Excellent points Jay - excellent -

Here are some more things to consider and perhaps, ways to handle the situation.

Whenever I'm budgeting with a new client I use this story (feel free to use it as well - just not if I'm bidding on the same job :>))

I say, "You've just bought a beautiful piece of property on a beachfront. You've checked around and found an amazing architect who you know can really do a great job. The first question he will ask, is what's your budget? Do you want a 42 room mansion? Or a neat 3 BR beach house? or simply a classsy cabana? They'll all look GREAT... what do you have in mind?"

Every client I have presented this to, understands what I'm saying, but when I put it in these "out of media" terms, they finally can relate - so when I ask my next question, (What's your ballpark? Are we building a mansion or a cabana?) - I generally get an answer.

This is WAY better than the other - "Uhh... put some numbers together and let's see what you come up with". (How many times have you pros heard this one??)

That's B.S. (and it's actually what you, very innocently, have asked of us).

We do not manufacture shoes or sell hardware. Production quality is a direct result of money spent - notice I didn't say end quality, just production. What does that mean? It means that a $650 a day make-up artist with a full make-up kit (or in your case dive master/cameraman with attendant gear) is definitely going to do a better job than a production assistant with a powder puff.

This is the "business" part of Show Business. If you fail at the "business" part, you ain't going to get too many more chances at the "Show" stuff.

There is No Point in spending the time and energy coming up with a $85,000 bid for 7 - 10 days of diving, land shoots, location scouting, crew, specialized equipment, scripting, editing, original music, and more... if the client has a $8,000 budget in mind.

So get that bit of info FIRST - then everything else will fall into place.

Once you know what ballpark you are playing in - come back to us, and we will try to help. Sandlot... or Pro Field?

ps - no matter what the budget, SOMETHING can be done, especially today.
pps - no matter what the budget - it's NEVER enough.
ppps - if you truly want to Stay in this business - produce your job within the confines of your budget - PERIOD!

v

LOL -- Victor, I've used the house analogy myself on many occasions! Unfortunately, it doesn't always work.

Recently, I had a woman call and ask, "How much will it cost to make a 25-minute video?" I told that's like asking a contractor how much will it cost to build a house..." etc. She said, "Yes, I understand, but how much will you charge?" After three attempts, I gave up. I told her unless she could give me more details about what she wanted, I could not give her any cost information. "Just give me a ballpark figure," she pleaded. "The high and low." I told her it could range between $100 to $10,000 per finished minute. Dead silence. She thanked me and hung up. Haven't heard back from her either.

I'm really grateful for your replies guys.

I had quite a long meeting with the customer today and the question "What's your budget?" was on the tip of my tongue. I chose not to ask as I was fairly convinced either a) they'd just throw the ball back to me or b) not knowing my own pricing guidelines off the top of my head I would not frown or laugh genuinely enough when they gave me a ridiculously low figure, and thereby weaken my position. In retrospect perhaps I should have asked.

Dive shops here are in a highly competitive industry in a country where labour and cost of living is very cheap and therefore everyone wants something for nothing. The position I've left myself in is where the ball is really in my court to give them a price.

What's my budget? Well it's a tricky one. The real answer is "what I can get for the job". I'm a one-man band working from home with a VX2000, an underwater housing, a computer and some software. If I don't get the job it's not the end of the world and I can survive on other stuff. The most important thing for me at this stage is to make a good job of it and not to feel I've undersold myself while I'm doing it.

Jay, I'm sure the editing will take me vastly more time than it would a seasoned Vegas pro but I can accept that at my stage on the learning curve. I've got 7 months to do this job if I need it and the end result will be "professional" otherwise I wouldn't take it on! So I want to charge a "professional" price.

To get some sort of framework in my mind and a bit of confidence I'd love to hear from any professionals who've actually made promo DVD's for small companies (I don't mean just diving companies of course). How much did you charge?

"The most important thing for me at this stage is to make a good job of it and not to feel I've undersold myself while I'm doing it."

In todays enconomy anywhere in the world, you wil ALWAYS be underselling yourself and your skills. Thats the nature of the beast and business. The question is what is the cutoff level, rather the lowest you can do the job for and the smallest profit you are WILLING to settle for.

