I'm not using it on the systems here as elsewhere I have Prospect 2K although I might get Neo HD for home.
Maybe I'm not the best guy to answer your question but so far no one using it having are problems that I've read of. It's even better value as it's now one of the few codecs that work between Macs and PCs and it works with Adobe's products as well. So even if you did decide to give Vegas the flick unless you were going to Avid who have their own excellent HD DI codec you haven't done your money.

The only other thing I'd add is Cineform do have technical support.

Bob.

I've always used Cineform through all the Vegas versions from 6 onwards. There were a few glitches which Cineform corrected quickly (very good tech support). No problems with 8c. However I do have the AMD 64 x2 4800+
I suggest downloading the trial and testing. Installation is easy and the conversion interface intuitive enough for a quick appraisal.

Cliff,
There are people (including myself with a HV20, HC3, and HC7) using 8c with ALMOST no issues at all, so that tells me that the problem is not Vegas but something else. Sorry... what that is I can't really tell you but I would suspect some combination of hardware, or software.... or both. It also could be that your captures are wrong some how.

I say ALMOST because I do (and always have) had various problems with the Vegas capture system. As a result I would do a lot of crashing. I switched to HDVsplit..... and still got a lot of crashing. I now capture with HDVsplit but I capture the tape in its entirety first (with its preview off), then I use HDVsplit's option to scene detect capture files already on the harddrive (audio/video sync switch OFF). I haven't had a render crash in at least 6 months now and I'm rendering big 1440 timelines over to 1920 for Blu Ray.

I did also use Neo for a while there when the crashing was pretty bad and that seemed to straighten things out a bit too.... albeit with slightly slower renders. It does have a 14 day trial so I strongly suggest you download and try.

Oh.... and yes, I have the Q6600 and intel board as well.... but I'm running vista64 with 8G ram and no page file.

that tells me that the problem is not Vegas but something else

That's called jumping to conclusions. It tells you nothing of the kind. It tells you that with your material and your work flow, there are fewer issues than with Cliff's material and Cliff's work flow. There are some serious problems with Vegas right now, some of which appear to be fixed in 8.1. The fact that 8.0c show these problems and that 8.1 does not, is actually a strong indication (but not a proof) that the problem lies with Vegas. If we assume that a significant portion of the 8.0 and the 8.1 code base is the same, it is even an indication that it is Vegas having some problems with memory management.

"That's called jumping to conclusions."

I can EASILY say.... right back at ya'

Your conclusion is a bit of a jump as well. The fact is that's all we have right now.... "jumps" in the dark

I will agree that there are some memory management problems, but one CAN'T say that they're strictly Vegas issues.... or the way one's computer is set up.

As far as 8c and 8.1 go.... they both handle memory very differently so your analogy is like comparing apples and oranges.

I'm not sure what you expect NeoHD to do for you. The HC7 shoots HDV and I have a Sony Z1U and A1U which both shoot HDV and I'm not having any problems in Vegas Pro 8.0c with my QuadCore and Intel Mobo. I do capture as one long file (i.e., I turn off scene detection because it is broken and places bits of the next clip at the end of the first) but other than that it all works as expected. I have Connect HD (the prior version of NeoHD) but I only use it occasionally to remove pulldown from 24p material shot in CineFrame mode. Other than that I edit straight m2t files on the timeline without any problems. Most of my projects are about a hour in length.

~jr

"(i.e., I turn off scene detection because it is broken and places bits of the next clip at the end of the first) "

Funny.... that's the same problem I have.... which is why I had to turn to HDVsplit.

Capturing as one long file also seems to eliminate (or at least minimize crashing). I've always kind of suspected that a large contributor of crashing has to do with scene splitting a file..... or more specifically, scene splitting a file on the fly while capturing at the same time.

I just opened files captured in V8 in Ppro, most of the problems don't show up. Doubt it's the capture. Then again neither crash on me with 15 hours of HDV on the T/L, just that Ppro seems to handle the decode better.
Note that splitting scenes could increase the number of active clips on the T/L. This is identified in the release notes as having a finite limit. I'd assume when you exceed that limit something has to give and so far it doesn't like Vegas does it gracefully.

Bob.

"I just opened files captured in V8 in Ppro, most of the problems don't show up."

Agreed.
I can open the files without issues in other programs as well... it just seems to bother Vegas.

