craftech

Just out of curiosity John, have you ever lived outside of the US to compare?

I lived the first 30 or so years of my life in Europe, the last ten or so in the US. I have to disagree with your statement about the press above. I find that in the US there is far freer press than in Europe, and that the indoctrination is significantly lower here than anywhere I have been in Europe.

In the US you have main-stream media, which is just bland, and less main-stream media from right-wing talk shows to NPR. Main stream media in Europe tend to be similar in both form and content to what you get from NPR over here. The political stand seems to be very similar.

The difference is that in Europe, you only have main stream media. There are no alternate viewpoints expressed. In fact, Europe is moving more and more in a direction where they use the law to silence "inappropriate" political opinions. I am not sure that is something the US should aspire to.

Let me use an example. A British nut, and yes, he is a nut, claims that it was technically impossible for the Germans to execute as many Jews as history reports were slaughtered by the nazis during WWII. That is his opinion. It is a fringe opinion and he writes books about it.

Problem is, it is illegal in many parts of Europe to have an opinion like that. Seriously. You simply can not express it legally. The nut was eventually jailed for his transgressions.

I prefer a country that allows the expression of opinions that most of us don't like. You don't have freedom of press if you permit expression of opinions only palatable to the great majority. You have freedom of press once you allow the expression of opinions that are not only fringe as regards to the majority, but opinions that the majority find highly offensive and repulsive.

This is the ultimate test of freedom of press. Ask if you are allowed to publish opinions that the vast majority of the population would find repugnant. If the answer is yes, you probably have freedom of press. In most of Europe, the answer is, in very many areas, sadly "no, you can't".

My prediction is that within five years some European countries will enact laws that severely limit, or even completely ban, the expression of opinions that go counter to the litany in the area of the environment. It is not there yet, but it is moving in that direction. Ask a poor statistics professor from Denmark for an example.

Terje: Great comments. I would add that any time one starts resorting to "vast conspiracy" theories (whether left-wing or right-wing is immaterial) to explain events, then it's probably time to take a step back and re-examine one's assumptions.

DJPadre: Our daughter is now 17 years old, but I can recall a time back when she was an infant and my wife and I marveled at the sheer volume of trash her diapers (nappies) created. I always thought someone should invent some sort of "pressure washer" machine where said infant is inserted up to her waist, a button is pressed, and--presto!--in 5 seconds you have Clean Baby!

I've heard some daft arguments about costs, huh? When you bang out 100K units of something then another 100K units in a different format costs nothing, the raw materials are the same.

How are the raw materials the same? And fixed costs too. Media are different, the burners are different, etc. If you ramp up from 100K production to 200K of the same product, it costs less than creating production for 100K of an incompatible, totally different version of the product. And if one of the formats dies, you now have money invested in useless production equipment.

Then there's inventory costs. Does the local store in the shopping mall want to stock three formats of every title (SD + 2HD), not knowing which will sell and which will sit on the shelves? Or the regional distributor who carries a much larger inventory? Sure, they can keep data and make forecasts to adjust their buying, but they still end up getting stuck with more inventory than they want. And that's partly due to buyer hesitation (as others noted).

Terje: Great comments. I would add that any time one starts resorting to "vast conspiracy" theories (whether left-wing or right-wing is immaterial) to explain events, then it's probably time to take a step back and re-examine one's assumptions.
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To Terje and Riredale,

It's only a "theory" if one cannot sustain it with consistent examples which I can. We have had this discussion before and each time yours, Terje's, and similar arguments lose because they cannot be sustained with consistent examples.

I'll resurect my open challenge:

You pick the subject in the news. You pick the time frame. Lying for the Republican candidates? Smearing the Democratic candidates using falsehoods? Iraq? Torture? Illegal Wiretapping? Name it.

We will then compare any detailed examples you or Terje or anyone else can find to demonstrate that the news media is either fairly balanced or to the "left" and I will give examples that show that they are manipulating information actively to keep Republicans in power and keep the nation stupid when it comes to their policies both foreign and domestic.

John

We will then compare any detailed examples you or Terje or anyone else can find to demonstrate that the news media is either fairly balanced or to the "left" and I will give examples that show that they are manipulating information actively to keep Republicans in power and keep the nation stupid when it comes to their policies both foreign and domestic.

Honestly, I feel for you. Next time you find your self thinking like this, explain to me how you keep thousands and thousands of journalists silent on the topic. They all have to know about it, since they would all have to follow a given set of rules that drove their news organization in the direction desired by the evil overlords.

