Talking in 3rd person.... LOL

Remember the movie "PHONEBOOTH" with Collin Ferrell.....yea, it's kinda like that! *smile*

well.
every party needs a pooper! :-)

Against some of my better wishes I am going to say a few things - first of all shooting in video, HD or not, you can do a feature for 10 grand. I have always thought...ok, not thought...known to be fact...that some people are stuck in the "union, big budget" frame of mind and others are stuck in the "no budget" frame of mind. And yes, for sure there are those who are "green" and don't really know all that goes into making a film.

Having said that - Shannon has the money and the drive to just go out and do it. Good for him. Yes, he is still learning and with each project he does he learns more, and he is welcome to argue with me on that but either he is still learning or he is a know it all. Fankly everytime I work on a project I learn something...yes you can teach an old dog new tricks.

Many years ago I worked for a director on a film - it turned out it was his third film. He lucked into some things - a main one was that he got his hands on a 3/4" video set up and asked his brother and his girlfriend to be in a film. He shot it over a weekend or two in his small attic. He admited later that he had no clue as to what he was doing. That "feature" sold at that years AFM. The company who bought it put said they would buy a war movie, so the "director" got probably about 10 grand and shot a war movie. He ,as with the first film, just would say "Action" and "Cut" but didn't really know anything about making a move. He got a crew and cast together. No pay. He got someone who had their own gear, shot the bulk of the film MOS - avoided shots too close or full face so they could dub in sound later. This was shot in 35mm. That film sold at AFM...matter of fact the film went on to be one of the biggest money making films (in a theatre) in Beruit. Now on the third film is where I came into the picture. This one was a horror film and a "co-production" with the company who had purchased the first two films. I got paid, I was brought in on some reshoots. it was just a job...no biggie. Ok money for a weekends shoot. I had no idea I was one of only two people who were getting paid. End result was that this film sold as well, even got a video distribution deal in the US. A while later I get a call from the director - he is shooting some promos for AFM in order to do pre-selling. Was I available? I said sure - off to Riverside, Ca to shoot these things....3 - 5 minute compressed stories. Before they have even cut together the promo they get a greenlight to shoot one of them..I get hired. Again, only one of about 5 peopls who were getitng paid. This film lead to another. By this time myself and others were seeing how clueless this guy was and we all got kind of pissed off. But he kept making features without us.

Next part of this story is I am working a live show at the John Anson Ford Theatre in Hollywood and I see a guy who worked on the film. I start talking to him and he says he is now full time for the "direcotrs" movie studio. The guy had teamed up with some other people and opened up an indy studio. They start turning out 20 - 30 features a year - all shot on film mind you. They also branched off into home video and started picking up some rather "big" titles for US ditribution. For a few years this guy was up there with Corman in terms of output. This guy learned as he went. Not to say any of the films he directed or produced were that great - they made money. And that is my point here.

Another like story that I have told in these forums before is a guy who used to shoot film...he was really bad. But than "film look" came along and he would go out and shoot features on S-VHS, master to Betacam with filmlook. His budget on these was always around 5 grand. He would go to AFM and sell the rights to smaller countrys - 10 grand here, 8 grand there...agian, he made money.

And the whole Internet Movie Databse link - it was said in a "ohhhhhhh ahh. See what he has done..." mode and frankly Shannon hardly has anything there for someone to point to that and take the attitude of "yeah well have *you* done as much as he has?". Likewise if you looked at the people I mention above you would see so many films listed it might make your head spin...has Shannon done as much as them? Have I? Has Spot? has Vic? Does it matter? yes and no....and that too is my point.

Each year hundreds of features were made and most of them were never heard of here in the US. But is small countries they were huge. All these people would come to Hollywood wanting to be the next big thing and to them what was in the top 10 boxoffice was where it was at. So many ignored the rest of the films out there. Now we have a huge percentage of stuff being shot on video. Hell yeah you can do a film for 10 grand these days. You can even get "real" actors with that kind of money shooting on video verses what you could do 20 years ago for 10 grand shooting on 35 mm film.

Shannon has come onto this board in the past and people have jumped on him because of how he words things. In some cases it is clear why people jump on him, other times it is based on nothing more than what he offers (or doesn't) money wise. Shannon might be the next Corman on the block...he might turn around and be hiring any one of us for something. Doesn't mean he is any better than anyone else technically. it just means he might find a niche were he can turn out product that will sell and make money. But to do that one has to..well, do that.

As for Vics quesiton - how to market a 10k film. I think in various forms we have talked about this in threads. The basic concept is to start off with a plan, a target audience. Street teams are great - taking it on the road works as well. However you need the time to do this if you do it yourself. Otherwise you have to hit the sellers/buyers markets. Depending on what the product is it might sell really well everywhere else but the US. It also depends on how much you really want to say you are putting into a film. For example studios love to say how many units a film sells when it first comes out on video/DVD. What they don't ever say is how many units come back 6 months - 1 year later. Like wise a budget may be 10k but after a few years of woking on the film, trying to market it and trying to sell it how many people hours were put into it? But it can be done.

