reduce interlace flicker in Vegas or DVD Arch

joejon wrote on 3/29/2010, 10:01 AM
1- Is it better to apply the reduce interlace flicker with switches in Vegas or to just choose ON (reduce interlace flicker) in DVD Architect? Or doesn't it make a difference?
2- Is it best to always apply this whenever there is interlaced video (Digital8) or only when you see flickering?
3- I don't think this has to do with the interlacing, but my Digital8 clips seem to have jagged edges and are a little blochy. Am I doing something wrong with some setting or how do I correct this? I looked at some video that I have on my old computer with a CRT monitor and I don't see that, the edges look relatively smooth. I have Vegas 9 on my new computer with a lcd monitor and also connected to an lcd tv. Is the problem with the type of monitor/tv and if so what can I do about it?

Comments

John_Cline wrote on 3/29/2010, 12:13 PM
Digital8 and low-end DV camcorders have two things working against them: a) they use DVC encoding which has 4:1:1 color sampling, there are 720 luminance samples per line but only 160 color samples per line. This can cause "blotchiness" and other artifacts. b) Low-end single-chip cameras don't have a lot of resolution to begin with and can produce stair-stepped edges. CRT monitors tend to blur this and make the effect somewhat less noticable, but it's there.
farss wrote on 3/29/2010, 12:20 PM
1) The switch in DVDA only affects the menus, not the video content.
2) Only if you have a problem. You should never need to use it with SD interlaced source e.g. D8.
3) Looking at interlaced footage in the Vegas preview monitor at Best / Full you will see some jagged edges as you're seeing both fields.

Never had any problem with D8 footage made into DVDs with Vegas that required the use of the Reduce Interlace Flicker switch. It's a very blunt instrument that adds a lot of blur to the video and in my opinion should never be used.

Bob.
joejon wrote on 3/30/2010, 9:27 AM
Thanks for the info. The sharpening does look terrible. It seems that the video in the preview window in Vegas looks better than the final output in DVD Arch, which has a more pronounced stair-stepping effect and blotchyness. Take a look at my properties settings to see if I should change anything.
Template: 720x480
Field Order: Lower first
Resolution quality: Best
Motion Blur: Gaussian
Deinterlace method: Blend fields

Audio: It says 44,100, but I thought audio in video was 48,000 -What should this be?
Thanks
John_Cline wrote on 3/30/2010, 9:46 AM
For some stupid reason the default audio sample rate in the Vegas project properties templates is 44.1k and it should be 48k. I wonder how many people are using the incorrect default 44.1k?

Of course, render properties override most of the project properties, so if you render at 48k, it really is 48k.
rs170a wrote on 3/30/2010, 10:04 AM
My guess is that its because Vegas began life as an audio-only app and 44.1 was the "law" back then.
The first thing I do when I get a new version of Vegas is to change the option in the audio project properties tab (File - Properties - Audio) to 48K and then click "start all new projects with these settings".

Mike
John_Cline wrote on 3/30/2010, 10:12 AM
Or that some audio cards didn't support 48k and SCS just didn't want to deal with all the tech support phone calls.
farss wrote on 3/30/2010, 2:28 PM
The more important question is how did you make the DVD?
In other words what were the settings used when you encoded to mpeg-2?

Secondly as you're working in NTSC then your camera shot 4:1:1 and DVDs used 4:2:0 chroma sampling which does cause some unavoidable loss of image quality.

Bob.

joejon wrote on 3/30/2010, 3:59 PM
I posted the project properties in my first post. When I choose Render As this is what it is set at:
Main Concept MPEG-2
DVD NTSC Template
Audio 48k, 16-bit
Video 29.97fps, 720x480, lower field first

I don't know what else you would set it at. I think I've always used these settings.
farss wrote on 3/30/2010, 4:53 PM
The project properties have next to no bearing on the outcome when rendering.

OK, having selected that template go into Custom and check the settings. Some of the default templates do not give the best outcomes. From distant memory some of them have dodgy bitrates and the Quality slider set to some low value. Not saying this is the problem for sure or that there even is a problem but a few mouse clicks clears up any doubts

Bob.
joejon wrote on 3/30/2010, 6:25 PM
I put an * by settings I have a question about changing. I don't understand most of this so please look it over and let me know.

Custom Video Tab:
Output type - DVD *MPEG-2*
I-frames - 15 B-frame - 2
Insert I-frames at markers is checked
Profile - Main *High*
Level - Main *High,High1440*
Field Order - lower field first
Prioritize quality over speed is checked
Video Quality - 31
Variable Bit Rate is marked
Two-pass is not marked *should be marked?*
Max bps - 9,500,000 Aver - 6,000,000 Min - 192,000

Advanced Video Tab:
Write Sequence Code is checked
Allow field-based motion compensation is checked
All options under the following are checked:
Non-linear Quantization, Optimize, Alternate Scan Pattern
DC Coeff - 9 bit
VBV buffer - 224
Next three items are ITU-R Rec, 624-4 System M or B, G

Project Tab:
Video rendering quality - Use project settings *change to Best?*
farss wrote on 3/30/2010, 7:16 PM
Try This:

Output Type: DVD
Width: 720
Framerate: 29.970
Height: 480
Aspect Ratio: 4:3 Display
I-Frames: 15
B-Frames: 2
Profile: Main
Level: Main
Video Quality: High (31)
Field Order : Lower Field First

If the video is under 60mins the you can try:
Constant Bitrate: (bps): 8,000,000


I'm uncertain about that speed over quality switch, I'm running V9.0b but regardless I'd go for quality over speed.

