SonicEPM...please address this issue!

craftech wrote on 3/26/2002, 5:13 PM
Hi,
I have checked all previous posts both here and on Creative Cow regarding this filter. I have been experimenting with it for over 24 hours and I can't seem to get the hang of it. I am trying to use it to improve my VHS dubs printed from the timeline using my camera as the converter. A proc amp is usually used to desaturate color a little bit. I have been trying to do that using this filter, but it doesn't seem predictable.
For example, when you open the plug-in it has already whacked out the Hue, Saturation, and Luminance so there is no reference setting to go by. All attempts at returning the settings to what they were supposed to be(whatever that was)are virtually impossible to duplicate. When the plug-in opens, the preview window (external monitor)has already gone into SciFi mode so you can "preview" changes in the plug-in's effect. But the plug-in has so drasticaslly altered HSL that you are looing at an extreme mess. The histograms tell you where there is heavy contrast, etc and if it is out of broadcast specs, but nowhere does it tell you what to do with it. I have tried rendering the whole project in Broadcast colors with clamp, but there was no visual change....only a change in the histogram.
What ends up happening is that I am forced to render a loop region to check each minute adjustment which eats up endless hours collectively. I have tried other filters and when they open they don't seem to throw off the initial setting as much as the HSL filter. The sharpen filter was predictable in that it added noise to the dubs.
There is no way to see what VHS dubs will look like until you have prerendered and printed to tape and then played it back to see the bad results. If you are making small changes it can drive you crazy.
Working in DV is great, but customers aren't able to benefit from it. They are still getting crappy VHS dubs. It's the one issue no one seems to want to tackle, yet it affects many of us.
A tutorial would help:
Any articles I have seem describing ways that software can do what a proc amp can do are not descriptive enough. I would venture to say that if SF developed a Step by Step Tutorial on how to use VV3 to improve VHS dubs and spread it all over the internet it would increase sales of the software since no one else is doing it. They might buy the software just to be able to follow the step by step tutorial.
Am I overlooking something simple here with the HSL filter?
Thanks in advance.

John

Comments

craftech wrote on 3/27/2002, 7:56 AM
Anyone want to tackle this one? Even if you are not so sure I would really appreciate any input.
Thanks,

John
Former user wrote on 3/27/2002, 8:25 AM
Do you have any preset options? Most of the plugins have a RESET to NONE or a Default setting.

Dave T2
craftech wrote on 3/27/2002, 9:12 AM
No. I was wondering if this is a known bug. I haven't upgraded to 3a yet. I have been afraid to after reading a bunch of posts. With no presets the colors go haywire when I open the plug-in.

John
SonyEPM wrote on 3/27/2002, 9:29 AM
The HSL filter is not that much different than a proc amp. A little goes a long way, so there's no need to crank every control to the extreme.

If the scene is too dark, try boosting luminance to 1.50, and walk in the level from there. Saturation you probably don't have to touch. Add to hue works like phase on a proc amp.

If you get stuck with a totally unacceptable look, you can always call up the "reset to none" preset. Or, double click on a slider button and that will reset that control only to the default (no op in HSL).

When you have a look you like, save that as a preset. If you are using long source clips, you can apply the filters to the media, rather than to individual events that reference the same media (time saver).
craftech wrote on 3/27/2002, 9:40 AM
The problem is that when I open the plug-in the colors on the monitor instantly go haywire. The sliders are moved to extremes and there is no reference as to what they were set to in order for me to adjust them. This can't be normal. With the other plug-ins I can adjust them while I view them. With this one, I can't because it changes drastically when the plug-in first opens giving me no reference level.