The problem for you conspiracy fans is an ancient and deep one. It goes to the core of the human being, and it shoots down every single conspiracy theory from the idea that there are aliens in New Mexico to the idea that CIA or some other organization blew the WTC apart.

What is the problem? It is as deep and dark as your theories, and it is true, as opposed to your theories. Here goes:

Three people can keep a secret if, and only if two of them are dead.

The conspiracy theories bandied about these days involve thousands upon thousands of people who know. That simply isn't humanly possible.

Edit:
Oh, and I forgot another one. This is important too.

Don't attribute to malice what can easily be attributed to ignorance and/or incompetence.

The current administration is so incompetent and so ignorant that they simply don't have the imagination or talent for malice. Good malice takes a brain, and currently there is only about one and a half to share among the entire Repugnican establishment in the entire Washington DC. Never before has such a parade of people who are astonishingly arrogant in, and even proud of, their ignorance been paraded before the people.

I guess the people get the government they deserve.

"I am not sure why you would say this. Have you tried Vista? Have you ever lived in a world with Microsoft? MS is notorious for their DRM support, and not only that, they are notoriously bad when it comes to consumer friendly attitudes in this regard."

I have Vista... don't use XP any more... and this DRM stuff on Vista... a pile of rubbish. I've ripped cd's, dvd's... done all those things that you're not supposed to do, and it works fine. It's really kind of funny.... I remember when XP came out.... all the scare mongers come out of the woodwork saying XP will stab you in the back one day. NOW... XP is a trustworthy rock and it's Vista that we need to worry about.


"They don't want to control the content, they want to control the distribution of content."

And which official told you this ? A reporter from CNN maybe, or even a M$ employee? Or is this just another unsubstantiated rumor from the scare mongers?

Oh and BTW... Sony is not exactly clean as the driven snow either... How about Sony Rootkits???

Terje,

That's a rather lengthy evasive answer to my challenge.

Feeling "sorry for me" because I am "delusional" doesn't cut it among intelligent people as an answer.

I stated a generality that I am thoroughly prepared to back up with detailed examples. I even gave an open challenge in which I would allow you or anyone else to pick the subject and time frame to give you the advantage. That is how convinced I am that I am right.

Time for generalities is over. The "proof" is in the details.

So put up or ____ ___.

John

"It's only a "theory" if one cannot sustain it with consistent examples which I can. We have had this discussion before and each time yours, Terje's, and similar arguments lose because they cannot be sustained with consistent examples."

I see both sides of this coin. I'm an American living in Canada. I don't know too much about European News, but Terje is correct in the respect that there is enough in the way of non mainstream news, talkshows... etc to offset the additional paint that is used on some of these so called Republican cover ups and similar.

On the other hand, I always watch the Canadian and BBC news BEFORE I watch the American news just to see how many colours are added/subtracted from an American news piece. The differences are pretty amazing sometimes.

I have Vista... don't use XP any more... and this DRM stuff on Vista... a pile of rubbish. I've ripped cd's, dvd's... done all those things that you're not supposed to do, and it works fine.

Just out of curiosity blink, how many DRM capabilities in Vista do you think are in place to prevent you from copying DVDs and CDs? If you don't know the answer, I do. The number is zero. The DRM features in Vista would put exactly zero blocks in your way if you wanted to copy a CD compared to XP. Your example is rather silly if you want to show that Vista is user-friendly when it comes to DRM. But you knew that, right?

they want to control the distribution of content

Not a single official in MS told me this. Neither did they tell me that they want to control the desktop Operating System world, but that doesn't mean that they don't. If you want to know what Microsoft wants in this world look at what they do.

I stated a generality that I am thoroughly prepared to back up with detailed examples.

There are millions of "examples" that will prove that the Aliens run the world, that CIA blew up the WTC, that the Jews are conspiring to run the world (don't know if they are competing with or in league with the Aliens) that the entire press is in the Republican pocket etc. These examples have all been shown to be rather silly paranoia.

On the other hand, this is so amazingly far OT that I will stop answering this right now. If you want to continue this discussion I recommend finding someone else. I have had this discussion many many times, and the nutcases never stop.

"Not a single official in MS told me this. Neither did they tell me that they want to control the desktop Operating System world, but that doesn't mean that they don't. If you want to know what Microsoft wants in this world look at what they do."

And Sony does NOT want a blu ray player in every home without a HD DVD player by its side.... and GM does NOT want one of THEIR cars parked in every drive way unless there is a Ford there too. Come on, give me a break. M$ is no different from any other company... they would ALL love to rule the world with one of their little Monopolies, yet you seem to believe that M$ is not allowed to think the way that ALL OTHER companies do..... How naive and one sided.