Bob.
joejon wrote on 3/30/2010, 7:55 PM
That's what they were already set at. It seems like everything is already at the proper settings. I'm just surprised that the video looks better in the Preview than it does on the tv after rendering (both lcds).

What is the Two-pass option? Would that help improve quality of the render?
farss wrote on 3/30/2010, 9:08 PM
Two pass makes two passes to try to get a better fit into the available bit budget. At an average bitrate of 6Mbps Average its not going to make any difference.
From my experience it's best to keep the minimum bitrate higher than 192K. It will not affect quality but I have had players stall because of very fast changes in bitrate with such a low minimum value.

Bob.
joejon wrote on 3/31/2010, 11:00 AM
So would I change the min. bit rate to 4,200,000 which is the next choice?
Any other thoughts on the the jagged edges and blotchyness?
Thanks for your help.
John_Cline wrote on 3/31/2010, 11:07 AM
How long is your video? Calculating the correct encoding bitrate is a function of length of video vs. DVD capacity.

It may be a display issue, not an encoding issue. The jagged edges and blotchiness may be a function of the upscaling algorithm and/or the LCD panel's color bit depth.
joejon wrote on 3/31/2010, 12:36 PM
You know what is really weird. I thought maybe because the preview screen is so small on my computer monitor that maybe I couldn't detect the problem with the edges. So I dragged the preview window over to my tv (32" lcd) and it looked just as good, fairly smooth for D8. But when I go into DVD Arch and preview the project/video the jagged edges are really pronounced. Even the lights on the ceiling in the background look lopey/jagged and not perfectly square as they do in Vegas preview. So it has to be something in the render or DVD Arch. I can't imaging the compression with the rendering would have that much effect on the quality. I'm going to try and see if there are any settings in DVD Arch that would cause this. If you have any idea of what to look for let me know.
rs170a wrote on 3/31/2010, 12:52 PM
I can't imaging the compression with the rendering would have that much effect on the quality.

Wanna bet?
If your video is 1 hr. long, you're taking (approx.) 13 GB. of data and squashing it down to 4.3 GB.
Under that situation, something has to give and that something is picture quality.
As others have asked here a few times (sorry for the shouting but you're not giving us the answer), HOW LONG IS THE VIDEO?
That knowledge is the only way to determine an optimum MPEG-2 encoding setting.
If you want to figure it out for yourself, use the bitrate calculator found at http://www.johncline.com/bitcalc110.zip.
Enter in the program length, use the CBR or VBR settings, customize your render template and render away.

Mike
John_Cline wrote on 3/31/2010, 12:54 PM
You didn't answer my fundamental question; what is the total length of your video?

Secondly, the preview screen in DVD Architect is just that, a preview screen. The scaling algorithm is optimized for speed, not image quality.

Let me get this straight; all this fretting and concern on your part has been based on what you see on the preview screen in DVD Architect? Just burn the DVD and see what it looks like, I'm guessing it will be fine.
farss wrote on 3/31/2010, 1:26 PM
"So would I change the min. bit rate to 4,200,000 which is the next choice?

4.2M is too high, shouldn't need more than 2.0M.
You can enter any value in any of those drop downs you like, you don't have to use the drop down option values at all.

As many above have said, the preview in DVDA is no way to judge the outcome. Burn a DVD and play it. DVDA does NOTHING to the encoded video other than mux it unless it says when you go to author / burn the footage needs compressing, If you've done the job right in Vegas that will not happen.

Bob.
joejon wrote on 3/31/2010, 6:17 PM
I rendered 4 different projects, each about 5 minutes long (D8). I put those 4 into a DVD Arch project. I just played each mpg file in a different media player instead of DVD Arch and you're right it does look more like how it does in Vegas. I didn't realize the DVD Arch preview was so poor. I looked at the bit rate calculator which looks a bit confusing but I will look at it more closely when I have more time. I still think the video is somewhat botchy and blurry but the intense stair-stepping is not there. Again, the camera is over 8 years old and some of the controls sometimes do not work so maybe the recording video heads are not that good anymore either or possibly something with the firewire connection/capture.
rs170a wrote on 3/31/2010, 6:49 PM
Since your total project is under 70 min. long, use a CBR (Constant Bit Rate) or 8,000,000.
That's as good as it can get.

Mike
John_Cline wrote on 3/31/2010, 10:24 PM
"so maybe the recording video heads are not that good anymore either or possibly something with the firewire connection/capture"

It's digital so it's not going to lose quality over time, it either works or doesn't work.
joejon wrote on 4/1/2010, 1:03 PM
I finally found something to help with the blotchy appearance. I was reading in "Vegas Pro 9 Editing Workshop" by Douglas Spotted Eagle and I changed the following setting according to his suggestion:
Field Order - Lower Field First, I changed to None (progressive). The video output/render is a lot smoother and much improved over using the other setting. I'm glad I finally have a solution.
farss wrote on 4/1/2010, 2:17 PM
I have no idea in what context he would have given that advice. Doing that to interlaced video sounds like a very bad idea that'll result in some bad looking video when played back on a set top DVD player connected to a television.

Bob.