John
SonyEPM wrote on 3/27/2002, 9:59 AM
if you choose the "reset to none" preset, what happens?
craftech wrote on 3/27/2002, 10:28 AM
nothing
SonyEPM wrote on 3/27/2002, 10:59 AM
perfect- then add a tiny bit of brightness....now you see?
craftech wrote on 3/27/2002, 11:39 AM
I am probably not making myself very clear. I'm sorry. Here is what is happening:

1. Previewing on external monitor.
2. Cursor is in the middle of an event which I plan to modify with a filter.
3. I select the HSL filter (monitor up to this point has been showing the video image unchanged.
4. Filter opens when I select OK
5. Image on monitor immediately turns violet with some pixellation.
6. H slider is at 0.00, S is at 1.00, and L is at 1.00
7. Double clicking on the sliders or choosing "reset to none" does nothing because they are already at that setting.....but image is violet.
8. Begin fiddling with sliders to try to restore picture as it was before filter opened. Can't be done. "Reset" brings levels down to 0.00, 1.00,and 1.00 and image is back to violet again.
9. What am I doing wrong? That is the only filter which I have tried so far which alters the image as it opens.

John
SonyEPM wrote on 3/27/2002, 12:27 PM
what hardware are you using to capture and preview to external monitor?
craftech wrote on 3/27/2002, 12:52 PM
It does the same thing in the preview window.

It doesn't happen with the color curves plug-in, levels, or black restore, or broadcast colors, or film effects.......only the HSL plug-in. I actually haven't tried them all yet, but if the others aren't causing a problem why should the HSL plug-in cause a problem, especially when I am not passing it through firewire. I have prerendered this loop event 6 times with different filters and all of them worked. They didn't give me what I was looking for, but they worked. I could try re-installing the program, but I would rather leave that as a last resort. Trust me it's not my computer or hardware settings, Irq's, video card, etc.
I don't want you to think I don't appreciate the help.....I do. You have spent the better part of a day trying to help me and I really appreciate that.

John
SonyEPM wrote on 3/27/2002, 1:22 PM
I would still like to know:

what hardware are you using to capture and preview to external monitor?

what kind of files (format, compression) are exhibiting this problem?

If we can reproduce the problem here, we'll be able to better diagnose/solve your problem.

craftech wrote on 3/27/2002, 3:39 PM
I am using a Sony VX2000 and capturing via firewire through an ADS pyro firewire card. I am capturing using capture utility in uncompressed avi and am printing in NTSC DV uncompressed format back out to camera. To print to VHS I am using manual start. The rest is default. The analog outs on the camera go through a distribution rack into 10 VCR's. The external monitor is hooked to a switchbox which is connected to the a/v outputs of the VCR's to verify record. I have printed to tape using the plug-in's above with the same loop. I have printed to tape with no plug-ins. I am enabling the plug-ins through the preview window after selecting a region to loop. I switch back and forth between external preview and the preview window. The phenomenon occurs either way. Windows 98SE......512MB ram.......PIII850 SECC2 on a Soyo 6BA+100 Intel 440 BX board. Voodoo-5 5000 80GB 7200 WD HDD for video files
40GB 7200 WD HDD for OS and program files . Computer is for Video editing only. Network card and Burner. Internet disconnected, mouseware disconnected, only system tray and explorer running . Display 800x600x32 bit. No screensavers, etc
90%system resources free....no conflicts......video card & firewire card do not share IRQ..Sound Card is Turtle Beach Santa Cruz.....seperate IRQ. System is not overclocked.......etc

John
craftech wrote on 3/28/2002, 8:06 AM
Good Morning SonicEPM,

I was wondering if you had any other suggestions as to why I can't seem to get HSL to work.

John
SonyEPM wrote on 3/28/2002, 11:03 AM
You are capturing uncompressed avi? or DV shot with a DV camera? (big difference).

With DV source material, I cannot repro, so until we can zero in on the problem I suggest you skip HSL, and start fresh with Brightness and Contrast + Color Balance.

Vegas has 11 color correction tools and I'm sure you can find a combo to work.

craftech wrote on 3/28/2002, 12:10 PM
SonicEPM,
Capturing DV....sorry. You are right about the other tools. Perhaps I am laboring too long on the one tool. Once again thanks for all the time you spent with me on this problem.