. The DRM features in Vista would put exactly zero blocks in your way if you wanted to copy a CD compared to XP.

That's exactly my point. You here all these people flapping the gums about Vista and DRM, yet not one has come forth with some kind of evidence that vista is any better/worse than xp from a drm perspective. Just a bunch of scare mongers.... reminds me of the time when everybody was too scared to sail too far in fear of sailing off the edge of the earth.

"Today's Oak tree is only yesterday's NUT that simply stood its ground!"

John, you're on the right path, but you've got to go beyond the Left/Right, DemoCROOK and RepubliCON spectrum of thinking.

Both of those avenues are completely controlled by the SAME PEOPLE.

And to the post about conspiracies not being possible because no one can keep a secret that long, then why are there LAWS that make conspiracies ILLEGAL if they don't exist?

People are charged with conspiracy crimes every day. The BIG BOYS just know how to get away with them because it is THEIR SYSTEM, you're just passing through.

"If you want to educate yoruself to expand your options as a consumer, then thats your prerogative too"

I see, I can either buy a car or steal one.

"If youve ever downloaded an mp3, or youve ever ripped a cd into mp3 format, or youve ever used a commercial soundtrack without license in any of your projects, then you yourself are a hypocrite for having the audacity to judge me on my apparent actions when you yourself are doing the exact same thing."

I've never done any of those things, so I'm not a hypocrite. I guess it depends on what side of the fence you're on. You're a content "consumer" and I've spent my life as a content "provider." I produce product that is sold all over the world. It represents my creative energy, my time and my financial investment. This is how I make my living. Quite simply, I prefer that clowns like you don't steal my product. I couldn't do this thing that I love for very long if I only sold one copy and suddenly it was distributed all over the world and I got nothing. You are advocating and even admitting to stealing, plain and simple, and that makes you a common thief. Yes, I have a problem with that.

I stated a generality that I am thoroughly prepared to back up with detailed examples.
=========================

There are millions of "examples" that will prove that the Aliens run the world, that
CIA blew up the WTC, that the Jews are conspiring to run the world (don't know if they are competing with or in league with the Aliens) that the entire press is in the Republican pocket etc. These examples have all been shown to be rather silly paranoia.

On the other hand, this is so amazingly far OT that I will stop answering this right now. If you want to continue this discussion I recommend finding someone else. I have had this discussion many many times, and the nutcases never stop.
=========================================
Terje,

I love this part:

"I have had this discussion many times................"

Yeah Right.!

It's just as I thought . As soon as you are challenged with substantiating your name calling with something other than flatulence you back right down. I know what your problem is and I would recommend this website for you to solve it.

Respectfully,

John

"I've never done any of those things, "

For some reason i find it very hard to believe but then again St John, i dont think youre seeing the point of the matter.
Like i said, im not here to judge, im here to discuss facts about consumer trends and behaviour and how they adapt to service their own needs

Those facts are about how monopolising a product does nothing apart from prompting the consumer to take steps to appease their needs/wants.

In most cases said consumer is then exposed to other possibilities and by taking action for that first time, and expanding their options (be they legal or not) for this one moment/instance usualy leads to an ongoing trend of behaviour.

Its that trend of behaviour which leads to the ongoing growth of piracy. THis in itself is the bigger picture moreso than any DRM or any political correct do-gooding on anyones part.
Specifically, if the rights for content have alreayd been paid for (such as an SD DVD) I personally do not see any problem with anyone downloading that same content to either retain as a backup, or to enhance the viewing experience of the initial product purchased.
Thats me and my view, as i see that an investment has already been made and the studio has already made profit.
Consideirng it costs me between 22c and 44c to print and press a DVD with case and slipcover from Thailand, then i see DVD's made (by the same factory) on the shelf hitting the $40-$50 mark, the commercial profit margin then usually hits over the thousand percent mark.
If a 1000% profit isnt good enough, then something is seriously wrong considering this profit margin is reached BEFORE the retail outlet wacks on their 25%

As a content provider, you can put a price on your product which you belive to be fair. Now lets say 25% of potential buyers dont buy said product simply because of cost, or distribution location, as your product may not be available in certain parts of the world.

What options does the consumer then have?
Do they wait for the price to drop? We would like to hope they would, but lets face it, they dont. People want it NOW.
Do we offer an international disribution channel?
This way our work can reach other parts of the world we never thought were possible and we can sell at the price we want.

