Shooting with a couple of SONY HC7's still - standard m2t files converted to Cineform NeoScene AVI's

I have been testing the new Edius Neo 2.5 with Booster and what it can do as a editor quite frankly puts Vegas to shame. Even my NewBlueFX plugins work with it and even reads my CineForm AVI's - all for less than $200...

I am at a cross roads now given the nature of loss in productivity - There may be a learning curve, but I"m beginning to think Bill Ravens made the right choice and moved away from Vegas due to loss in productivity.

I love the concept of Vegas Pro - especially as a 64bit NLE, but given that 32bit hasn't shown me any love either - I'm beginning to think why even bother anymore???

Cliff Etzel
Videographer : Producer : Web Designer
bluprojekt

Vegas was never stable enough for me to do anything over 20 min. Then again if i was doing a long for i would hire a pro editor and then what he/she would use would be totally up to them. But, yes, Vegas IS very easy to use but also IS very unstable.

Just for the record Cliff what version of Vegas 9.0c ? .. Which OS (Win 7?) .. and is your version of Neo Scene current? Have you loaded a 64 bit codec?
Seemed like you were doing ok with Vegas back in Oct. What changed?

Cliff's Winery trailer thread in Oct

How much memory are you running? Have you messed with the paging file? Any other applications running? Could be your projects are just too large for Vegas. Red and Black frames are a memory issue and when you restart Vegas you reset the paging file and it works for a while until you run out of memory. Then Vegas starts to red/black out portions of the video to save memory. If you have 16 gig go to 32. If you don't have 8 gig your not even in the ballpark.
JJK

I feel your pain Cliff. I was religious about Vegas up until version 8 came out at which point it became so difficult to complete a project because of it's instability that I was forced to switch to a different NLE. I still pull out Vegas if an audio job comes in or an SD project but anything beyond that I can't use it. I really do miss using it though - I had a quick edit job come in the other day and it was a joy to edit it in Vegas. It's just a shame that it got ruined.

Cliff, the red frames and problems related with various PICs were introduced in 9.0c. Not sure if you are running that version, but I receommend going back to 9.0b (I did as soon as 9.0c was released).
9.0b (64 bit) for me seems to be working better and appears to be more stable.
I feel for you and sometimes wonder why this program is so unstable lately (since v7.0e)

Ted

For some reason I feel to add to this thread of disappointments with Sony Vegas Pro.

Just purchased the software - used it twice - keep getting Low on memory messages no matter what.

I even wiped out the drive (besides what paid support asked me to try) - have only
VP 9c - still the same messages of low memory.

I have this hunch that the software is unstable because one time it worked, now it doesn't.

Have Adobe stuff running without any problems...when installed.

There's apparently a "know problem" with stills and AVCHD on timeline
giving red boxes there and in preview.

The productivity suffers: money out for software and projects on hold.

Wish the paid support was able to resolve these issues for there seems to
be a growing number of "Vegasless" Vegas Pro "owners".

Lu

What setting do you guys have RAM Preview Setting set aside for building Previews?

After getting lock-ups and hangs, to ExtMon, I have REDUCED the default from 350mb to 16mb! Now, I am NOT saying it is the same for you, but just try it out?

Grazie

JJK - Only running 4GB matched Dual Channel RAM currently - Project is 5 minutes long at the current time - project has about 50 clips, 7 basic titles, with a total of 7 tracks so far. All clips are CF NeoScene AVI's.

xberk - running Win7 64bit with CF NeoScene 1.36 build 121 (version 1.4 will not work with Vegas Pro 9.0c at the present time - I have a support ticket already into Cineform to address this issue).

I've been testing Edius Neo 2.5 Booster for the past 3 days - all I can say is performance is unlike anything I've experienced with Vegas - for the better.

JJK - are you saying that adding more memory to my computer would resolve the issues of red/black frames? My motherboard (an Intel DG33TL) only supports a maximum of 8GB Dual Channel RAM. The cost is a wash comparing purchasing 8GB ram versus Edius Neo Booster.

One thing I've already noticed is I get full frame rate from the timeline with Edius no matter what - something I can only get when I am at preview 1/4 rez - most of the time with VP9.0c

My concern is I purchase the RAM and the issues surrounding Vegas don't go away - thus I'm left with a frustrating NLE with loads of RAM.

And since I also edit on my laptop - which is maxed out at 4GB with sluggish performance with Vegas Pro, I'm beginning to wonder if the time has come to seriously consider viable NLE alternatives.

