"Those are the standard polite ways for people at his level (CEO) to say, "I don't think BD has a significant future."
Oh really?
Gee, I'm glad Steve has some one out here that can interpret his words for him... because we're all too dumb to understand English.
Steve didn't say that... YOU said it. You spun your opinion into fact.

"Are you an aggrieved Mac owner who is pissed off that you didn't get Blu-Ray in the box, and you have to go spend several hundred dollars to get Toast or Adobe Encore or maybe even some $29.95 shareware solution and a BD burner?"
No.
I'm a vegas user on the Vegas forums who is getting quite tired of your ridiculous Apple blather.... and it appears I'm not the only one, so take the hint.

"An NLE supports avchd when it provides a complete solution for editing avchd-originated movies. "
I'll say it again for the hearing impaired... your avchd supporting FCE DOWNMIXES AC3. That's not a complete solution... in fact it's the same thing Pinnacle Studio does. Imagine that... your beloved Apple product in the same boat as Pinnacle.

Steve didn't say that... YOU said it.
Are you saying that his statements on BD indicate that my understanding is incorrect? If so, how on earth?


...&*#$% Apple blather
See my next post.

...your beloved Apple product in the same boat as Pinnacle

God forbid that! :O) (I haven't used Pinnacle since maybe 10 years ago, trust they're as "wonderful" today...

I have never even seen Final Cut Express, so your conclusion is a bit hasty to say the least.

I understand that FCE is a consumer NLE one step above iMovie, but with nearly all of Final Cut Pro's core functionality at a price that is one third of a Vegas license.

It's main limitation is that it only supports DV, HDV, and AVCHD.
As you indicated, it downmixes 5.1 camera sound to stereo, presumably to avoid doubling the price of FCE (because they would need an expensive AC3 license), and they know there are 3rd party tools to handle this.

I hope you're now clear that $199 FCE is not the same thing as the $1,200 FCP (really FCS as in Final Cut Studio). And to save you another post, I have no idea what FCP does for consumer avchd with 5.1 surround.

So which NLE would you recommend to a Sony HDR-CX12 owner?

It doesn't seem to be that simple.

Here are two voices from BuyDigital-Camera.com:

Poster #1: Sony Vegas is probably the best solution for the workflow of the camera.

So what is the best NLE for someone who shoots avchd with 5.1 surround? I don't shoot either, so I don't know.

"For those who don't know apit, let me translate: "spin" means "different opinion." :O)" Gee, coursedesign, you got it wrong again!!!! ;-) "spin" means "totally wrong and crazy talk!" ;-)

Coursedesign, budget numbers are available thru the legally "no re-transforming/spinning" The Federal Register.

"I'm sure Steve Jobs is tiptoeing around Steve Ballmer so as not to offend him..." five years ago, he was for mobile, as he was building on Google relativeship to fight MS in the future. Steve wasn't hiding, just avoiding MS war over HD disk and gaming. Steve was changing hardware directions and saw opportunities being created by MS push to control the studios and gaming. It was a good move not to get or spend resources in MS's battle.

"Are you saying that his statements on BD indicate that my understanding is incorrect? If so, how on earth?"
The best you can say is that Apple does not support BD, but as to why is anybody's GUESS. Twist it anymore than that and it's little more than a personal opinion.

"It's main limitation is that it only supports DV, HDV, and AVCHD."
If we go by your idea of "support" then we could just about say ANYTHING supports avchd. All you have to do is transcode it.
Don't be silly.
As stated, FCE does NOT support avchd. You must transcode it first into something that it CAN understand. Not withstanding, Dolby Digital surround sound is an official part of the avchd spec so if fce can't deal with it then you can't say it "supports" avchd.... AT ALL.
Dolby license??? Sony Vegas Movie studio platinum works fine with 5.1... it's also cheaper than FCE, How about Corel Video studio... it supports 5.1 as well.

And no... FCP has no real DD support either.

"So what is the best NLE for someone who shoots avchd with 5.1 surround? I don't shoot either, so I don't know."
I do..... REGULARLY. In fact I rarely shoot stereo anymore. With Sony's HW2 wireless center channel mic, the surround sound is actually pretty bloody good. Downmixing would be a total waste of the money I spent on it.

Sony Vegas Pro works quite well..... which is what this forum is all about

I dare you to go an entire week here on the forum without mentioning anything related to Apple or Steve Jobs.