What can we do as providers to not only distribute our work for profit, but also ensure that the integrity of our work isnt compromised by format shifts or "easy to downlaod" formats?

The answer is to play it smart and offer it at a reasonable price in a variety of formats.
(as opposed to premium price on one format)

Theyve been doing this with software now for a very VERY long time...
With music it too has taken on this trend, and i hoenstly do not see why it couldnt also happen with visual media such as movies

Allowing it to be attainable to certain market demographics, client bases, budgets, locations and formats based on consumer needs, not only are you expanding your demographic, but your also servicing said demographic in a positive way with very minimal loss in profit caused by Pircay. . .
Someone might have a PS3, but the guy next door might want to stream his media from his server to his laptop running VLC (as an example).
Someone else might have an Xbox360 with DivX installed and also wants to strem it from their servers (as another example).
Now, the inital product is only available on HD DVD.
Do all 3 go without the product then? Are all 3 then left wondeirng how theyre going to purchase this content? Initially thats the first thing they think about. Then becuae theyve been overlooked as consumers, and theyre viewing options have not been catered for by the companies, they will turn around and learn what other ptions are available to them

To know the consumer, one must become one.
Think as they do and learn what it is they want because if you think that for one minute the consumer is too stupid to knwo any better, then i would recomend you check out some torrent sites with accurate stats.
Its absolutely bloody scary with some files carrying over 30k worth of seeders and downloaders.
Thats a hell of a lot of money lost simply because the consumer has found a way to accomodate their needs, only because the original distributors didnt accomodate them in the first place. .

Wouldnt it be wiser, economically and demographically, to TAP into that market and offer said product to that client instead of forcing that demographic to take their own steps which more often than not breaches any and all intellectual property agreements?

And thats my point John, and sadly you failed to see that becuae like you said, your seeing this on a content providers perspective, not the consumers

This is where the failing of understanding begins. From you and from almost every other distribution channel.

Your thinking of the way of making profit, the consumer is thinking on the way of saving money and/or accomodating their viewing needs.

In the end, without understanding the consumers needs as a whole, your existance is null and void as you end up writing yourself off simply because youre too blindsighted to consider what the consumer is capable of.

As for me, I dont judge people. Im a realist.
I know theyre going to copy my work, I know Im going to lose sales because of this. And with this in mind, i make sure that my contracts are priced accordingly to ensure that even if there is a lost sale somewhere, im at least making SOMETHING from the contract to offset that loss. Id be stupid if i didint draw my contracts this way.

As for calling me a thief, you can call me what you like. Im not here for schoolboy antics.

The post and discussion i put forward was not about anyones idea of theft. It was about how easy it is for almost anyone to do as they please and nothign you or anyone else says or does will ever change the way of the consumer.

Maybe if you think like them, youll come to understand them.. and maybe once you understand them, you will be able to accomodate and profit from them.
Until then, you will more then likely frustrate yourself to sleep every night trying to work out ways to circumvent the consumer t oincrease your own profit.
Then one day it will hit you that you cannot. It will dawn on you that even the big companies have no control over this, so what makes you think you can?

Its ony at that moment will you then realise that there is a massive untapped market out there which youve missed out on simply because you let yourself be led by your blinsighted mentality.

As for advocating, this is where youve got me wrong. im not advocating anything. I was simply drawing out an example of what people do.
As producers, our creativity means nothing to them.
Our needs to profit, means nothing to them.
Our energy and labour put into our work means nothing to them.
The only thing that matters is how much it costs and how theyre going to watch it.
Plain and simple.
Look beyond the art of the business, and detach yourself for a moment and look upon the consumber as a number. Because this is what they are.
Thats not an insult, its a fact. And as youve mentioned, youre a content provider, therefore your success is based on these numbers' response to your work, price, and the options you provide to them.
Its business 101

I too am a content provider but i dont blow my horn in a way where i dis-associate myself with reality.

Those that know me, know that i respect those in the industry and the work they do. being in th game for 15year has explosed me to almost anything and everything possible.
I dont disrspect anyone, regardless of their views and i dont call them names like "clown" simply because its easier to abusive than it is to spent time explaining or educating.

I have a valid argument with valid reasoning, explaination and outcome.
If anyone wants to discuss these facts, im more than heppy to hear them out.. thats what this forum is about, discussion.. not abuse.

