conspiracy and the feds are going to knock on your door and take away your little drone. Grow up already.
monoparadox
wrote on 8/4/2015, 7:59 PM
So, your logic is that anything that can be modified from its original purpose should be banned? Cars since they're used in drive by shootings? Vans, since they can park outside your house and eavesdrop? Video cameras, since they can record private events. Guns? Knives? Your laptop since the NSA could well be eavesdropping (or a host of other nasty people) on private conversations and recording video of a face while visiting a porn site?
The point is, inherently drones are no greater risk than dozens of activities you engage in each day . . . unless you're Howard Hughes. And, we know how he turned out.
Maybe we'd all do well to get off this kick in America where we think we're so special we need to be protected against everything that could be a threat. I'd argue it's rapidly diminishing the life and liberties we claim we hold so close to our hearts.
/off soapbox
--tom
The point is, inherently drones are no greater risk than dozens of activities you engage in each day . . . unless you're Howard Hughes. And, we know how he turned out.
Maybe we'd all do well to get off this kick in America where we think we're so special we need to be protected against everything that could be a threat. I'd argue it's rapidly diminishing the life and liberties we claim we hold so close to our hearts.
/off soapbox
--tom
DGates
wrote on 8/4/2015, 8:16 PM
So, your logic is that anything that can be modified from its original purpose should be banned?
Please refer me to a comment I made that said drones should be banned. You're like one of those gun nuts that freaks out when we say there needs to be common sense regulations and restrictions in place to keep the country safer. But they simply shout. "THEY WANT TO BAN ALL GUNS! THEY WANT TO BAN ALL GUNS!" Give me a break.
Drones should be regulated. And if that gets your panties in a bunch, then so be it.
Please refer me to a comment I made that said drones should be banned. You're like one of those gun nuts that freaks out when we say there needs to be common sense regulations and restrictions in place to keep the country safer. But they simply shout. "THEY WANT TO BAN ALL GUNS! THEY WANT TO BAN ALL GUNS!" Give me a break.
Drones should be regulated. And if that gets your panties in a bunch, then so be it.