I'll accept your challenge and double dare you: I won't mention either for the rest of the month (more than two weeks left!). If I do I'll owe you $10.00, if I don't you owe me $20.00.

(I agree with Jay Gladwell that there is some money to be made here - I can receive your payments via Paypal :O)

Jay, can I sign you up for the double dare also? It looks like easy money...

Anyone else?

:O)

"I'll accept your challenge and double dare you: I won't mention either for the rest of the month" ??????? mention who????? $10-- isn't that 10 yrs of Steve's yearly salary or two years of a pro FCP editor's pay in Hollywood???? Or "one-click" by Amazon money machine selling "Apple" products....... ;-)

The best you can say is that Apple does not support BD, but as to why is anybody's GUESS.

Even if the CEO is specific about it?

Fair enough, CEOs say a lot of stuff. So we could say that nobody can divine their actual reasons.
All they can do is to state what they said and interpret that as clearly as possible.

f we go by your idea of "support" then we could just about say ANYTHING supports avchd. All you have to do is transcode it.

If the transcoding is built-in, it clearly supports it.

If you want to argue that to earn that qualification, it has to support every variant of every spec, you'll find that Vegas/DVDA can't author DVDs, because [unlike FCP/DVDSP] it can't do full scripting per the DVD specification.

Ditto for many codec variations...


Final Cut Studio has included Dolby Digital (and DTS) support since 2004. It may not include support for consumer cam AC3, I don't know if they thought that was a priority.

If "Sony Vegas Movie studio platinum works fine with 5.1" I'll be happy to recommend it. So does that mean that I can safely discount Sony's advice to a customer (per the web site linked above) to get another NLE?


Sony Vegas Pro works quite well..... which is what this forum is all about

For amateurs, it may seem that way.

For professionals, no.

I spent many years trying to collaborate on my Vegas projects with other professionals, 95% of whom were using Final Cut Pro (and the remaining 5% Avid Media Composer).

It was a royal pain in the behind, and it was the only reason I had to add FCP to my toolbox.

When I work alone, I like Vegas' editing paradigm, but there are few Vegas editors out there and the recommended interchange solutions are not exactly seamless.

If Sony wants to argue that no other platforms are to be mentioned in this forum, that is fine.

But then Vegas ceases to be a Pro NLE, because the pro world is largely FCP with a growing share of Avid MC, and pros need to communicate with each other.

Adobe is a wannabe with the very flakey Premiere Pro CS4 (although the word is that CS5 is more stable, yet to be demonstrated in practice), but they have at least implemented Final Cut Pro compatibility to solve this very real problem. Vegas would be very much helped by having this also.

Vegas is coming into the race from far behind, and it has some way to go to match FCP's 1.5 million licenses.

That is no reflection on Vegas' capabilities, just that it came from "multimedia" whereas FCP came from "film & broadcast," giving them a head start.

If you have tools that work for you (especially if they're part of Vegas Pro, which is a real pleasure to use), why not rest in the knowledge that you have the best tools for you, and accept that there are others out there who have different needs? This knowledge shouldn't erase the smile that appears when using Vegas, because it is about you, not them.

"I'll accept your challenge and double dare you: I won't mention either for the rest of the month" ??????? mention who?????

Nice try, dude, but my double dare hasn't been accepted yet... :O)

Editors' pay in Hollywood doesn't depend on their button-pushing certifications, but on their storytelling skills.

There is no limit to how much they're paid at the top, but there are union minimums ("Hollywood" is unionized, outside of that it is cold for editors, with pay in the few tens of dollars per hour).

"I'll accept your challenge and double dare you"

Nope, you posted some Apple blather between my dare and your response to my dare. I knew you couldn't do it.

"If the transcoding is built-in, it clearly supports it. "
So where's the ac3 import... you claim avchd is supported???? Geeez... even Pinnacle Studio can read native avchd

"Final Cut Studio has included Dolby Digital (and DTS) support since 2004.
It doesn't

"If "Sony Vegas Movie studio platinum works fine with 5.1" I'll be happy to recommend it.
Yes.
I've tried it and it works fine.