But this whole idea seems to run hand in hand with Laurence's discovery of running the files through MPEG2 REPAIR. Vegas no longer has issues this way either

So you remove the errors from the data stream and the badly written code no longer crashes, that's what you're saying. All I can say is well so what. All you've proved is how buggy and badly written Vegas is.
Errors occur on tape, it's the very nature of the medium. Your code MUST cope with those errors just as when people type in "O" when they meant to type "0".
Also any competant testing program would test with corrupted data. The people testing my code drive me nuts with that kind of testing but that's how you make code reliable, you pay experts to try to break it.

Bob.

Some of you guys are capturing HDV in PPro? I have tried that and it makes my Vegas REALLY unstable. And Windows explorer assigns two different programs to view those files, so there must be some significant difference. Is there anyway to make PPro capture HDV in a flavour that Vegas likes? I must be missing something simple.

I have also tried to capture in Vegas with Scene Split off, but it splits it anyway, in some wierd places. And some of the splits seem to make Vegas unstable.

What I do now is capture one long take in Premiere, then render out shorter sections that I want into either Raylight or Cineform to edit in Vegas.

kairosmatt

Bob,

I love my Vegas but there are 2 things I have said in the past about it (and maintain)

1) Vegas HDV capture is broken, out dated, shy on options and is in bad need of an overhaul
2) Vegas tends to be quite finicky and does not handle errors very well.

And it is NOT errors on tape that I am talking about. Back when I was having major crashing issues with HDV I noticed that when I capture a tape in its entirety, threw it on the time line and MANUALLY did scene splits with the S key, i could render an entire time line without a crash.... but capture that tape with scene detection on and all hell would break lose.

"I have also tried to capture in Vegas with Scene Split off, but it splits it anyway, in some wierd places. And some of the splits seem to make Vegas unstable."

BINGO!

I've been using NeoHDV for some time to capture HDV from my Z1. I usually use the option to simultaneously convert to Cineform's medium quality intermediate. This way, I avoid the native m2t problems others are having (which I also experienced on occasion). Editing and colour grading with the Cineform intermediate is great. After Effects works with it. I can do multigeneration renders with negligible impact.

Mark

I don't have Vegas 8 - still on 6d here; but I did want to comment on your Q6600 performance and Cineform.


1) If you don't see a major performance jump going from an AMD X2 [I assume that's what you mean by "old school AMD"] to a Q6600, then I would thoroughly check your system. In every multimedia app I used (Vegas 6, Sound Forge 8, Cakewalk SONAR 7, Blender 3D, Kontakt 2 [and many other software instruments], etc.) the quad provided a very noticeable improvement in speed and stability. Particularly for real-time operations (like heavy audio & virtual instruments in SONAR) the quad is a LOT more stable than the old AMD X2 that it replaced. I custom built the box with component combinations recommended by professional DAW/NLE builders; and the results have surpassed my expectations. This machine is FAR better than the X2 system ever was.

2) I've only used the Cineform codec that comes bundled with Vegas 6, because I don't have the cash on hand to buy Cineform Neo HD. Right now I'm using the bundled Cineform codec as a proxy (yes - I mean "proxy", not "intermediate") for a 1080p 3D animation project. I use Gearshift to switch between the Cineform "proxy" and uncompressed AVIs. The Cineform provides much better editing performance with a usable color space. The AVIs are used only for final renders. For what it's worth, I think the Cineform codec looks terrific, the HDD space savings are impressive, and the performance improvement over a wrapped 1080p PNG sequence [for example] is quite large.

That said, I contacted David Taylor at Cineform to ask some questions about Neo. He was very helpful. I was very impressed with the service he offered - particularly in light of the fact that I don't yet own Neo.

Thanks to these experiences, Neo HD [or better] is on my list as soon as I can afford it.


...sorry for the long post - didn't have time to write a short one.

"I'm not sure what you expect NeoHD to do for you"

What it does do is decode the m2t into avi.

I would prefer NeoHD due to the 1920X1080 resolution now that 1920X1080 resolution can be rendered to - AVCHD and/or MPEG2. However, I find the cost prohibitively expensive.

I've been using Neo HDV on an 8 hour long project that had about 70 hours of source material. It's worked very well and has allowed me to back and forth with After Effects with no problems. Multi generation renders do great and the upsampling to 4:2:2 color space allows more latittude when color correcting.

I would recommend the High quality setting if you buy NEO HDV. It give you slightly better quality than the free Cineform codec that comes with Vegas.

Cliff,
I'm not asking this as a smartass question but as a serious question: what are you asking differently from the http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=605683Last Time[/link] you asked this? Are you asking if NeoHDV is different with Vegas 8C version?