Here is a good quote from an interview with Roger Corman: We have shot several films on digital. When we come to distribute those films in the United States it makes no difference whether they are shot on digital or on film. Overseas, however, we get less money for a digital movie, particularly from Germany, which seems to be very much wedded to film. So we’re still shooting the bulk of our films on 35mm. Our lower budget films went to digital, but have come back to 16mm. We expect digital and particularly hi-def to increase around the world, so I would think that within a few years our lower budget films will go back to digital. Sometimes these technologies take longer to get public acceptance than you anticipate. Actually, I think the public acceptance is already there, it’s just that some of the distributors are not aware of it.

EDIT: some spelling

From my perspective, and knowing some of Shannon's works firsthand, if he says he's gonna market the film on a 10k budget, he'll do it. His work is top-notch, he's got a great rep in both the production and distribution sides of the industry even if he isn't Robert Rodrigues.
Luck to you, Shannon!

Shannon, check your email.

Frankly, I'm glad to see someone speak openly about the lavishness of the so-called traditionalists.

Of course, you can make a movie for $10k - a good one, too.

In 10 or so years, this guy's budget will represent the norm for a well-done action HD indie film.

>>>>Look, so what's the rocket science here? What are people questioning?
1. Shannon, who is this guy?
2. Is it a $10,000 budget or is it Shannon's $10,000 + whatever someone else brings to the table?
3. How can you make a feature length film for only $10,000?
4. How will you sell a movie made for only $10,000?
5. What the hell does Shannon know about Indie filmmaking?

My answer to all of that is: IF YOU AIN'T GON' BE A PART OF IT, THEN DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT! *smile*<<<

No worries, I'm smiling while saying I personally wouldn't consider being part of this, but I wish you good luck just the same. I really mean that last part believe it or not. I salute new filmmakers. It's the ones who cross that line of f*cking people over is where my replies are aimed.
If that's not you, good.

However - this "aloof" reply given is not an answer (and you know it).
Those q's are valid, might want to think about dealing with them one day, (minus the cockiness of course).
If you are what you claim you are, they shouldn't pose a problem.

>>>*grabbing a beer and crossing my legs* I mean c'mon guys, I'm not exactly a nobody<<<

Hmm, wonderful (means nothing).
Mind advice from the peanut gallery? - NEVER annouce your presence, your work will and should speak for you.

>>>I do know a 'few' folk here and there who knows my work ethic. I am notoriously known for paying people in cash and wrapping out the crew with everybody going home happy.<<<

Well that is who my reply was directed to - others who might jump in with involvment - not just you. I AM saying they need to get their sh*t together as far contracts and negotiation (ahead of time). Promises and hype mean jack, so it's fair-warning to any green individuals wrangled who may be ASSUMING the details.
That said, looking at your sites, I do believe your intentions are sincere (that is to say, i'm hoping so). I really hope this is the case for the entire crew, and they would be paid at least scale.

Then again...an announced $10k prod budget leaves PLENTY of concern (even for intermediates much less any professionals). Concern of the above, concern with REALITY of a straight to dvd horror flick and the REALITY of it's return today. My contacts inform me of a rather "bleak" outcome (although the "fun and experience factors" can hold a separate truth - it can be a helluvalot of fun. I hope it is.).

Please note: I am NOT a fan of the "exposure game" bullsh*t running RAMPANT in this industry. It's tired and it doesn't fly anymore. It's 2006 - get a new act. I really hope your intentions don't fall into this scenario.
Just the same, it's just basic fair warning to those thinking otherwise.
The only way to quell this issue is to not allow room for it to exist (legal contract/the art of negotiation should stamp out 90% of this).

So if you KNOW your offering service with no real need for return, great...your decision is made. Good f*ckin luck.
Hoping/planning for a return on your investment?...get to work on these important details. Contact Shannon and do the voodoo.


>>>And furthermore.....*sigh* OH FUGG IT! *slamming my beer down, slurring my words, 1/2 drunk and making a mess*
......You know what, Forget all I've said above.... SCRATCH everything you've read so far......Here, Allow me to re-write the Ad....<<<

snip - skipping the cocky post in humor

Hmm, well... at least TRY a professional approach in response....again, aloof and cocky replies like this can "hinder" rather than help.
In hindering the "exposure bullsh*t/game", again - all questions are valid.

Then again, there's still the question of why you're posing an ad like this on this sony website forum?
One would think you would have plenty of local sources/contacts who would be more than happy to tackle ANOTHER project with you if you are "all that" ( "I mean c'mon guys, I'm not exactly a nobody").