"I spent many years trying to collaborate on my Vegas projects with other professionals,"
If you spent many years as you 'claim' collaborating your vegas projects with other professionals, then you would know the difference between a professional and an amateur. I make money with Vegas... that makes me a Professional who happens to use Vegas. Look up the words in the dictionary for a clearer description and educate yourself. Maybe you'll actually have something to teach your PHD's ;)

"Adobe is a wannabe with the very flakey Premiere Pro CS4 (although the word is that CS5 is more stable, yet to be demonstrated in practice),"
If I'm not mistaken PP and MC were mostly used in the making of Avatar. I can't be sure if FCP was or not but there certainly was no major mention of it. So let me get this straight... you're a professional who teaches PHD's and believes FCP has the larger share.... and PP is nothing but a wanna-be.... and the term "support" means 'somewhere in or near the ballpark'.
Yup... you sure know your stuff! ;)

Just keep talkin' there Course... 'cause you're doing a brilliant job at showing the world just how full of.......... 'knowledge' that you are

Sorry, a double dare isn't a dare until it has been accepted by both parties.

Tradition says you're just chicken...

:O)

Gee..... I had visions of Twilight Zone episode where to win a bet, a guy had his vocal cords removed! But where Coursedesign would super-glue his fingers to his iPhone for strength to win the bet or where Coursedesign would restrain himself by wearing a straight jacket with the little Apple logo( like the ones in training new Apple personnel) and watch continuous re-runs Steve speeches about himself blessing the world with his pirate-ness and cleverness! ;-)

No "How great FCP" for $10 bucks for two weeks! What deal that would have been! Especially trying to get Course to break, would be the best part! ;-)

"Tradition says you're just chicken..." hehehe..... I bet John became a redhead for "few" moments.....then he realize you were playing him. ;-) Coursedesign I assume that you know that in N.M. people just don't blow-up about things, they actually enjoy blowing things up(they don't believe in CGI explosions)! ;-)

I'd have to plead the Fifth if asked if I have knowledge of such things...

:O)

"If the transcoding is built-in, it clearly supports it. "

See answer above. Are you sure Pinnacle can handle every nook and cranny of every one of the different avchd formats? If not, according to you, it doesn't support avchd.

Re Sony VMS, great, thank you. Can Vegas Pro also ingest avchd w/surround?


I make money with Vegas... that makes me a Professional who happens to use Vegas.

Congratulations, you're a professional who doesn't need to work with non-Vegas video professionals! I wonder if you have any idea how much work you are saving yourself that way.


Maybe you'll actually have something to teach your PHD's ;)

I wear many hats, and I guess I should have realized that mentioning that would be misunderstood, but it was central to the point I was making.


If I'm not mistaken PP and MC were mostly used in the making of Avatar.

Yes, and your point is?

Flakey tools can work too if you're motivated enough. As I recall, there was some specific feature in PP that they wanted to use, so they were prepared to put up with crashes for that. Or they found a combination of codec and post work that didn't crash so often.

Sounds like my early work to get Vegas to go beyond what its creators had intended.

I've been editing in Vegas since VV3 (still have the disks), and have used it for both professional audio and video.

I cut 10-bit footage long before it was "fashionable" and it was tough.

And finding codecs and best ways to exchange media files, sigh.

There is long term work to standardize it all, but it is early days yet, with barely any meat on that skeleton.

Editing sure has gotten a lot more complex since I edited film on Moviolas, on the other hand we can do so much more today.

Unless you can find some specific fault with any knowledge I have provided in this forum over I think 8 years, I'll let your non-specific slur pass.

Sorry you can't accept that other people may use tools that don't always match your preference.
That is career-limiting in this town, but I guess you're not here.

"That is career-limiting in this town, but I guess you're not here." having the "wrong" street address probably is career-limiting, its who's in your cell's contact,.....etc..... Skill set is not as critical as the above "social issues". ;-)

Human society has always been this way.

And creative people always found a way around it when necessary.

But in Hollywood, if you don't have the skills, you'll find yourself quickly lifted up by the scruff of your neck and tossed out into the gutter, because it is often a very high stress environment, especially for [real] producers.

"Are you sure Pinnacle can handle every nook and cranny of every one of the different avchd formats? If not, according to you, it doesn't support avchd."
I thought.... no.... in fact I know I've told you already that it can not import ac3. Why do you think I made the comparison between it and FCE???

"Re Sony VMS, great, thank you. Can Vegas Pro also ingest avchd w/surround?"
Yup. We've been through this one too. You like going around in circles?

"Yes, and your point is?"
You're exact words were: "Adobe is a wannabe with the very flakey Premiere Pro CS4"
That would make you incorrect.... once again.
I would suggest to you that if PP was used in the making of an Academy nominee, then it would be just a bit beyond the "wannabe" stage.