Any additional input would be greatly appreciated as I'm in the planning stages for end of year tax related purchases.

Cliff Etzel
Videographer : Producer : Web Designer
bluprojekt

Yes...I understand Cliff. I have problems with the Red frames and the freezing up after using it for 2 hours. So I went back to using Vegas 8.C. This version is rock-hard.

But Sony knows this. Sony have the hottest editor on the planet right now and they know that these issue have to be resolves quickly.

Also…the version I want to use is 9. But …like Cliff said’ Too much wasted time----time means money.

Vegas is now the most popular editor on You Tube and other forums and the Vegas community is growing so fast. With video media becoming a dominant force in everything. Internet, Broadcast, Web sites and DVD. They have now developed a Highend NLE to work with film and HD. So they added so many new features that have to work together flawless.

After watching the Sony team for the last 4 years they we have this workedout with 2 more builds.

They have too…video media will become the dominant force to transmit images to every digital product in the world. And…they don’t want to miss out on the next iPod explosion.

I'd say it's a 9 or Neoscene+Vegas specific issue. I have had (and currently do) projects far more complex then what you're saying in HDV & don't have any issues. But I almost always use DV/HDV for footage & do all my intermediate files in some type of lossess codec. I think I've only gotten black frames once, but I don't know why & it wasn't in the render.

So your projects give issues on both your desktop & laptop? Not sure why you're converting Cineform, I have an AMD Quad core & sure, things aren't always real time, but I still get good preview speed (I normally keep it at preview-auto). I even take projects sometimes on my portable drive to my wife's duel core laptop with no issues. Infact, what if you replace your avi's with the original m2t's? Still have the issues?

THF - I have been using CF AVI's to maintain image quality while in post - I've been using more filters lately from NewBlueFX and when rendering out - wanted to maintain the quality of the footage - also had been using the deinterlace feature of HDlink but lately I"ve noticed that I'm not getting deinterlacing in my 1440x1080 footage when run thru HDLink

TBH now - I'm left with some confusion around all of this since I had gone with VP9 64 bit in anticipation of increasing my RAM to 8GB (the max my MoBo supports) but I'm not sure if this is going to fix the issue or not.

I went with Cineform AVI's back when the red frame bug reared it's ugly head while editing native m2t files - it disappeared for awhile but now has come back with a vengeance.

Hence my apprehension with sticking with Vegas any longer...

Cliff Etzel
Videographer : Producer : Web Designer
bluprojekt

I hesitate to report the following for I have only limited experience with my new Win 7 64-bit OS, but it seems that 8C is flawless for editing except for limits on the dimensions of stills, whereas 9C-64 bit renders flawlessly, but won't edit without endless troubles. You might try editing in 8C then opening the .VEG in 9C for rendering . . .

I'll second that as being worth a shot. I have seen changing Preview RAM from 1GB to 256M make a difference.

Bob.

Cliff:
Sorry about the recommemdation as I thought you had 32 bit. The 64 bit may still have some bugs and I have only done very short projects in 64 bit. I still wonder though if you dropped in another 4 gig what would happen. The 8 gig in my machine cleared up all of the Vegas
memory/hang/render baloney.
JJK

Reducing RAM preview should definitely make more memory available for editing. It might at least delay the problem for a bit even if it doesn't solve it.

RAM preview sits @ 350MB - I've reduced it to 128MB - I'll see what happens.

Not thrilled with the idea of "delaying the problem". I'm tempted to rebuild the project in Edius and see where it takes me - if I can keep editing without issues given the amount of memory I currently have, it may be the straw the breaks this editors back so to speak.

Even something as simple as speeding up a track - to 600% (for time lapse) is silky smooth in Edius compared to Vegas's attempted at a velocity envelope.

I know I sound like a detractor - I've used Vegas since version 5 but 9 may very well be my last version...

Testing will be the final factor...

Cliff Etzel
Videographer : Producer : Web Designer
bluprojekt

Boy Cliff, I feel your pain and am kind of in the same boat.

The joy of using Vegas was the one-two punch of rock solid stability and great Vegas style workflow. Vegas 5 and 6, man those were solid releases. I remember a bunch of us on the forum staying up late and figuring out how to download the new release before it's official posting on the web site....

This was the software that had me gladly running from Premiere.

7 had a few stumbles as I recall but they got it worked out. 8 was the same way but had a few lingering issues. 9 has me worried. I really like Vegas and have been using it for years. I want to keep using it but I'm worried about the direction the software is headed. 9 is just not stable for me.