Im not here to pick fights as you obviously are, im here to state facts.
And if you have your own facts to which you want to put forwad and make known, i, and im sure many others, would love to hear about it

M$ is no different from any other company... they would ALL love to rule the world with one of their little Monopolies

Correct, that is the nature of business. That is why I never argued that MS was different, only that they were the same. Remember, I started my "attack" on MS as a response to someone claiming that the world was in fact not like you say above.

At the moment, both the Blu-Ray camp and Microsoft have pretty strict DRM schemes in place. My question was only - do you want the one with open standards to win (Blu-Ray) or the one controlled by a single company (MS downloads).

You here all these people flapping the gums about Vista and DRM, yet not one has come forth with some kind of evidence that vista is any better/worse than xp from a drm perspective

Again, it seems like you are arguing out of ignorance here blink. You are correct, when it comes to CD and DVD copying, the DRM scheme in Vista is no different from that in XP, but going from there to saying that the one in Vista is no different from XP in general is a huge stretch.

DRM measures implemented in XP (up to and including SP2): 0
DRM measures implemented in Vista: >0

Easy.

craftech

I back down for one reason only, this is not the right place.

If you want to continue the discussion, email me at terjeber (at) yahoo (dot) com

"At the moment, both the Blu-Ray camp and Microsoft have pretty strict DRM schemes in place. My question was only - do you want the one with open standards to win (Blu-Ray) or the one controlled by a single company (MS downloads)."

I don't see M$ being any more (or less) evil than Sony. Neither ones' standards are any more open/closed than the other. In fact Sony has more to lose without heavy DRM controls... Sony owns movie studios as well as music studios, and we all know what Sony did with music and Sony Rootkits. BMG had to issue 100's of thousands of software removal kits to disinfect customers' computers after Sony and its rootkit game. Then there is M$ which got the hand slapped for trying to muscle IE into the world's living rooms.

If you think Sony's morals are any better/worse than M$.... then I have a bridge to sell you.

And who's fault is all of this? THE CONSUMERS... for giving these operations that kind of power in the first place Well... I fear that with Blu ray... the consumers are getting ready to slap themselves in the face again by giving Sony the opportunity to control yet another section of our lives. I'll be there to say "I told you so" when it happens.

At least with M$ I can say the money is going to a place that it is needed.... to the poor. I have not yet seen the President of Sony donate his bank account to the needy... when do you think this may happen?


"Again, it seems like you are arguing out of ignorance here blink. You are correct, when it comes to CD and DVD copying, the DRM scheme in Vista is no different from that in XP, but going from there to saying that the one in Vista is no different from XP in general is a huge stretch."

Again Terje... give me a REAL LIVE EXAMPLE at how Vista and its terrible controlling DRM is going to ruin my day. This is 2 times now that I have asked. Make a BELIEVABLE case or stop flapping the gums with scare mongers' rumors.

craftech: you back right down.

I back down for one reason only, this is not the right place.

If you want to continue the discussion, email me at terjeber (at) yahoo (dot) com
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You are probably unable to remember how the comments came about. Let me refresh your memory.
Bob made the statement:
"What I find scarey is the number of SD DVD players, TVs, and shiny plastic disks that'll become landfill. The ony saving thing is we can fill in the holes we dug to make The Next Great Thing. If downloading movies saves resources I'm all for it, the economic/DRM/whatever issues are trivial by comparison. It shocks me the amount of DVDs and plastic cases I use up as part of my business"

I responded that he lives in Australia where environmental concerns haven't been obliterated by a complicit news media as they have been here in the United States.

Your reponses to that statement were as follows:

Honestly, I feel for you…………..The problem for you conspiracy fans is an ancient and deep one. It goes to the core of the human being, and it shoots down every single conspiracy theory from the idea that there are aliens in New Mexico to the idea that CIA or some other organization blew the WTC apart.

That despite my challenge that I could back up my statment and challenged you to back up your contrary opinion. I even let you call the time and subject matter.

"nutcases", "conspiracy fans", "silly paranoia" was your answer. Not a very intelligent answer when asked to back up your name calling with something of substance.

Now you want to continue the discussion elsewhere after the name calling you could not back up because you made a fool of yourself.

You did the same thing when you resorted to name calling with Blink in that awful thread a few weeks ago.

Lots of wind with no sail.

John

"And who's fault is all of this? THE CONSUMERS... for giving these operations that kind of power in the first place Well... I fear that with Blu ray... the consumers are getting ready to slap themselves in the face again by giving Sony the opportunity to control yet another section of our lives. I'll be there to say "I told you so" when it happens.

