"I'm in software business myself. The way we sell software to clients is: we deliver a product, get partial payment, then there is acceptance stage. If there are problems during acceptance period, we are not being paid the rest of the money until these problems are fixed. At least some responsibility for the product."

I don't think we're talking about the same category of software, are we? How much do you charge? Also, the way you do it kind of kills any chances of piracy(which is a good thing), doesn't it?
To implement that kind of idea in "mainstream" markets would be very costly.

As a practical matter, I am not going to argue that stealing is not wrong. After all, I don't want people walking off with my stuff, etc., etc. However, philosophically, the statement that "stealing is wrong" is itself situational, in rex's case, I suspect, specifically situational to the Judeo-Christian ethic (Ten Commandments and all that). I'm sure that there are cultures where certain forms of what we would call theft are regarded as highly moral behaviors. Uh oh! Now moral relativism has entered the thread. That's even more pernicious than situational ethics!

Another genius! Okay aboukirev, are you telling us that the reason it's okay to steal software is because if it doesn't work you have no recourse! That's utter nonsense---to compare it with oranges in a grocery store (defiantely oranges to apples) is yet another bizzare analogy. Stealing is stealing---its simple! You guys sound like spinmeisters--

Please nolonemo---we are not talking about a person who steals to feed his family---my God! We are talking about a person who steals because he wants to play with After Effects---dont you see the distinction!

Rex, I think they realize that stealing is wrong. It's just that they've argued themselves into a corner that they can't justify out of anymore. Stealing to feed you're starving child, psychopathic killers wanting a copy of Vegas, and now in some cultures it's a highly regarded behaviour.
I'm kinda hoping you're having your leg pulled here. I hate to think these examples are the best arguments they got.

M

My point was precisely that there is a distinction.

rextilleon,

read carefully. I do NOT approve of stealing. I accept the fact that it is inevitable. The situation is quite simple - all three sides are taking their risk:
- legitimate customers are risking to buy a lemon
- thieves are risking being caught
- software vendor is risking to miscalculate (price tag, development costs, planned ratio of copies sold vs. copies stolen)
Yes, software company knows about pirates and, when going to the retail market, that's part of the equation. Theoretically. Market is also a lottery.

Alexei

These warez users really have to jump through hoops to try to legitimise their behaviour - it's really funny to see them twist and wriggle !

Their logic gets ever more obtuse, their analogies ridiculous and their desperation to avoid been seen as the simple thieves they are quite obvious.

Ummm.....I know that if I start a fleet of Rolls Royce cabs, I'll make a lot of money. I can't afford a Rolls right now, so I'll steal my first one, and when I make money with it, then I'll pay for it. Then I'll steal another one.
I simply can't believe the DUMB-FU@#$@!~ that would even deign to say that there is a right reason for using illegal software. Having it for a one-time try is one thing. I'll admit I've done it. And paid for it less than 1 day later.
Developers, marketing, packaging, who was the a$$ that said software dev is free?
Come live where I live, buddy. We'll see how long you live 'for free.' You wouldn't last 3 days. Work, money, spend are what make the economy and life function.
Why is the US economy in such bad shape? A goodly portion of it is because investors don't feel that the output of America is worthwhile anymore. Why not? Because of freeloading A$$ holes like you.
I work approximately 600 hours to make a record. 1 kid can spend approximately 5 days with a computer burning copies of that CD, effectively robbing me of a few thousand bucks, and robbing the record company of the same.
Then....same kid can spend 5 HOURS uploading the audio from the same CD to the internet, where god knows how many people STEAL my efforts, my work. "oh, but it's just sharing information" says some numbnut. "Oh, the record company makes too much money" says another dipsh#$. "Oh my, I only like one song on the album" says yet another pissant.
GROW UP!!! GET A LIFE!!! GET A REAL JOB!!!! Contribute something TO society instead of wasting the air that more worthy people need to breathe.
"those that don't want to protect intellectual properties, HAVE NONE." I've yet to meet an intelligent person who is not in favor of protecting copyright. Not one. But I've met a lot of buck-toothed, slope shouldered, booger-fingered, incestual morons masked as normal people that claim all of the above excuses.
"only fools protect them selves when their country is at perish" and right now, many software and record companies are going belly up, and a HUGE percentage of it is software piracy. And those same pirates and scum sucking bastards have the AUDACITY to complain when artists, record labels, film companies, duplicators DARE to protect themselves from financial and creative rape.
Vulgar? Damn right it is. Every last bit of all of it. If you are using pirated software, listen to downloaded, copyrighted MP3's, piss on you. or worse.

I don't appreciate being labeled a warez user simply because I am arguing a point (if you were including me in your statement). I you bothered to read the postings carefully, you would see that I expressly said that I was not arguing that stealing was not wrong.

I'll bet that if your boss shorted you a couple days pay because he decided, "There's no way I'm paying x clams for that schmuck right now ... but if things get better, I'll pay him what he's owed..." you'd have a real serious problem with him. How do you think Adobe (or anyone else feels) about the work they put into their software that you so blatantly steal.