I can EASILY say.... right back at ya'

Actually, no, you can't. You see, I didn't draw any conclusions at all, I only said there were indicators. There is a significant difference.

The fact is that's all we have right now.... "jumps" in the dark

Absolutely not. We have a lot of indicators for a variety of issues, none of which are imaginary. We know that in 8.0, any version, it is not possible to render, for any project of any kind of complexity, a 32 bit color timeline with the vast majority of hardware out there. People have simply stopped doing this since it doesn't work. We also know that Vegas has, and has had for a very long time, serious problems with JPEG images that are larger than a couple of times the project size.

Both of the above problems are indicators of issues around memory management. I have confirmed that the 32 bit color issue goes away in 8.1 and I am actually willing to bet that this is also the case with the large JPEG issue, though I haven't tested that. Since 8.1 is a port to 64 bit which means new memory management routines, this is a strong indication that there is, somewhere in Vegas 8.0, some memory management problems. This is the most common problem in software, so that should not be a huge surprise. It is also one of the harder problems to find and fix since it may only manifest it self in very peculiar situations.

there are some memory management problems, but one CAN'T say that they're strictly Vegas issues

If there are memory management issues they are either a problem with Vegas or a problem with third party DLLs shipped with and used by Vegas. That is the only areas where there would be any memory management issues since these are the only items that take part in memory management when Vegas runs.

Outside of hardware, there are two main reasons for computer problems. The first is application memory management, including DLL memory management. This comes in two sub-categories, allocating and never releasing memory and using memory that has not been properly allocated. Of these two the first will cause the application to grow and grow and never release memory properly. This is the easiest to find. The other is harder. It will typically make the application hang or die unexpectedly.

The second reason for crashes is interaction with device drivers. This usually happens when a very taxing application exposes problems with hardware drivers that other applications do not.

The two problems will manifest them self very differently. The former will make the application unresponsive, slow or it will make it suicidal. The latter will make the computer as such crash. An application is not under any circumstances able to crash a properly working PC with error free drivers and OS (doesn't exist of course).

So, the problems reported by most Vegas users, app hangs or dies, is typical of application problems. This can be either Vegas it self or it can be third party stuff. Now, lets see where the arrow is pointing (without jumping to conclusions)...

As far as 8c and 8.1 go.... they both handle memory very differently so your analogy is like comparing apples and oranges.

Actually, no it is not. The analogy as you call it (there was no analogy) is apt and relevant. Vegas 8.1 most likely shares a lot of code with 8.0. If it doesn't that would be just plain weird. As you say, the most likely area of significant change in 8.1 is in memory management. Stop for just a few minutes and think about that a little blink...

OK, thought about it? Now look at this

Vegas 8.0 has some unexplained crashes and problems
Take Vegas 8.0 code and re-write portions of the memory management
Call the product based on the new code for 8.1
The unexplained crashes and problems go away

What would that indicate to you?

Cliff, if I were you I would forget NeoHDV and edit in m2t, saving yourself the storage requirement and expense.

I'm capturing with HDVSplit and editing the m2t files in 8.0c. I'm working with this A LOT, churning out 45-60 minute DVDs and HDV projects on a daily/weekly basis. I just did another week's dive trip DVD like this with quite a lot of effects etc. and had no crashes all week and smooth previews while editing.

My preview window on my Dell laptop is half of full res. Usually I edit with "Best Full" preview and "Scale Video to fit preview window" ON. Occasionally the rate drops a bit and I have to switch to "Preview Half" and "Scale video to fit preview window" OFF, but that's still perfectly workable for editing purposes.

The HC7 should capture just fine using HDVSplit and the m2t files should edit just nicely in 8.0c.

"Actually, no, you can't."
Yes I can.... and I did.

"We also know that Vegas has, and has had for a very long time, serious problems with JPEG images that are larger than a couple of times the project size."
This is just plain FALSE.
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=615585


"Vegas 8.0 has some unexplained crashes and problems"
Strange... because I'm not crashing.... in 8c or 8.1

"If there are memory management issues they are either a problem with Vegas or a problem with third party DLLs shipped with and used by Vegas."
Then everybody would be crashing.... and as I have said, I am not. I haven't had a render crash in 6 months or so and my time lines are up to 2 hours with up to 800 events with effects, transitions... yadda, yadda.

I will agree that Vegas DOES have some reproducable bugs. The 32 bit color is one, and here are a couple of others:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=617618

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=617008

But these are hardly show stoppers.

But as far as memory management problems go.... they're not happening here so again, you're jumping to conclusions in the dark.