At least with M$ I can say the money is going to a place that it is needed.... to the poor. I have not yet seen the President of Sony donate his bank account to the needy... when do you think this may happen?

Ahhhh but blink look at whats happening now... the consumer is now fighting back at the "premium" costs of HD.. i mean down here, Fugitive goes for $8 on SD DVD, or $40 on BD... The price difference is jsut not logical consideirng the disc processing doesnt cost all that much more...

Despite the fact that its the consumer who bought this issue to the fore, the LEVEL of DRM and the fact that it is actually needed for certain levels of protection are for the fact of this same reason...
Consumer wants content, publisher wants to give content, but also protect it.
To protect it, they use DRM.
Consumer then wants to use content which goes against licensing agreement or more than likely consumer doesnt understand their limitations of rights to said licensed product.
BUT the consumers use is still within the consumers right to choose HOW they view/listen to said content privately.
Consumer is now stuck with content which si restrictive on how it is used/wathed/played

In any case, the consumber is no longer happy.

If they were happy, with either price or content management, piracy would not be what it is today...

Ill explain.
If a consumer is happy with a price, they will pay it.
If theyre happy to pay said price for a product they will pay it.
If a cliet pays for a product, they expect that product to be available to them at any whim.

If they for one iota of a second believe it worthwhile to save afew bux and download it, then they will opt for that instead.

As an example, one might buy a BD movie.
They want to watch it on the laptop in bed because they might have the flu and would rather recover there as opposed to hanging out in the loungeroom.
In pops the disc and voila., all they can do is watch it on the Plasma the PS3 is cnnected to...
OK, what now..? the consumer isnt about to move the entire home theatre in the bedroom...
OK, Consumer goes onlne, searches the movie and finds a dozen torrent sites.
Downlaods the movie in HD, thats good enogh for his panel and for his laptop

Keeps the file on his main desktop PC, but now through the PS3 and his lapto, he can choose to watch it in in any room of the house, on any screen he chooses in HD clsoe to the original format..

Consumer then realises that he spent 50bux on a product which is no longer needed.

He can either keep the product and continue supporting the movie house.. or he can sell his movie on ebay for 30bux, which is just enough for a couple of spindles of blank discs, considering NOW, hes discovered there are tonnes more movies out there... all free to download with noone to stop him... DRM or not...

What do you think the consumer will do? And now that the consumer is educated, what do you think they will continue to do?

IN regard to making donations, do not forget, that donations over $2.50 are tax deducable. Im sure tha tif Billy couldnt claim these donations back on his tax return, he woudnt be doing it...

I know I'm stepping into a firefight here, and I haven't read the last 20 or so posts in this thread, but this is my problem with the current state of DRM. As a content producer I am broadly in support of it and it's role in preventing casual piracy for the time being. To that end, it would be useful to lock material under a random file name so the casual pirater would not know whether or not my file was worth cracking if they came across it somehow in a pre-release situation.

However, I don't have access to enabling DRM on my content, and as far as I can see, there is no easy way to do it. What is more, I bought the "Pet Sounds" DVD-Audio 4 years ago, and as of yet, I have not been able to play the thing because it's DRM locks me out of the content. There has already been similar occurrences in the HD formats in hardware players. Playibilty to those who have paid the content has to be the priority, alongside tightness of encryption.

But again, for the time being the measures can only be used for short term prevention of casual piracy. It can be expected piracy will eventually make this routine. However, in the analog domain at least there has been an example of a system that was cracked, and new keys were issued that were never cracked again - the last versions of Sky Videocrypt. In the end, the only way to get around that was a method that used brute force, and it only produced a wobbly black and white picture at a few frames per second, just as the analog delivery method became obsolete.

DJPadre "In any case, the consumer is no longer happy. '

I don't think it's so much about keeping the consumer happy (from a DRM point of view). In fact if a consumer follows the letter of the law, then DRM will never be an issue for them (There are of course some glitches and bugs as mentioned by Robert W in the system that prevent honest people from enjoying their content... but these are glitches and that happens and they will have to be worked out).

The problem is that when one company gains too much power they then begin to apply THEIR OWN IDEA of what DRM (and other things) should be as opposed to a BALANCED idea of what it should be. If you have one company with equal power to the left and one company with equal power to the right, then more often then not you will get a balance between the 2 company's.

WalMart is a perfect example of what an IMBALANCE of power can do. A few years back they actually forced a music artist to change the album art on their cd by threatening not to carry it.

The BIG problem is that by the time these imbalances occur, it is often too late to do anything about them