Care to provide a more detailed reason for these people here? Now, "I" have reason to avoid any follow-up of interest, sure...but others might appreciate this. Think outside the box (in this case - ego).

Lastly (to shannon):
seriously - good luck. I'm a horror fan would love to see another new sucessful concept arise in this genre.

Shannon Rawls, Liked your earlier project. I believe that many vegas users would like to be in IDF, but the risks are high. Still I think its great that you offer the vegas forum members a chance to in an IDF.

Indie films usually don't make much money. For example, you could look at the Canadian television industry. There's many movies of the weeks being produced that are heavily subsidized by the various levels of government (it can get up to 70%)... the high level of financial support is necessary because otherwise no one will make Canadian television. It's the same deal with Canadian feature films.

In terms of profitability, indie filmmaking is not very profitable.

This particular thread is SO MUCH FUN...

Shannon - if you're still there - Good Luck !!
Can you really sell a small independent feature to Blockbuster and gross $60k?? How do you go about that process??

Filmv - very interesting - what is "AFM" ?
I assume it's some sort of film market. Do you have any first hand experience?

As usual, I am impressed with the spread of knowledge in this forum... thanks all.

v

>>>what is "AFM" ? I assume it's some sort of film market. Do you have any first hand experience?<<<

Yes and yes. AFM is the American FIlm Market and is (was) put on by the A.F.M.A (American Film Marketing Association) each year. Because of video/television/cable somewhat talking over things they reformated the whole thing, changed it around and bit and and the A.F.M.A became the I.F.T.A (The Independent Film & Television Alliance). It used to be in April, now it is in November.

It really used to be great for indy companies to sell (and pre-sell) films. Before the money market hit hard times you could have a booth (suite) and show trailers for completed films and hand out flyers for upcoming films and buyers would just open up a suitecase with cash and pay good money. Then the whole pre-selling idea started falling apart because so many things were starting to be shot in video and people were a bit tried of getitng pre-sold cheap shot on video crap. (Same goes for the US Video rental market - at first it was huge when producers relized they got get massive ROI by shooting on video and having a direct to video release. Probem was after so many store brought in so much of this stuff they stopped truting anything shot on video) So the whole film look process sort of helped out in that department but than the money market crashed. Economicly foreign buyers did not have the will to buy so many indy / no budget films anymore. Where they used to walk in to the AFM and walk out with maybe 6 films they would now walk in and want to spend that same money on one or two films that had name talent in them.

During all of this more and more the people who came to AFM also were looking to buy for cable and such, not just theatre and home video. With that also saw a change in who was showing up to sell. Not just feature films but also TV shows and made for TV movies.

That aside the AFM is still a place where low budget indy film really are what drives it. Sundance had the idea at first, but in a more "artistic" vein. AFM is more of a place to find Corman-esque fair along with more indy arty type films. (And of course now TV shows and the like) There used to be MIFED as well but that ceased to really exist when AFM moved to November.

What is really good about AFM - and I am saying "good" as a relative thing here - is that if you actually listen and not just try to sell your product you can get a great idea of what is selling. A lot of times buyers don't bother to look at anything, they just pop their head in and ask things like "Do you have anything with a lot of explosions in it?" or "Do you have anything with David Hasselhof in it?" Other times everyone is suddenly a film maker. For example after 'Jurassic Park' came out the whole CGI things was huge all around the world. The company I was with at the time had done a low budget monster film. All these buyers came in and were really interested in it but they would watch the promo and make comments like "The dinosaurs don't look as good as 'Jurassic Park" or "You know if you could make those CGI like 'Jurassic Park' we would buy the film." You could stand there for hours and try to explan that this was not a film about dinosours but they didn't care because at that time everyone wanted a 'Jurassic Park'. On top of that the year before Corman was pushing 'Carnasour 2' and buyers jumped on it, sight unseen, and when they took delivery they found they had something that was nothing like 'Jurassic Park'. So at that years AFM buyers wanted 'Jurassic Park', not 'Carnasour 2' *and* they wanted to actually view the film before they bought it so they could see what the dinos looked like...even if they weren't dinos. We paid for screenings that year and for the most part buyers actually watched the entire film (like the suites buyers stroll in and out of screenings freely and it is rare they sit for the entire screening), not that it resulted in more sales saddly. The irony was, and still is, that you don't go to the AFM to buy rights for a film like 'Jurassic Park', you go to buy rights for a film like 'Carnasour 2' - that is the whole point.

Now don't get me wrong - it isn't all about action at all. I still have screening tapes from films that I wanted to pick up for US distribution. Films like 'Agnes', 'American Beer', 'The Candian Ballet' and 'SoulMates' for example. But these aren't money making films either...and that is another thing that the AFM is all about...money.

Filmy - would you drop me a line by email?
vicmilt@interpubco.com