You will be undercut by someone else willing to do the job for less. Thats a given. But you have to decide whether making a little profit is worth the hassle. Ultimately, you are the only one who can decide what you are willing to settle for.

What's my budget? Well it's a tricky one. The real answer is "what I can get for the job".

No, that's neither the question nor the answer! You're putting yourself first, yet you can't answer you own question, that's the "tricky" part. You ignored Victor's suggestion to ask, "What's your ballpark?" How many times are you asked that, when buying a car for example? You walk onto the lot, tell the salesman, "I want to buy a car." What's the first question out his mouth? If all you have to spend is $10,000, he's not going to waste his time trying to selling you the most expensive car on the lot!

When people go into this guy's dive shop and announce they want to buy scuba gear, what do you think he does? Plop the most expensive gear he has on the counter without questions? Even if he did, what would he do when he discovered the customer only had $1,000?

So I want to charge a "professional" price.

Why should you get paid a "professional" wage when you admit to not knowing what you're doing? Do you honestly believe you are worth that much? Can you, at this stage in your career, deliver a professional product?

Frankly, I can't imagine any client waiting 7 months for delivery on his 25-minute project, as you described it, but that's not the issue. But since you brought it up, if it's gonna take you 7 months to do a 25-minute video, you can't expect to be getting all that much. By saying it will take you that long to deliver a finished piece, you've already told the client, "I'm new at this. I don't really know what I'm doing. I'm going to have to feel my way along, so this is going to take some time for me to get the job done."

Your best bet is to do exactly what Victor told you to do. Ask the client what his ballpark is, then design a production to fit within that budget--and don't sell the client short! Put him first! Victor also told you exactly what you needed to hear:

No matter what the budget, SOMETHING can be done, especially today.

Don't try to get rich off your first job. It ain't gonna happen.

Nick, you're gonna have to be willing to ask the hard questions. Like Victor said, if you can't, you won't make it.

I am not a professional in the video industry. You need to listen to these guys though.

1. You need a BUDGET (Model for Expenses) Because whether you are just starting a business, or continuing one you have to know HOW MUCH it is going to cost you. This is real important because it is a make/break decission, AND knowing gives you more confidence when negotiating. Also helps you walk from a bad deal.

2. How to make a budget. In your case, I would start with a simple model that includes normal living expenses such as food, electricity, lodging, transportaion, insurance, labor, equipment and materials, and service repairs..... After you do that add another 30 to 50% pad, and make that your BREAK EVEN point. (Breaking Even is only slightly better than working for free). DON'T UNDERESTIMATE YOUR BREAK EVEN or you will lose money,

3. Based on your budget research, develop a PROFIT range that you are willing to work for, and present your client with a written proposal, while explaining why he doesn't want anyone else to do the job (don't oversell--once they're hooked, stop selling).

Hey, good luck!

Thanks again for the replies. I really appreciate it and I do hear exactly what you're saying. It's all valuable stuff.

I'd just like to straighten one or two things up that I may have miscommunicated, and the easiest way is probably to respond to quotes from of Jay's post:

"Don't try to get rich off your first job. It ain't gonna happen."

I think I've probably given the impression that I'm more of a beginner than I actually am. This is not my first job. I've been in video for years, made hundreds of videos and spent thousands of hours editing. It's how I make my living. However till now all my projects have been...

- souvenir DVD's for divers (simple editing style)
- my own documentarly DVD (simple editing style)
- Shooting for TV and promo (no editing)
- Licensing footage for TV (no editing)

This is my first total promo project and my deepest delve into effects. So in those ways it is new for me, but I'm far from some idiot just picking up a camera and NLE and trying to get rich quick :)

"You ignored Victor's suggestion to ask, "What's your ballpark?""

I didn't ignore it. I took it firmly on board but as I said before it would seem rather unprofessional in this case to go back at this stage for a ballpark because of the way I've left it. In any case I discussed in detail what the customer wants and basically there's only one way to make the project. There aren't really any variables. It'll be me and my single camera doing X number of dives, X hours' editing and so on. So I think it's quite within the customer's expectations to expect me to come back with a quotation first.

"Why should you get paid a "professional" wage when you admit to not knowing what you're doing? Do you honestly believe you are worth that much? Can you, at this stage in your career, deliver a professional product?"

