Possible to scrub and listen to track?

paul_w wrote on 2/8/2012, 2:54 PM
In Premiere Pro, whilst scrubbing the track, 1 frame advance back and forth, you get to hear the tiny sample of audio during that single frame. So you get small sound bites as you locate the action. I find this feature really useful when cutting to a beat of music for example. Its quick.
This may be easy, but i cannot seem to work out how to do this in Vegas. Using a Shuttle Pro with single frame advance, can this be done?



robwood wrote on 2/8/2012, 3:09 PM
yeh it is "Possible to scrub and listen to track..."

use the left-mouse button > grab the video-playhead (just above the topmost track) > start scrubbing left/right

how u'd do it using a Shuttle Pro i dunno.
paul_w wrote on 2/8/2012, 3:10 PM
That gives me sound yes, but can this be done at frame level?

robwood wrote on 2/8/2012, 3:13 PM
what do u mean frame-level?

do u mean "zoomed-in-close"? ...if so, yeh, zoom in as much as you want.
paul_w wrote on 2/8/2012, 3:15 PM
Yeah, not just zoomed in, what i get in PP is single frames back and forth, its frame accurate with sound. Using the mouse is too wild, i need to get to the exact frame (by listening) for the cut. Hope i am explaining this good enough.

And i am aiming to get this function by using the Shuttle, as it has single frame location without having to zoom in and out the timeline. Basically, its faster.

Another observation, in Vegas when you scrub, the pitch changes with speed. So it can be a bit tricky to hear the sound when zoomed in, very low pitch. In PP, no pitch change, you hear the actual sound and can hear where you are in the music.

This may seem like a minor point to some, but i think this is an excellent feature of PP. Would love this in Vegas.

paul_w wrote on 2/8/2012, 3:37 PM
Hmm, maybe a video would explain better...

I shall return.

CaptureMotion wrote on 2/8/2012, 4:21 PM
I know if you just click on the playhead and drag it foward you hear the audio, you can adjust how fast it plays back and how slow depending on how fast you drag the head. I personally have never had to do this, I would always simply zoom in on track by lengthening time line, and that would give me sufficient room to cut to a track. But that is my perception of things.
larry-peter wrote on 2/8/2012, 5:03 PM
Not having used Premiere in years, I don't know it's behavior, but it sounds like you're looking for what Velocity would do, which is emulate the old tape machine behavior in "jog" mode. Where you hear a 1 frame burst of audio at play speed if you move forward one frame. If that's what you're looking for, I've never found it in Vegas and would like to see that ability as well.
paul_w wrote on 2/8/2012, 5:09 PM
That sounds very much like what it is.

3 minute video is uploading, seems to be taking forever tonight. Slooooow...

video is here:
http://vimeo.com/36445358Frame Accurate Sound Cuts[/link]

robwood wrote on 2/8/2012, 5:18 PM
so it plays slow but is pitch-shift-corrected?

yeh can see how that would be cool, but i don't think Vegas does that when zoomed-in.
larry-peter wrote on 2/8/2012, 5:28 PM
Paul reminding me of this made me realize how much I miss it. Back in the linear edit suite you'd just hit the frame forward button quickly to find the end of a s- se- en- t-te-en-ce. Then when digital tape hit you could set it to loop one frame to find the gaps between words. Nice for audio editing back then.
paul_w wrote on 2/8/2012, 5:32 PM
yep, you got it. That describes it very well.
But Vimeo (haha pro account) is being a PITA at the mo... uploading again due to fail, zzzzz

larry-peter wrote on 2/8/2012, 5:40 PM
Doggone if it isn't possible to do something very close:
In Preferences>Edit set "Cursor preview duration" to minimum. At 24fps it's 2 frames. Then use Numeric Keypad 0 to give you a 2 frame preview. toggle between left/right arrow and Keypad 0 to do almost what we were looking for. Not one frame scrubbing in real time, but 2 is pretty close.
Thank you, Vegas.
paul_w wrote on 2/8/2012, 5:48 PM
Video is now up!..

paul_w wrote on 2/8/2012, 6:08 PM
Oh, thats a close solution!, its sounding and looking almost right!
Best yet.
Now i wonder if the shuttle could be programmed to reproduce these keys clicks. think it can. But would still like single frame. 25fps (pal here) only gives me 3 frame steps not 2.

larry-peter wrote on 2/8/2012, 9:31 PM
Maybe one of the gurus of the config files can provide an edit there that would get us down to single frame previews.
Hulk wrote on 2/8/2012, 9:44 PM
Vegas doesn't do scrubbing correctly. Never did and never will. We went through this about 8 years ago. I even made a video of Vegas scrubbing and correct scrubbing using Mediastudio Pro. Yeah Vegas was (and is) the superior product but it still doesn't scrub correctly.

