e average consumer has no idea of the kind of power they hold, especially if they move in a unified direction.


as the consumer hands the power over to these big operations and they do nothing but get bigger, they begin to twist things the way they want to see them and deal with the...

Conflicting statements there?
Consumers don't care about "power." They don't care to build/design/market/research products, either.
Consumers want the trains to run on time, they want food in the freezer, they want their lives enriched by entertainment and the tools that deliver the entertainment in varying structures of easy access. Everyone wants the same thing, but at which point does the ego get parked and rational choices get made? At the point that the consumer's wallet says "this is the level of ego I can afford."
Nothing more.

go into a Best Buy and ask to speak to a Personal Shopper there. Ask about their various levels of profiling. You might learn a couple things about the "power of the consumer that the consumer has no idea of...."

"Conflicting statements there?"

Where is the conflict?

Consumers don't care about "power." They don't care to build/design/market/research products, either.

That's exactly my point (you did a much better job at wording it though). But then when a corporation gets big enough... ie; Microsoft... the consumer starts screaming "dictator" and "monopolist"... etc.

Well... how did Microsoft get that big in the first place?

Why is all that DRM in Vista?
The answer is very simple. HDCP.
Who invented HDCP, not M$, that's for sure!

Of course M$ want us downloading content!
Guess what, so do the consummers. Recent conference I shot, head brainstormer from Access Economics pointed how Hollywood don't get it, their surveys show people want DRM free downloadable content and they'll pay for it.
Sure WMV and WMA can use DRM. Even thought about using it myself. It's about the only DRM scheme us little guys can use. Odd thing although it's M$ tech they don't provide the service, you have to use a service provider.

The shiny disk in a STB player is a dead concept. Google got that a long time ago, why do you think they've been buying up dark fibre. Cisco/Linksys get it, that's one of the drivers behind 802.11n, streaming content around the home. Apple and M$ get it too. As of today though only M$ caved into the studios so their HTPC systems could play shiny HD disks. Why did they cave in, they figured if they didn't Apple would beat them to it, it's that simple. That's why there's all that DRM crud in Vista, every editorial I read down here goes to great length to point this out. In most quarters of this industry today the old moniker of "The Dark Side" or "The Evil Empire" now refers to Sony not M$. Sony are trying to control every aspect of this industry, you may see some interesting fireworks at NAB 2008, there seems to be some big guns aimed at Sony's bunkers.

Bob.

"MS hates open standards like H.264."

Wrong again. H.264 is anything BUT an open standard. Take a look on page 3 of your V8 manual regarding AVCHD and the restrictions on use. Go over to mpegla.com and see if you can navigate the mess to get a H.264 licence. Now go take a look at VC-1. First thing you might notice is M$ are only one of the patent holders, you'll also notice it's dead easy to licence it, heck M$ even give the encoder away for free. And yes, the VC1 spec is as 'open' as the H.264 spec is, both are ratified and oddly enough VC1 is available for both HD DVD and BD players. Even Apple seem to be supporting VC1.

Take a look at the original BD spec, no network connection, no ability to play SD DVDs. BD is clearly superior tech, no one would dispute that. Problem is again Sony want to clobber the tech with DRM, why I really don't understand. They did it with MiniDisk, they did it with DAT, they did it with their Walkmans. Finally there might be some light at the end of the tunnel. Problem is who today even thinks about Sony when looking for a mp3 player. They shot themselves in the foot with dumb DRM.

Bob.

Farss, remember, MS muscle the VC1 codec for HD as being the first standard HD codec for transmission and media. Not that it worked out that way completely, one reason so many studios used HD Mpeg2 for media and transmission in the beginning.

There seems to be some confusion between "studios" and "networks" here.

There are many, many steps involved between the production of a program and the transmission of that program for broadcast nationwide. Lots of equipment along the route, that so far has been MPEG-2 focused.

VC-1 or H.264 takes a lot more horsepower, and if you want to reduce the audio/video sync problem at the same time, you're really looking at a more involved engineering issue.

I take my hat off to Terje in this discussion, he has really had very clear arguments and a very clear view of the differences between the Europe and the U.S. currently, I think his analysis is spot on.

That's exactly my point (you did a much better job at wording it though). But then when a corporation gets big enough... ie; Microsoft... the consumer starts screaming "dictator" and "monopolist"... etc.

By giving consumers and businesses exactly what they thought they wanted.
Doesn't matter if you're talking about a corporation, an association, an organization, or a ladies coffee klatch. Get enough members, it requires leadership. Leadership tends to piss off at least a percentage of the membership. That's how all of life works, it's how society fragments, it's how competition is fostered, it's how elections are won and lost. By appealing to the largest of the groups with the most attractive offering. It's why iPod, in spite of it's horrible track record and less than optimal audio format, continues to ridiculously dominate sales. They make it easy, they make it fairly priced, no one needs to think.
Life is supposed to be easy.
IMO, BD makes it just that on the video content side, both as a producer and as a viewer.
Then again, i don't see the big DRM conspiracy that everyone is pointing to, either. I own a lot of content, I want to protect it as best I can. I also have locks on my doors and a .45 next to my bed. My attitude towards people stealing or attempting to profit from my labors is about the same as someone breaking into my home. A former employee once stole my name, my company name, and redirected it to his own competitive website. He also stole copyrighted works and replicated them. I honestly wish he'd broken into my home instead.
It only takes being ripped off once for people to realize why DRM in some form is important. Granted, a corporation like Sony doesn't personalize it like you or I would, but just let it happen you once. It's not only that it costs you $$, but you also feel violated in the worst way, like you've been f****d blind like a 90lb teenager in general population. Whether we're talking about Disney mis-using my music or a forum member using my copyrighted works for Vegas training, the feeling is identical.
so yeah....after that rant, I believe in DRM so long as it is effectively invisible to the consumer, and my experiences so far (with over 100 BD movies and 21 HD DVD movies, 4 BD players in 3 locations, 2 HD DVD players in different locations) is that it's invisible and has no impact on me whatsoever. Then again, I don't rip movies and don't play with torrents for piracy.