Absolutely 100% YES. I know my underwater footage is a match for anyone's and that is the most important part of the project. My topside footage is OK, as is my voiceover, basic editing etc.. My documentary DVD has been very well received. With the long delivery time that they've given me I know the product will be spot on. Incidentally as far as I know I am the only videographer in Thailand capable of making these deep dives, which means they don't really have a choice but to use me.

"Frankly, I can't imagine any client waiting 7 months for delivery on his 25-minute project, as you described it, but that's not the issue. But since you brought it up, if it's gonna take you 7 months to do a 25-minute video, you can't expect to be getting all that much. By saying it will take you that long to deliver a finished piece, you've already told the client, "I'm new at this. I don't really know what I'm doing. I'm going to have to feel my way along, so this is going to take some time for me to get the job done.""

I didn't tell the customer I'm new at this and that I don't know what I'm doing at all and I didn't ask for that long. I asked the customer what the deadline is and he said "Christmas". I would never have asked for that long if he hadn't offered it first. But I'm happy to take it if I need it so that I have time to get the effects etc. spot on.

Thanks again guys. I'm working on my quote. At the risk of being accused of ignoring advice again, can anyone tell me a rough range of how much they might quote for such a job?

Just because you have 7 months to complete it... doesn't necessarily mean that you will get a better end result than only spending 2 months on it.

If the 7 months is there to allow time to capture events / activities that happen across the 7 months - then ok... but if all that is doing is making it possible for you to try out endless different editing approaches... in the end that time may merely be an opportunity to "procrastinate".

How much of that 7 months do you think you'll need to pull this off? Will it be full-time? 10%? 50%? Will having such a long time make it possible for you to fit this project more easily around other paying jobs? Answering that may help you with your budgetting.

Sometimes the only way I can get close to finishing a project is to have a fixed deadline that is not tooo far away.

Of course... this probably say s something about how I work... and may not be at all applicable in your case.

Liam "the Procrastinator" Kennedy

I generally PAY about $400/day for a professional Producer/AD to make up a budget like this, and I'd expect him to take one to two days to get it "spot on".

That being said (meaning, I'm not going to bid your job for you - no nastiness intended - this IS a "help me" site) you've got to break out the expenses in a line by line breakout. I've made up an Excel bid form which I'll email you if you send me your address (not for general distribution).

- Footage/content to include:
Dive site 1 - One day with ?? crew, boats, dive gear, cameras, lights, tanks, others - each on a line at discrete costs x days (4) x overtime = line item total
Dive site 2 see above
Dive site 3 see above
Dive site 4 see above

Tech divers on above sites and decompressing etc. including rebreathers, twinsets, male & female divers
>> I would assume to do this on a fifth day in shallow easy to light, easy to shoot water where you can control retakes (Unless that is all you'll be doing on the first four days) - budget elements as above

Recreational diving - what does this mean - again I assume another day on and under water- as above

Technical courses, recreational courses, Go-Pro courses (IDC etc.)
One day with lite crew, cameras, lights a truck, food - breakout on line by line basis

Classroom included in tech course photography

Scooby Shop - Scooby day includes fill station, pool
Filling station
Pool

Thailand scenes - stock footage - $500
Stock footage as required (e.g. whale shark, manta rays etc.) - stock footage $500 (you have to budget this by asking stock houses what they've got and how much they want - be specific of WHERE it's going to play - the same footage costs differently for an industrial film vs a national commercial - sometimes these smaller stock houses will "give you a rate" if you ask

- Voiceover as required including descriptions of the dive sites
1 day - buyout rate for 20 minute video - $750 - $1,000
- Editing to include titles, transitions, graphics, effects,

Editing of 8 days of footage - NO CLIENT PRESENT !!!!!! as follows:

10 days of off-line to assemble footage
3 days for fine cutting
3 days for effects and finalization
2 days to recut to client specs
1 day to recut once again to 'FINAL' final cuts via client
after this, the client is invited into the edit suite at $125/hr
The above technique of editing is CRITICAL to staying in business - it they are in the edit room, you submit the above budget but warn them that you will not be held to it and will charge by the hour - NO EXCEPTIONS TO THIS - on the other hand, your budget w/o client is not written in stone - if it takes you tweny-five days - there are no overages - this takes the pressure off of you, and allows you the freedom to fuss a little to really make it better - it's a good deal for both of you
music to reflect up-tempo, modern style
Jay, JonnyRoy, Spot??

