Sony doesn't recommend Vegas?

farss wrote on 3/24/2005, 3:04 AM
You read it right and it's official, just got the local copy of "SCAN", the local Sony newsletter. Now imagine my surprise when I learnt from it that they recommend Pinnacle Liquid Edition and they'll be selling it in all their retail outlets. Could that be why there's been a recent update to this forum, to make way for a Pinnacle forum here?
Ah, but it gets even better. Remember Sony was the company that told us they'd rather see us burn in hell before they let us shoot progressive, well unless you could afford a CineAlta camera that is. Well there's been a rather sudden turn around there too, their latest DB cameras have been upgraded to shoot, ah well 24PsF and 25PsF. That one caught my eye too, what the heck is PsF? Could it be Progressive SIngle Frame?
But wait there's more. Big news on the audio front. They've started to push the Sony Oxford Plugins, best noise reduction tools on the planet (and reading what they can do if it's only half true they're right) but do they work with Vegas, nah.
But there was some good news, Sony finally have a HDCAM deck that is affordable, still expensive but at a price that wouldn't make the bank manager choke.
Now OK, I know this isn't really Sony here but come on guys, just when does it makes sense for any company to be promoting their competitors product or have the tables changed now that Avid owns Pinnacle, is Vegas giving Avid too much of a run for their money and Avid gave Mr Sony a tap on the shoulder?
So lets have a little competition, lets see who can come up with the whackiest conspiracy theory to explain all this. I'll personally present the winner with a 100 gram jar of Vegemite at NAB.
Bob.

Comments

FullCircle wrote on 3/24/2005, 3:32 AM
I thought it would be full of theories here within minutes..
Can't think of a good one myself.. I'm too puzzled and busy figuring out what to do (all options include doing everything with Vegas as long as the customer doesn't know ;)) :
* stay with Vegas and keep trying to convince the industry here that it is brilliant.
*start using FCP on the side to have something when Vegas doesn't last and bring in customers just because FCP is a name that brings in customers
*Or Avid for the same reasons as for FCP.
Pinnacle is no option ;)

Let's just hope that starting with V6 all Sony Vaios will have V6 instead of Pinnacle and all HD Pro cams will have V6 on a cd delivered with it etc etc..

MyST wrote on 3/24/2005, 3:56 AM
In big companies, it's common that the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.
Sony is a HUGE company.
I can't believe that the top exects of mediasoftware aren't talking to the hardware divisions, so it's anybody's guess why this is still happening.

Mario
FuTz wrote on 3/24/2005, 3:56 AM
... and have an exportable format edit list so, like the FCPers, we can get out our houses and go to Avid editing room then start working with these guys...
FullCircle wrote on 3/24/2005, 4:00 AM
Right Futz!
If Sony sells Pinnacle, which is bought by Avid... then at least make all these things work together ;)
farss wrote on 3/24/2005, 4:00 AM
Ah, Vegas does have an exportable ( and importable) EDL.
We use it regularly.
Bob.
DSP8000 wrote on 3/24/2005, 5:12 AM
Well, thats something new.
As for pinnacle Liquid, I think is very good piece of software, to a certain point, however curently better than Vegas 5.
BrianStanding wrote on 3/24/2005, 7:43 AM
Meanwhile, there was a very slick flyer inserted into this month's issue of "The Independent," for Sony's Z1 HDV camera. A page for "accessories" features ... Vegas and DVDA! At least someone's with the program. Come to think of it, I recall a press release that said marketing for Sony Media Software was given to Sony's Professional / Broadcast division. Makes you wonder how they're marketing the Movie Studio software....

I've also never understood why Sony doesn't replace their wretched DVGATE with Vegas Movie Studio on their VAIO computers.

Maybe Sony's new CEO will straighten this out.
Erk wrote on 3/24/2005, 7:50 AM
"I've also never understood why Sony doesn't replace their wretched DVGATE with Vegas Movie Studio on their VAIO computers. "

So, how many software video editors does Sony own now?

Vegas and its consumer versions.
XPress or whatever its called.
DVgate -? which I've never heard of.....
filmy wrote on 3/24/2005, 8:07 AM
>>>They've started to push the Sony Oxford Plugins, best noise reduction tools on the planet (and reading what they can do if it's only half true they're right) but do they work with Vegas, nah.<<<

Yeah I got the newest Full Compass catalog and they have them listed. Sony sort of going the Waves route maybe? However these can't be the same plug-ins that come with Vegas. (Vegas 6? With price boost?) Example the Restoration bundle has 3 plug-ins - DeClick, DeNoise and DeBuzz - is $1195.00 list and say they are available for Pro-Tools. No mention of anything else.