Sincerely,

John
craftech wrote on 3/28/2002, 8:15 PM
I found out something which might give us a clue as to what is going on. I started the program with the camera disconnected from the firewire, and I was finally able to use the HSL filter without the above phenomenon happening. As soon as I turned the camera on and it said "device connected", the color turned violet. I disconnected the camera until it said device "disconnected", but the color still wouldn't go back to normal even though I tried to reset the filter. I deleted the filter with the camera "not connected" and opened it again and it still turned violet. I had to close the program and reopen it with the camera disconnected from the firewire before I could open a Veg file and apply the filter without the color changing. Any ideas???

John
craftech wrote on 3/29/2002, 2:09 PM
SonicEPM,
If you have a chance today, could you look at my post from 3/28/2002 8:15:17PM
Thanks,
John
miwi21 wrote on 3/29/2002, 4:32 PM
His problem with HSL is exactly duplicated on my system.
craftech wrote on 4/1/2002, 5:46 AM
Good Morning SonicEPM,

Two of us are having this problem now. When you get a chance could you try to duplicate the problem and check it out. Please check post dated 3/26/2002 8:15:17PM (craftech) for the updated information since we last spoke. Miwi21 was able to duplicate the problem. Thanks.

This problem is apparently not a new one I found this thread from last July:

http://www.sonicfoundry.com/Forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=12&MessageID=72444

John
SonyEPM wrote on 4/1/2002, 7:56 AM
Sorry to hit you up with more questions...

1) The footage was originally shot on your DV camera ?

2) If you are using the DV camera as a transcoder, what is the format of the source footage you are capturing?

3) Has any of the footage you are using been compressed to the MPEG format at any time?

4) (Wild guess) Do you have or have you had, any VideoWave software on your machine?

I have tried to repro the problem using a Sony DVMCDA-2 media converter, Canopus ADVC converter, and Canon GL-1 camera. No repro with DV or MPEG source material (Mpegs rendered in Vegas).

The answers to the above will help us zero in on the problem-

craftech wrote on 4/1/2002, 12:37 PM
"Sorry to hit you up with more questions..."

"1) The footage was originally shot on your DV camera ? "
Yes

"2) If you are using the DV camera as a transcoder, what is the format of the source footage you are capturing?"
MiniDV at SP with 16-bit audio shot on a Sony VX2000. Captured at default settings using Video Capture.

"3) Has any of the footage you are using been compressed to the MPEG format at any time?"
No

"4) (Wild guess) Do you have or have you had, any VideoWave software on your machine?"
No

I have tried to repro the problem using a Sony DVMCDA-2 media converter, Canopus ADVC converter, and Canon GL-1 camera. No repro with DV or MPEG source material (Mpegs rendered in Vegas).

The answers to the above will help us zero in on the problem-
SonyEPM wrote on 4/1/2002, 12:51 PM
miwi21: Do you have a

Pyro?

VX2000?

98SE?
miwi21 wrote on 4/2/2002, 7:33 AM
I have Dell XPSB 1000r
256RDRAM
30g Seagate OS HD
2 IBM 60 g 60GXP
98SE
Card is TI, OHCI, (Dell OEM?)

I do have VideoWave III, came installed with unit, no problems with VV (started with 2.0b), now with 3.0.
I do have a VX2000 but the video I'm using was shot with a Sony D8 TRV510 which is also used as the connection to the external monitor.

The footage was not converted to MPEG.

I notice that if you have external monitor turned off, you can open HSL OK and then open external monitor and it appears OK, but any adjustment causes it to go into "violet mode", if you have external turned on when HSL is opened then it's violet and there's no going back.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do to help.

SonicEPM, did you get my suggestion that the Track Composite Level video envelope change color, green at 100% or 0%, red at any other value, good idea?