"By giving consumers and businesses exactly what they thought they wanted.'

Yup. So in the end, the consumer is in control whether they know it or not.

"so yeah....after that rant, I believe in DRM so long as it is effectively invisible to the consumer, and my experiences so far (with over 100 BD movies and 21 HD DVD movies, 4 BD players in 3 locations, 2 HD DVD players in different locations) is that it's invisible and has no impact on me whatsoever."

And that's how this conversation started.... Someone up above flapping the jaws at Evil Microsoft wanting to do the world in with that dastardly Vista and terrible drm. And again... I say to those people, please give me ONE example at how Vista and drm is going to ruin my life. I run Vista ultimate 64 (quite happily I might add) and I have yet to have a microsoft hand come out of the screen and grab me at the throat.

And as with you Spot I have HD DVD and quite a few movies now.... not ONE drm problem.

(boy.... I don't know what's happening with this board today, but I'm having major problems posting!?)

M$ developed the VC1 codec to get around the mess that happened with H.264. It's worth remembering that M$ were on the H.264 committee, they get royalties from H.264, go figure, it's their tech in there too along with around 20 others, including Sony.

VC1 is SMPTE 421M, M$ get royalties on that and so do Sony and a smaller list of patent holders. Difference is they all agreed to a single licencing system.

Today no one "owns" a new codec, there's so many patents it'd be impossible almost to develop a codec from ground zero without tripping up on someones patent. So you've got to be careful about the word "develop", oftenly the development is more about getting a bunch of stakeholders around the table and hammering them into an agreement as much as writing any new code.


Bob.

"some confusion between "studios" and "networks" here.", Coursedesign, there is no confusion really, I was just simplify the grouping because FOX, Universal, TW, Disney,Sony, all have tv networks or TV production,cable network or sat, as well as studios. Tho, media moment from production to theater is more complex, just about all the big guys are into TV networks or are partners at some level. Some of the inter- relationships look like a fuz ball when charted.

"VC1 is available for both HD DVD and BD players. Even Apple seem to be supporting VC1."

And as promised, M$ has released the VC1 codec to the general public... you can get the encoder for free.

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=5031C859-E8DA-41BC-98E3-C13ADD5378B0&displaylang=en

I think something people must not forget about Microsoft and their position is that they reached it via a continuing process of monopolisation. They have always been the biggest fish in the pond, and have used this to maximum effect. In earlier days they made a habit of stealing other people's technologies and then buying up companies as the compromised began litigation against them. The same goes for the Internet Explorer and Windows Media monopoly cases, which in my opinion were pointless, but either way, Microsoft were easily able to absorb the massive daily fines that were imposed against them.

I think something people must not forget about Microsoft and their position is that they reached it via a continuing process of monopolisation. They have always been the biggest fish in the pond, and have used this to maximum effect. In earlier days they made a habit of stealing other people's technologies and then buying up companies as the compromised began litigation against them. The same goes for the Internet Explorer and Windows Media monopoly cases, which in my opinion were pointless, but either way, Microsoft were easily able to absorb the massive daily fines that were imposed against them.
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And don't forget how they integrated Internet Explorer into the Operating System for the same reason. That fact has accounted for the hundreds of security flaws have been a large contributing factor to the nightmarish rise in identity theft over the years. And in answer to that stab in the back to the consumer, do you think Microsoft would stop integrating their browser into the OS? No. Instead they just keep patching the existing operating systems and coming up with newer and worse ones in terms of security. Thus the rise of Firefox (fortunately for the consumer). Firefox is a clear example of why competition is always good for the consumer.

John

"Basically if a retailer is above a certain threshold whats to stock ipods in their store, they MUST ALSO stock Imac products. Regardless of whether or not the macs sell, they must be in the store for teh ipod to share the same floor space."

Can't prove that around here. There are lots of stores around here selling lots of iPods. Not a one of them sells any other Apple products at all. The only other source of Apple products anywhere near me is the Cingular store selling iPhones, and they don't seel iPods.

Lots of wind with no sail.

As I said, this is not the forum for this type of discussion. I am sorry that I actually gave you the wrong email address though, so again, if you want to continue a discussion about conspiracies, try terjeb (at) yahoo (dot) com.

Ahhhh but blink look at whats happening now... the consumer is now fighting back at the "premium" costs of HD.. i mean down here, Fugitive goes for $8 on SD DVD, or $40 on BD..

You are kidding right? The Fugitive (Blu-Ray) is $15 or so at Amazon.

Lots of wind with no sail.

As I said, this is not the forum for this type of discussion. I am sorry that I actually gave you the wrong email address though, so again, if you want to continue a discussion about conspiracies, try terjeb (at) yahoo (dot) com.
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Sure,

But only if you make a public promise here to stop your general practice of name calling; and when you are backed into a corner and cannot defend your positions publically you will (even in the face of that embarrassment) refrain from name calling in public as you have done here and in other posts.

Then and only then will I be happy to engage you via e-mail so that no one can actually see you unable to defend your positions.

John

u wont find a BD movie under 30bux here if its on the retail shelf... New releases easily hit the 40 to 50 dollar mark which is absurd.
There is a promo at the moment for some new movies at 3 for the price of two, but 2 (decent) movies will set you back at least 80bux anyway. cosnidering these SAME movies are availabe ion SD between 8 and 15bux, it makes you wonder..