Stryign off topic here a bit but they also have a few Canon DV cams listed under the "new" heading and it got me curious - may be old news as I don't keep up with Canon much - but they are 16:9 cameras?? I have to look into them just for the heck of it. A sub $500 16:9 cam huh...
filmy wrote on 3/24/2005, 8:09 AM
>>> Ah, Vegas does have an exportable ( and importable) EDL. <<<

Um..you are being irionic right Bob? Or are you just talkinbg about native Vegas TXT.EDL export and import?
farss wrote on 3/24/2005, 8:15 AM
Yes,
and that's all an EDL is, EDLs do not define FXs or transitions as far as I know.
Vegas does have XML import/export.
Bob.
busterkeaton wrote on 3/24/2005, 9:19 AM
I'm assuming that these other editors are the results of long-standing contracts. Sony is so big that Sony Austrailia probably signs different contracts than Sony UK and Sony America.

MUTTLEY wrote on 3/24/2005, 10:32 AM
Ya know, I don't care the reasons, its just bad business. Not promoting your own software is just stupid. Not only is it lost sales, it sends the wrong message to potential users and a mixed message to your current client base.

- Ray

www.undergroundplanet.com
BrianStanding wrote on 3/24/2005, 10:39 AM
Amen, Muttley.
Yoyodyne wrote on 3/24/2005, 10:50 AM
Not to mention directing them to a dead end product that is owned by a big competitor (in the NLE space anyway). No wonder they got a new head guy...
FuTz wrote on 3/24/2005, 10:52 AM
You're right farss... I just did a search and found out that there's a script that will export both cuts and dissolves (that includes crossfades?) to Avid (EDL and XML) and Sony XPRI (just XML) suites.
You would have to re-capture your footage into these systems though, since they don't seem to run the same timecode protocols as Vegas, right?
Jay Gladwell wrote on 3/24/2005, 11:06 AM

Ray, I've been racking my brain all day trying to come up with a way to say what you said. Well done!

Feels something akin to a slap in the face, doesn' it? I can only image how the guys and gals in Madison feel.


busterkeaton wrote on 3/24/2005, 11:12 AM
It's probably one of the reasons that Sony just got a new ceo.
BarryGreen wrote on 3/24/2005, 11:26 AM
>>That one caught my eye too, what the heck is PsF? Could it be Progressive SIngle Frame?<<

PsF is Sony's Progressive-Segmented Frame recording system. It's how they record 24P on the CineAlta. For all intents and purposes, it's 24P. PsF just refers to how they record it on the tape, but the image it's recording is a pure raw progressive image.
Kanst wrote on 3/24/2005, 12:01 PM
It's interesting, what will Sony recommend instead Liquid, if AVID (it now bye Pinnacle) will stop Liquid programline support?
filmy wrote on 3/24/2005, 12:26 PM
>>>Yes<<<

is that a "yes" to being ironic or "yes" to meaning you only use the Vegas TXT EDL?

>>>and that's all an EDL is, EDLs do not define FXs or transitions as far as I know.<<<

Sort of kind of. Back in the offline days an EDL mainly defined in and out points on both source and record sides. But for dissolves and the like you went into B and C rolls and EDL's would also define these for use on a system that had multi deck capability. Most EDL's could handle basic things like fade in and fade out however. For dissolves you had to go into a B roll at the least.

Now enter this discussion - The Vegas TXT EDL has Vegas info in it - more than your "standard" EDL (ie - CMX EDL) - and it is easy to bring this into Vegas and have it rebuild a project. However the CMX export script tosses out much of the info, including things like file locations, reel numbers and file extensions. This makes re-import, even into Vegas, useless. On the one hand you can't fault Vegas because this is done via a script on export so someone needs to come up with a better CMX script...or just Sony can add the funtionality built in. The import function is in Vegas but it is hidden and for good reason. Click on "import" and clik on an EDL you will see Vegas will "read" the file type and "tell you" it is a CMX EDL. But try to import it and and it seems to work, but really does nothing. ..at least nothing that resemble a usable project. And to be fair this goes for any EDL I have ever tried to import - Vegas just does not, nor was it built to, handle real EDL's.

