"What smart-rendered (no-recompress) HDV format can I render to in Vegas Pro that will open in "out of the box" Final Cut Pro as well as Premiere Pro etc.?"

Respectfully submit that your premise is wrong. Smart rendering with no recompression can only be performed when rendering to the same codec as the original. If you render to *any* other codec, no matter how closely related, your video will have to be decompressed and recompressed.

>> Respectfully submit that your premise is wrong. Smart rendering with no recompression can only be performed when rendering to the same codec as the original. If you render to *any* other codec, no matter how closely related, your video will have to be decompressed and recompressed. <<

Kelly, what I'm hoping is that an alternative "flavour" of smart-rendered MPEG2 file can be read in FCP. Maybe it can accept a program stream or an elementary stream instead of a transport stream?

Stephen, thanks for the offer. I'll upload a file a little later.

Nick I found these standalone converters that will convert your files.

1 MPEG Stream Clip which has both Mac and Windows versions and seems to be what most FCP users are using to convert and import .m2t files. It even has a watermark feature.
I suggest you download and try a conversion then send it to me or one of your clients to test in FCP.

http://www.squared5.com/svideo/mpeg-streamclip-win.html

2 AVS Video CONVERTER.
http://www.avs4you.com/AVS-Video-Converter.aspx?type=GoogleImageAds&gclid=CPGbsPjvzZgCFQFVgwodhjDO0Q

Runs under Windows but costs is currently $49.95 US.

New Hope Media

Nick

I tried the Mac version MPEG Stream Clip. It's free software by the way.

It certainly works and does the conversion quickly but creates a QuickTime movie that is 10x larger in file size than the .m2t. This is also what I find when importing AVCHD files from my Panasonic HMC-152EN. The converted m2ts files grow by a factor of around 10X when they are converted on import into FCP to Apple ProRes 422.

My suggestion is that you send your clients a link to the Mac version, it's a small download, and allow them to do the conversion themselves.

It's the simplest option, creates minimum work for you and no additional cost, other than conversion time, to your clients.

New Hope Media

Stephen, thanks for your help.

I tried MPEG Streamclip for Windows but unfortunately it crashes on my XP machine no matter what I load into it, including HDV m2t and DV AVI. I followed all the steps in the readme, including rolling back my Quictime Alternative. But providing a link to MPEG Streamclip along with my footage is probably not a bad idea. I expect it would work fine on the Mac in most cases.

I was a little wrong in my assumption earlier that an MPEG2 program stream could be smart-rendered from HDV natively in Vegas. Now I test it I see it does in fact recompress. It appears I can only smart-render transport or elementary streams.

Here is a typical HDV 1080i-60 file for you to try to get losslessly into FCP. It's 20MB. It was shot with the Sony Z1P, captured with HDVSPlit, trimmed in Vegas 8.0c and rendered to HDV with "no recompress" on:

http://www.bubblevision.com/HOWanthias-orange2a.m2t

To be honest I'm quite shocked that FCP cannot even open these files. It seems a huge advantage to Vegas that it can not only open the original HDV m2t files but it can work quickly and smoothly with them. No? Right now I can carry my entire archive around with me on 1 x 750GB drive. If I was using FCP it sounds like I would need to have a number of them with me to do this.

Another alternative I'm pondering... Womble MPEG Video Wizard can smart render an MPEG2 program stream from an HDV transport stream (it's what I used to do before Vegas could smart render). I wonder if FCP could open that? I'll encode one and upload it for testing.

While we're at it, can Premiere Pro, Avid, Edius etc. open HDV files?

Nick

OK, I losslessly converted the HDV file from MPEG-2 transport stream to program stream using Womble MPEG Video Wizard. Can FCP open this?

http://www.bubblevision.com/HOWanthias-orange2a-MVW.mpg

"While we're at it, can Premiere Pro, Avid, Edius etc. open HDV files?"

Ppro CS3 seems to have no problem opening m2t files captured in Vegas.

One of the problems we've faced with FCP users is they don't all have the latest version or the latest hardware. We ask before we rent, they say "Oh yeah, I got this uber slick Mac .....". Then they come back and say they can't open files from the EX cameras or some even capture HDV and then they finally admit they're using something that was the latest and greatest a few years back, like some old G5 or worse system.

Maybe you should look to using one of the universal near lossless codecs. Most stock footage libraries seem to do this, very few seem to offer footage in native codecs.

Bob.

>> Maybe you should look to using one of the universal near lossless codecs. <<

Such as?

( Still interested in whether FCP users can open that program stream MPEG file.

Also interested to know exactly what I should instruct FCP users to do in MPEG Streamclip in order to get a .m2t HDV file into an FCP-ready format. )

Nick

This link is returning a message that the 'image or movie has been moved to www.bubblevision.com'

The previous link worked.
Bob's comment that other stock footage sites use generic codecs is correct but as there are converters having your m2t files online is going to allow you, and your end users, to deal with smaller files, as long as they can convert them at their end.
As for FCP not being able to open m2t files it's a Sony format file and FCP tends to convert codecs like AVCHD (m2ts) P2 Intra, etc into a format that it uses. I guess they figure that in the end they have to be converted to be used as an edited video and may as well be converted on import.