I'm having to use workarounds to get projects done. The system locks up in front of clients... I was hoping that after Windows 7 came out all the reports would be glowing but the word seems mixed.....

I'm hoping the Vegas team has a homerun in the works, that 9d is the uncrashable release we are all hoping for... but I guess doubt has crept in...

Cliff, all I can say is that you have to do what you NEED to do. And telling the truth, ain't being a detractor.

> "RAM preview sits @ 350MB - I've reduced it to 128MB - I'll see what happens."

Do take this down to 16mb and see what happens. Just do it. SHOULD you get a result then you DO have proof you can go to SONY with and express yourself clearly as to what you AREN'T getting. Tell it as it is.


> "Not thrilled with the idea of "delaying the problem". I'm tempted to rebuild the project in Edius and see where it takes me - " -

Again, Cliff, you are telling it as it is. Your experience is going to be so valuable to Vegas.


> " . . if I can keep editing without issues given the amount of memory I currently have, it may be the straw the breaks this editors back so to speak."

Bad . . very bad . . . . .

> "Even something as simple as speeding up a track - to 600% (for time lapse) is silky smooth in Edius compared to Vegas's attempted at a velocity envelope."

You are a POWER User in Vegas, I've watched your posts here, and this experience of yours has to be communicated back to Madison. You really need to send off something to them Maybe a VEG and some content? Get answers.

> "I know I sound like a detractor - I've used Vegas since version 5 but 9 may very well be my last version..."

Nope, sounds like you are a loyal and honest and observant chap, who HAS invested much time in learning the "Vegas" ropes but now wants to be able to use all the RAM that is available. I don;t have an issue with that! Detractor? No. Disillusioned? - Yes!

Get to SONY and report your experiences.

It would be good to hear from "others" who do a similar workflow as yourself and get their responses too?

Presently I can NOT use the default 350mb IF I want to get my External Monitor to NOT hang Vegas. I have lodged this with Madison and they know that I f[have reduced my RAM Build Preview to 16mb. You lodging your experiences can only add weight and potentially assist the engineers to focus more on this "issue". We can only hope it does and see what the outcome will be.

Maybe Madison should load your Project into a copy of Edius and see what they make of it? - Now THAT would be something!

Best regards

Grazie

I'm having issues @ grass valley's site finding a list of features to compare to Vegas, but it's system requirements are MUCH higher then Vegas.

Could very well be that Vegas's lower requirements are starting to really hinder. IE they're sacrificing stability & speed to keep it working on lower end computers.

Both both Neo 2 & Vegas 9 had that horrible looking UI, makes me wonder how long until companies worry about making ugly software vs working software. ;)

Edius is really nothing like Vegas. It's very video centric and comes from a company who builds a lot of video hardware, many of us here own Grass Valley / Canopus hardware and it is rock solid.
There is a pretty classic couple of posts on an Edius forum:

"Why is it so quiet in here?"

"What's there to talk about, it just works. "

It doesn't have an abundance of features but what it does have are generally very well implemented and designed. Their multicam implementation is one of the best I've seen, none of this chasing tally lights around a monitor trying to figure how a cut will look.
The audio tools are very basic, Vegas beats it hands down. For hardware integration it leaves Vegas way behind and they build their own and they write their own very good codecs. If you're a straight up video editor then Edius is definately worth a serious look. The GUI is twee, no question about that, no frills. Pretty decent looking text capabilities too.

But it's not for everyone, not even the Edius marketing guys pretend it is. If you regularly use all the features that Vegas has you might want to look elsewhere.

Bob.

But it can be done:

I am using Vegas 9.0c 32 bit.

Had all the problems with red frames, hangs etc. when editing AVCHD high profile 720p.

Then I started converting all the raw clips into MPEG-2 720p -(because it is my final delivery format) - just using the Proxy Stream script.
This reduced the problems significantly and added 30 FPS preview as well - and added lightning fast rendering too (No Recompression)

Then I changed to a "real" (not RC 1) Windows 7 Ultimate built from scratch - and since then - it's a month ago - I have not seen one single red frame or the like in new projects - and I do not even need the "2 GB Hack" anymore.
It seems, however, that some of my older projects (specially some started with Vegas 8.0c and later worked upon with Vegas 9.0a,b ) are kind of "infected" and difficult to open/edit.

So it seems that Vegas 9.0c 32 bit plus Windows 7 64 bit give a good and stable platform for the editing in my environment
(input: 720p AVCHD main + 720p AVCHD high + 1080i AVCHD high. Output always MPEG-2 720p).