So what I am saying is that anyone talking about how Vegas can export and import EDL's, in any way other than ironic, is very misleading. I have said this before because it used to be part of the Vegas Video marketin, now it is just a little mention:
==========
Import/Export/Hardware Features
[SNIP]
EDL export
=======
FWIW Vegas TXT.EDL is *not* what most people would consider an EDL. CMX support is very very limited and was even disccused by SoFo/Sony as a huge "might work if..." thing here on this forum. So the fact they still even include a mention is a bit off, IMO.

Just to example here -

"standard" EDL's all have the same basic format -

Cut number / Reel number / format type of cut (Video or Audio)/ Type of cut (fade, straight, etc) / Source in point / Source out point / Record in point / Record out point.

So a basic usable EDL might look something like this:

001 001 B C 00:00:26:04 00:01:11:09 00:00:00:00 00:00:45:03
002 010 B C 00:05:08:18 00:05:43:00 00:00:45:03 00:01:19:17
003 003 B C 00:15:39:21 00:15:55:04 00:01:19:17 00:01:35:00
004 001 B C 00:19:09:16 00:19:22:13 00:01:35:00 00:01:47:27


A more complex one might look like this:

001 001 VA C 00:00:10:00 00:00:16:00 00:00:00:00 00:00:06:00
002 001 VA C 00:00:16:00 00:00:16:00 00:00:06:00 00:00:06:00
003 001 VA D 25 00:00:35:00 00:00:37:00 00:00:06:00 00:00:08:00
004 001 V FO 00:00:48:00 00:00:50:00 00:00:08:00 00:00:10:00
005 001 A C 00:00:17:00 00:00:19:00 00:00:08:00 00:00:10:00


Now enter in most modern NLE's and you also call the material on disk - so cut 1 might look like:

001 001 B C 00:00:26:04 00:01:11:09 00:00:00:00 00:00:45:03
* FROM CLIP NAME: K:\Project\Scene 5\scene 5 master.avi


But the Vegas 5 built in TXT EDL format is very different - format is:
ID / Track / StartTime / Length / PlayRate / Locked / Normalized / StretchMethod / Looped / OnRuler / MediaType / FileName / Stream / StreamStart / StreamLength / FadeTimeIn / FadeTimeOut / SustainGain / CurveIn / GainIn / CurveOut / GainOut / Layer / Color / CurveInR / CurveOutR / PlayPitch / LockPitch

Wow - so much info. One would think this is great but reality is that for cross project / cross NLE use it means nothing. The "EDL" is not readable outside of Vegas. What's more if you export this via the CMX export script it drops a lot of info. The script in vegas drops the file extension, the reel number, source TC info and breaks down each cut as audio and video - which is ok but in a tape world it means that one pass would be V insert an done pass would be audio insert - even if audio and video are together.

Sorry Bob - Vegas and EDL is somewhat of an issue with me. :)
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 3/24/2005, 1:05 PM
IMHO (I'm going to college for business so I have a little room to talk here, I think) It sounds just plain STUPID. SSTTUUUUUUUUPPPIIIIIDDDDDD! Vegas is a potential mega money maker for Sony - as well as moviestudio! I can hardly believe that they are doing themselves ANY favors by putting competing products in bundles with their computers.

However, it is possible that they may be under some kind of contract with them for a certian period of time - and that time wouldn't have ended yet (as I think that Vegas only became sony in the last year or so). Never the less, it's still STUPID! plain and simple. It makes me upset, because a video contractor looses face if he uses "sub par" equipment in the eyes of the rest of the world. Sony sure isn't doing me any favors with all that.

Dave
B.Verlik wrote on 3/24/2005, 2:13 PM
Well, this thread has been here for almost 12 hours and like usual, Sony hasn't jumped in to answer a single thing. Just like every e-mail I've ever sent to them. (Well, a computer will answer that it received it and that an answer will be available within a week or two. Ah, Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaa.)
p@mast3rs wrote on 3/24/2005, 2:18 PM
Without reading through the entire thread, is this a joke? Or is it possible that Sony was attempting to buy Pinnacle and Avid beat them to the punch? I seriously cannot see why Sony would EVER recommend a competitors NLE much less a competitor's whose tech support is one of the absolute worst in the world.