Stealing is stealing. Don't be ****. Pay for the software you use.

-- Jon McPhalen
-- Dallas, TX

Even if you're a starving student, you still have LEGAL options. Download the free Microsoft Moviemaker 2. It's not a bad piece of software. If you can only afford to spend a few bucks, get Video Factory. If you need a $200+ piece of editing software, buy Vegas.

In almost any software category there are free, cheap and expensive solutions. Don't want to pay $700 for Canopus Procoder? Get TMPGenc. Want a cheap DVD authoring app? Ulead DVD MovieFactory will do the job, if you can't afford DVD Workshop. Don't want to pay for Microsoft Office? The totally free OpenOffice is just a download away.

Sverre

If you steal a Rolls Royce, you are costing RR money directly because THAT car cost money. Software is different. Making it costs money (equiv to R&D) but manufacturing it is free. I stole a copy. That copy cost nothing. Your analogy is invalid.

Your eyes must be brown because you're full of sh*t. Every business has to deal with "lost opportunity" which does, in fact, hurt their bottom line. Intellectual property is still property and stealing is still stealing.

It's tragic ... the welfare "I don't have to work"/"I don't have to pay for anything I deem to expensive" mentality that so many people in our country have today....

When I finished my studies and got my first corporative jobs, I bought Vegas 3 (my first job paid the program).

I'll bet you'll feel differently the first time a client stiffs you for a year using a product (video) that you sweated over for them....

Here's my question on the topic? What percentage of those using pirated Sonic Foundry software are using it as professionals or 'serious hobbyists'? Since I've made some decent money over the years with SF stuff I've probably come close to paying back for all the money I've spent on their products. I always buy at the early upgrade price and own Acid, Sound Forge and Vegas in their most recent versions along with various plugin packs that I bought before they were included in later upgrades.

My guess is that people that are using pirated copies of SF products are jumping from one cracked copy of this to another cracked copy of that and not doing a whole lot of creative music and video. Maybe I'm clueless but are there a lot of professionals in the field (wedding photographers, commercial editors, working musicians and producers) who are using pirated Sonic Foundry software? My guess is that its just a bunch of folks who never really learn and develop their skills with the software. They don't really WANT the software, they don't know what they want they're just trying everything they can download.

Or am I a pirated/cracked understander dodo?

I think you're right that there are fewer pros using pirated software. One of the reasons why that is...The purchase price of the software is tax deductible.
I'm a hobbyist, so none of my software/hardware expenses are tax deductible.
Doesn't mean I use pirated software. I guess I have more developed conscience. :)

M

I am gonna download the vv4 demo when it is out, and buy the serial!

Here is my story:

I live in Thailand and as you may have heard, all software can be bought for a buck or so in this land of smiles. It's really sad to see that almost all home users when they buy their PC have most of the well known expensive software outthere on their PC pre-installed, to name a few: Premiere 6.5,photoshop,illustrator,macromedia flash-authorware-dreamweaver,maya,studio MAX 3d, Microsoft Office. The worst part of it all is that most of them have no idea how to use these softwares that is bloating their harddisk.
Heck! some buy warez CDs just for the sake of feeling good in owning expensive "goods" for free. What a Pathetic neurosis.

As you may have already guess, I use 100% legal softwares on my PC and I am bloody proud of my accomplishment. My pet joke to my friends here is "that I am most probably the only home user dude in 100Km radius to own legal stuff"...On second thought after further observations, I think I will make it 300 km radius ;)

Am I rich that is why I can afford to buy the expensive price tag? no way, I am butt poor. No joke here. I started out editing DV with a bundled software that came with my ADS firewire card. Actually 95% of my software are either from bundled source or GPL/GNU.

About 10 months ago, I decided to upgrade to vegas video. After seeing the price for 3.0, I decided to ask around for a second hand copy of 2.0 but to no avail. To make the story short, by pure luck , someone who was extremely generous decided to give me a legal copy of his vegas video 3.0... At first I couldn't believe it and was suspicious about the anonymous person's credibilty (who knows right? he might have given me a warez) but after further digging I found out that the dude was OK and honest as can be. Not only did he made me a Video Vegas fanatic by his gift, but also a firm believer that miracles can still happen :)

So there, a lesson I learn: if you persevere to walk the honest path with intergrity and patience, you might get lucky and get a break from time to time.

So you called and got a new serial number to register your 'gift' Vegas 3 with Sonic Foundry? I've never bought a boxed SF product. Does the serial number work on any PC or does it have to be registered and you get a serial number like online?

Geez, if they have a simple serial number in there boxed sets, no wonder there are so many pirated copies.

I do what everybody does: registered online and got my reg file in my e-mail box.

All Sonicfoundry products comes with a serial on the box BUT, similar as windows XP, after the installation and input of the first serial number you'll need to go online (or call customer service) to get another string of serial to unlock it. Each computer/harddisk has a different ID number and Sofo keeps a database of the registered users profile.

I think their protection scheme is pretty good but of course nobody can stop crackers keygens that is outhere.

I think we lay this one to rest---Shaunn you are a class act!

I second that!!!