- Translucent watermark, top right of screen -
- My company credit screen at end
in edit cost - nothing additional for this

- DVD authoring including chapter points, no menu
- Design of DVD face graphics - $25 to $500 per screen depending on complexity and artist

HAVE TO RUN OUT TO MOTHER'S DAY DINNER - WILL RETURN WITH MORE -
JAY - WHAT DO YOU THINK??

Victor, what more can be said? You nailed it!

ok - back from dinner...

I think I was a little tight on the edit portion - you've got to be fast to cut a 20 minute promo in 16 days (but with a tight script it's more than possible) - my daughter cuts a 25 minute news show for ABC-TV every week - she does it in 20 to 25 HOURS. Not the same standard as a promo - but it's not chopped liver either.

the rest of the stuff is findable on-line.

If you send me your budget BEFORE you submit it to your client, I'll be happy to review if for you. It should be in Excel format and clearly laid out.

OH YES... duhhh...
the director cameraman - a minimum of $1,000 per day up to $2,500 based on your particular specialty and abilitiy (even more is possible).
Script - $500 to $5,000
Once the whole budget is completed, you should mark up the sub-total a minumum of 20% to a max of 35%. It should be on a separate line called "Mark-up". It covers the expense of staying in business - telephones, rent, equipment maintenance and downtime.
You also MUST have a separate line for insurance - and you damn well better have paid up insurance on a job with people diving underwater.
You might also consider a "Contingency" of xxx dollars based on problems that could arise (you have to think about these - I don't know... the bends - it's unpredictable events beyound your control)

Don't forget to add in the cost of acting talent. Even if you plan to use actual staff as actors, it will definitely serve your film to have one or more professional actors in the show to bring the quality of the MESSAGE to the screen correctly. Johnny Mumbles might be a great diver, but you may very well want a good looking actor to stand by him and tell the real story.
And lastly - decide with your client the cost of "weather days". You've got a bunch of exterior and undersea days budgeted. What happens if it rains or worse? Who pays the staff, the boat rental and the other associated costs. If Scooby owns it all, then it should be a "no-brainer". It'll be easy to talk about before you get started.

Lastly: payment -
Half in advance on a project this size.
One quarter at the completion of photography (you can submit time coded VHS or DVD dailes for client inspection)
Final payment on completion of the job.

Some people go for a third/ a third and a third. If you have to, do that, but my way GUARANTEES that you don't LOSE money doing the gig.
If for any reason (he decides he hates you - he goes out of business - he gets a new, expensive boat... or girlfriend...) with my payment structure, the only thing left unpaid is you.

And finally - NO MONEY - NO PICTURE. Never let the final master out of your hands (with a small client like this) until you are paid in full, and the check clears the bank!

You submit the FINAL cut with a nice time code clearly shown on the bottom of the screen, "for editing purposes". That time code guarantees you that you are going to get the final bucks involved.

A lot of this may not seem too "fair"... but it is. Even the nicest people can become scumbags at the end of an expensive project. If everything is clearly stated in front, in writing, you will avoid ever having that happen to you.

Finally - these are real numbers - you asked for them, and wouldn't give us a ballpark. You also stated that you are the only game in town. Forget seven months for completion - they finish Star Wars in less time. If these numbers are out of hand - it's your own fault (ballpark). Don't cut the numbers (too much) - cut the production.

Produce the film you can afford - not the one you dream about. That way you will stay in business to do yet another.

v.

...calculate the total time you'll spend from start to finish... add another 10% for a buffer ... now, multiply that by minimum wage or 20 bucks an hour or whatever YOU feel comfortable with... it's a job ... treat it as such ...

As many of the folks who have already replied to your initial post have pointed out, its pretty tough to give you an exact quote without knowing all the variables. But, given everything I've read through the thread, if I were in your shoes I'd be charging a total price of $12-14K USD. That might seem low to some people, but given everything you've said, I'd say its a fair price. However, knowing Thailand...you might only be able to get away with $6 or 7K.

Let us know how you make out...sounds like an interesting project!