Scrubbing should sound like what happens when you grab the tape reels and move them across the heads. Vegas play audio at various speeds trying to approximate the motion of doing this instead of actually playing the samples at the rate your are moving the cursor over the timeline.

Vegas scrubbing is so insanely wrong I just don't even bother using it.

It's as if the developers never actually put their hands on a reel-to-reel and "scrubbed" looking for an edit point to see what behavior they were trying to emulate.

But as I said forget about it. They will never fix it. There is no update to put in an advertisement that catches the eye. What are they going to write....

"New improved scrubbing feature that is actually scrubbing!"

- Mark
ChristoC wrote on 2/8/2012, 11:34 PM
Yep, the Hulk summed it up pretty well.
[r]Evolution wrote on 2/9/2012, 4:15 AM
... "It's as if the developers never actually put their hands on a reel-to-reel and "scrubbed" looking for an edit point to see what behavior they were trying to emulate."

Many of the tools today throw out conventional methods. I too feel as if people have no idea why things are done the way they are. I guess for us that relate things back to its origin, it's hard to fathom NOT having certain tools. For those that don't know the 'why' or 'where', it doesn't matter because they take the offered toolset and adopt its reasoning & workflow.

I came into editing during the Digital Non-Linear years but was forced to learn Linear before being allowed to touch an NLE in school. I can sit down on any conventional NLE and know what's going on simply because I can relate it to the Linear flow.

I too would like to see this 1frame audio scrub feature in Vegas as it can come in handy in Premiere. I have changed my Vegas workflow to zooming in to the Audio and visually getting as close as I can. It's probably always off by a few frames though. Admittedly, I only use Vegas on small, non-collaborative things where this sort of accuracy is not vital.

Some of the younger guys I edit with look like 'Deer in Headlights' when you get 'Technical' on them. They simply have no idea what I'm talking about or referencing. Soon enough us old guys will be gone and the kiddies will have their way.
Steven Myers wrote on 2/9/2012, 4:21 AM
It's easier and faster to just look at the waveform.
paul_w wrote on 2/9/2012, 7:26 AM
Thanks everyone for the comments.

The closest solution to this so far is Atom's suggestion. I have not tried setting up a profile on the Shuttle yet, but will try later.
I really think this would be a real asset to Vegas if it had it. Personally, i dont like cutting to waveforms unless its an obvious beat and you can see the point. But trying to cut to a note change (rather than beat) is pretty hard. Its way easier to 'hear' the track and cut it right there. No zooming or guessing where the sound is you want.
Vegas can cut to beats, and its not that hard really. Zoom in, find the point, then cut. But the PP5 method is simply way ahead in terms of frame accuracy and speed. This would be nice.
Hulk, thanks for the comments, and maybe if it was addressed 8 years ago, just maybe its time for a renewal? If it turns out this simply cannot be done, then fair enough and may as well stop this thread right here. But if there is a way, surely its worth investigating. I may well contact SCS about it and see what can (if anything) be done.
Just to be clear - this is NOT a bug!! its a suggestion for improved operation :)

if anyone wants to chime in with ideas how to achieve this - please, we'd like to hear them here.

Edit: Suggested advert comment "Frame accurate audio scrubbing".. Does that look attractive?

Erni wrote on 2/9/2012, 12:36 PM
I love the Vegas option of cut audio in the middle (or whatever) of a video frame. Premiere can't.
Scrubbing is about cutting a blind old analog audio tape. Is an obsolete tech feature in this era.
You can see the audioform and then, cut. Precise and fast.

Rosebud wrote on 2/9/2012, 1:16 PM
That gives me sound yes, but can this be done at frame level?

Yes, hit CTRL while dragging the play head.
Chienworks wrote on 2/9/2012, 1:17 PM
Have to agree with the waveform idea. Zoom in, position cursor, cut. Soooooo much faster than scrubbing.

True, i'll use the JKL keys to get myself in the neighborhood, but my fingers and the system's response time aren't good enough to get a precise edit point. Meanwhile, my eyes on the wave form get it right instantly.
paul_w wrote on 2/9/2012, 2:33 PM
Rosebud, thats very close to it!

So simply by dragging with the CTRL held down, this is exactly the effect we are looking for. Note how the pitch of the audio does not change while scrubbing. You can hear the music (or whatever) clearly in frame segments. And locating note changes (not beats shown in a waveform) is easy. You can't see a note change in a peice of music. And yes, i need to be able to hear that.

What i still havent worked out is this:
Dragging the playhead while holding the CTRL key works (you still need to zoom in a bit to get to frame accuracy - but thats ok, simple enough to do).
But I need a keyboard shortcut to do this not a physical mouse action like a drag. ie, single frame forward and back per key press. (and with ctrl down of course).