If you are capturing from HDV in FCP then there isn't a problem and Sony have released a plug-in for importing m2t from their solid stae recorders it's just where the capture has happened using another NLE that there is a problem. Until Apple released their Apple ProRes for Windows codec Vegas couldn't open files captured by FCP in Apple ProRes.

Sony needs to release a similar codec for FCP and Premiere Pro that doesn't rely on the m2t files being in a directory structure created by the drive recorders and that would solve the problem.

New Hope Media

"Such as?"

I think Artbeats use the QT Animation codec. Pretty big files but they open fine in Vegas and should open fine in every version of FCP, Ppro etc.

Bob.

>> This link is returning a message that the 'image or movie has been moved to www.bubblevision.com' <<

Ah, I set that up ages ago to stop people hotlinking my mpeg1 files!. "Right click > save as" will let you download the file.

Will reply to the other stuff later.

Nick

The right click and save as... option only saved the blue box with the error message but not the actual MPEG.

Also interested to know exactly what I should instruct FCP users to do in MPEG Streamclip in order to get a .m2t HDV file into an FCP-ready format.

The software for Mac is fairly simple to use with a reasonably good user interface.

All the user needs to do is 'Open' the file. They can then play the m2t file before they choose to export it to Quicktime (other options are AVI, DV, MPEG4, Audio, and any other format supported by Quicktime Export on their Mac, for instance I have a Flash Encoder from ON2 which is also available to me under Quicktime inside FCP, MPEG Stream Clip even the Quicktime player... but I digress...).

All the codecs installed by FCP are available including HDV 1080i60 but also DVCPRO, Apple ProRes 422 etc are able to be chosen as the new file format.
They then save the output file and the new file is exported in the format, pixel ratio and audio format they choose.

It's really a 'no brainer' if they are used to exporting Quicktime files from other apps like FCP.

New Hope Media

I use Tmpeg express 4… apparently the latest update allows you to rip from AVCHD direct to QT or mpeg4

The older Tmpeg 4 rips to mpeg4 but reads in FCP as mpeg2

Thanks very much for your efforts guys.

>> I think Artbeats use the QT Animation codec. <<

Ah, I think I'd need to install full Quicktime Pro for that. Right? I don't really like Quicktime for Windows and I have Quicktime Alternative at the moment but I would put full Quicktime back on for a good reason such as this.

>> The right click and save as... option only saved the blue box with the error message but not the actual MPEG <<

Cousin Stephen, it works here but anyway I've taken the mpg entry out of the .htaccess file on the server so hopefully it should download now. I'd still be very interested to know if FCP and other NLEs can open the program stream version.

>> I use Tmpeg express 4… apparently the latest update allows you to rip from AVCHD direct to QT or mpeg4 <<

Ah xfx, I also have TMPGenc Xpress 4 but I keep overlooking it. It encodes an enmormous number of formats. Perhaps it can do the same thing as MPEG Streamclip (which still crashes on my PC with Quicktime Alternative 1.81 and I don't really want to install full Quicktime and buy the Apple MPEG-2 codec if I can avoid it).

>> All the codecs installed by FCP are available including HDV 1080i60 but also DVCPRO, Apple ProRes 422 etc are able to be chosen as the new file format. <<

Could you give me an estimate of relative size of files encoded with these codecs? Is that "HDV 1080i60" codec you mention still a flavour of MPEG-2? What are it's specs?

On Mac, Mpeg StreamClip, QuickTime container, format = "Apple 1080 50/60i", 100%, "1920x1080" (creates expected aspect ratio but as far as I can see still at 1440x1080 pixels). Filesize almost identical to original m2t. In my limited experience, better-looking result than ProRes. Opens fine in FCP.

No idea what happens when encoding this way, would likewise be interested to find out.

Thanks Faussenplate. I've got MPEG Streamclip working now (needed to disable DirectDraw acceleration in the Quicktime preferences) so I'll do more testing including your proposed settings.

In the meantime I have to apologise but the files I linked to above have data breaks in them caused by the crappy internet connection I'm on at the moment. I'll fix them tomorrow and download to verify *blush*

Nick

I downloaded the MPEG and it can be imported into FCP but not very successfully. It doesn't import the audio and won't play correctly. In addition the file pixel ratio is 1440x810... very strange.

I converted your m2t original to a Quicktime .mov using MPEG Sttreamclip and selecting Apple HDV 1080i60 Compression and Frame Size 1440 x1080 (unscaled) the resultant .mov file was 19MB compared to 18.4MB for your original m2t.

It imports without any problems into FCP and includes audio, though your original, and I've downloaded it twice, has some data breaks in it which MPEG Streamclip reports and can be seen when playing the original and the exported .mov version. The image jumps. (Edit) OK I was writing this when you posted your last and now know why there are data breaks.

Other than the data breaks MPEG Streamworks seems to be the answer for supplying your m2t files in a format FCP users can import.

http://www.newhope.com.auNew Hope Media[/link]

Another FCP user told me that the mpg version opens at less than full res also. So I think to supply mpg versions as stock would be asking for trouble, even with clear instructions to convert in MPEG Streamclip.

I have fixed both files now and I'm still interested to know how they open in other NLEs, in particular FCP:

m2t transport stream version

mpg program stream version

Incidentally, even with Quicktime Pro installed on Windows, MPEG Streamclip doesn't offer the "Apple HDV 1080i60" option. That codec must only come with FCP. So I'd definitely be looking at asking the customer to convert.