Fantastic replies, especially you Victor. I can see the time and effort you've put into replying to me and I really appreciate it. I've emailed you regarding your spreadsheet template and in the meantime started working up my own based on your ideas with adjustments for my specific circumstances etc..

As Jonathan hinted, Thailand is indeed a completely different case from the USA or the UK. Although the official lists have the cost of living at something like half of the USA or the UK, in actual fact the real cost of living for me and my compatriots is even lower. For example my apartment costs me just $300 a month! And it's my studio too! Labour is very cheap and as a result everyone wants something for nothing. Hence some of the figures quoted are way above what a customer would dream of paying. However this is a specialised skill, and the equipment is more expensive than in western countries, so that balances things out a bit.

As for insurance, I carry my own personal accident insurance (DAN), as do most divers here. Third party liability insurance is almost unheard of here. I hardly know any dive instructors who have it and even PADI (world's biggest scuba training agency) don't require instructors to have it in most of south east Asia. I never heard of a dive instructor in Thailand getting sued either. However I'll look into proper liability insurance for a cameraman over here. I don't hold out much hope though. All the actors, models and boats for this project are supplied and paid for by the customer, and my role will be observing and documenting, so that's some help. As for comprehensive equipment insurance in Thailand.... well that'll be the day and definitely a topic for another thread.

Now then... another specific question: For a job this size would you normally draw up a more detailed contract following acceptance of the quotation, or would the quotation itself be the contract? Where, if anywhere, would the customer sign before we get started?

thanks again, brilliant forum,

Nick

Yeah, the numbers are all a bit high from what I'd expect you to actually get in Thailand. When I was there in Sept. 2002, we (my g/f at the time and I) spent like $15 / night for a hotel room (D&D Inn, Khao San Road), and it was pretty nice (despite my initial thoughts)!

I'd find it hard to believe if you get in the $10k range, but who knows, right? As you said, you're the 'only' guy in town with underwater capabilities, and experience to boot. If they can see this DVD bringing in more customers, perhaps they'll see your price to be worth it in the long run. I'd imagine they'd be able to send copies to all the tourist / travel shops in Bangkok, etc. They're everywhere. A DVD being shown there might draw a ton of new customers - much more than any printed brochure.

Nick Hope, not to overstress a point, but the dive shop is wanting an "image" being projected thru out the "Demo DVD". The acting talent should be an issue that you should be involved with. Vic hit on this point earlier, remember, a poor performance by an individual can and probably will effect the outcome of a project,.... ie... like not getting paid because the "image" of the talent" mading the diving shop look second rate, though your under water work was excellent. Since they want a lot of special effects, they are not wanting to look like a second rate outfit on "video" . Another note, having a line item, like insurance cost, gives to an item that you can cross out and state "covered" by Shop.

Obviously this will be an educational experience and as such it will have value for you even if it costs you, provided that the end result brings in more profitable work. I imagine you have a good handle on the time that will be involved in the underwater activities, but I keep thinking of the old adage about estimating work: if experienced, multiply time estimated by Pi; if new to the activity, multiply by Pi squared. Obviously this comes from the scientific research world and tells you why defense programs usually run overtime and over budget. But in this case, take care!

Nick:
You'll have to forgive me, 'cause I had in mind one blistering reply to your topic - you see, I take my glasses off when working at the computer - it ain't perfect, but better than tilting my head at odd angles to adjust for my tri-focals.

Anyhow, I mis-read your topic - thought you were asking 'how much to charge for PORNO video, LOL.

Then, in preparation to send you a fiery reply, I start reading the text of your question - that you've been contacted by some DIVE outfit from Thailand - well, you can only imagine my surprise at the professional level of responses you received to this utterly nonsensical question (ok, since I'm not interested in the specifics of PORNO, I admit, I didn't even read the whole of your original post, you lost me pretty quickly after I confirmed my suspicion by reading about the Thailand DIVE shop, LOL).

Took me damned near skimming through the entire thread until these tired old bones (the ones in my head, LOL) figured out that the Thai DIVE shop is all about swimming under water, not diving for, oh, well, you understand.

So, having restrained myself from flaming you, I'll apologize just the same, and rejoice in the reaffirmation of my notion that this website has been and continues to be all about better video of mostly the wholesome kind.

Hope all of you can laugh at me as hard and heartily as I'm laughing at myself.

Caruso