"I'll accept your challenge and double dare you"

I take it you are addressing this to apit who originated the Apple mentions in this thread, twice, while I was staying on track.;

I never brought up Apple. I just responded to his questions.

Read this thread from the beginning.

You'll see me only discussing the subject, then apit brings up Apple, followed by a brief response from me and I continue discussing the subject of the thread.

Then apit brings up Apple again, to which I briefly respond, and I continue with the subject of the thread, after which Rob Frank and others bring up Apple again.

So please send apit a private message if you want, asking him to stop mentioning whatever you think should be banned.


Let's posit (look up the word if necessary, it's a good word) some voluntary rules for this forum:

1. Posts may only relate to Vegas Pro; or scripts or plug-ins for Vegas Pro; or Vegas Pro ingest, monitoring, and output devices, or codecs that have been proven to work with Vegas Pro; or live/DVD/online training in the professional use of Vegas Pro.

2. Posts may not mention other tools for working with video. Final Cut Pro, Avid, After Effects, Nuke, Combustion, Flame, Smoke, Liquid, or any tools to interoperate with other NLEs or post production tools shall not be mentioned (because it would bring up their names, which are taboo).

3. Posts may not mention any kind of video production devices such as video cameras or still cameras with video function. This is a Vegas Pro forum, not a production social club.

4. Posts may not mention SD cards, SxS cards, flash cards of any other kind, tripods, fluid heads, dollies, batteries, or anything else related to production.

5. Posts may not reference trade shows or seminars unless they are Vegas Pro-exclusive. No mention shall be made of NAB, DV Expo, HD Expo, or any other general show that may contain enemy products potentially contaminated by their creators' impure bodily fluids.

6. Posts may not mention pre-production in any way. This is a function that is not covered in Vegas Pro at this time, and until such time tentative posters are asked to exercise their curiosity elsewhere.


John, why don't you bring this up with forum management. I'm sure it would be a big hit, and they won't mind losing the social aspect of this forum. If things don't work out because people don't see enough reason to stick around, the community could be rebuilt afterwards for not much over a million dollars or two and 4-5 years of time.

But just think of the prospect of intellectual purity here, it would be so worth it!

[VP avchd with ac3]: We've been through this one
Correct, thank you, I missed your mention of this in all the muck above.

...the very flakey Premiere Pro CS4

Find a post in this forum (any time from the beginning) that mentions Premiere Pro (any version through CS4), and you won't find much beyond grieving tales of suffering with repeated crashes.

Search the web looking for user feedback on PP, especially CS4, and you will find no end of tales of suffering with repeated crashes.

Try it yourself with a beefier project, and you will be the one suffering.

Can it be used? Sure it can. But it's unstable, and there are many things that don't work like they're shown on Adobe's World Tours, including the close linking between PP and After Effects. This is pretty in staged demos but has unadvertised limitations that have tripped up many users (memory management problems apparently).

(CS5 however is said by beta testers to be a vast step up in stability, so there may be hope for the future.)

"Find a post in this forum (any time from the beginning) that mentions Premiere Pro (any version through CS4), and you won't find much beyond grieving tales of suffering with repeated crashes."
I have CS4... I know better than you do. But ONCE AGAIN your word was "wannabe"... which is incorrect.

The point I'm trying to make in all of this (if you STILL haven't caught on yet and the above is yet another brilliant example) is that you ramble on sprouting all sorts of inaccurate opinions and expect them to be taken as fact. It gets particularly tiresome and erratic when this happens with Apple given your godly views of said company.

Coursedesign, my question to you required only a :no" or "yes"..... and a "yes" opened the door for a more specific answer about this similar Apple product. My second post to you was trying to narrow your answer to Apple FCP specifically, not 3nd party developers. And as I stated, I was curious if NAB would be dominated by 3D editing and 3D examples.

I assumed you would start preaching Appleness to counter SCS/SCC announcements which you seem to do a lot, BUT I did really want a specific answer about Apple FCP or its suit before everyone got side track by your Appleness. ;-) I assumed that you understood FCP suit well and you knew your local FCP user group well, you would be a good source..

Not that long ago, Apple had layoff a number of programmers that was in the FCP development or FCP support. I was curious if Apple was going to continue developing FCP products, or go a different way with a totally different products thru outside acquisitions. (a little birdy hinted so) ;-)