Sony Full HD 3D Rendering - Is it possible?

MattAdamson wrote on 1/5/2012, 3:47 PM
I can't seem to find a way to render files in Vegas 10e which support the same format as the source footage i.e. Full HD 3d MVC files which the TD10 produces.

Has anyone else managed to do this successfully? Which options did you select? Did you use any other third party tools? There is lots of information on the internet above the new features added to 10d to make this possible however I can't see how.

I'd realy appreciate any help.

Comments

cybercom wrote on 1/5/2012, 11:15 PM
Are the TD10 files dual-stream *.avi files or are they actually multiple files like *.avc, *.avc.sfl, *.avc.sfvx & *.mvc?

From my experience, dual-stream avi files appear to be a one-way street for capture only. Projectors and TV's want side-by-side (1920x1080, 1280x720) or side-by-side anamorphic (1440x1080).

I believe that only lenticular camera screens (so far) can play back mvc avi files. I'm guessing that soon there will be a tablet that does the same.

Was there any editing software that came with the camera?

HTH,

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MattAdamson wrote on 1/6/2012, 1:32 PM
Thanks HTH,

Actually the camera produces an MTS file which contains both streams ( left & right ) in the same single file.

There must be a way to render the same quality files. I'm hoping someone has the camera and has already achieved this.
Wolfgang S. wrote on 1/6/2012, 1:52 PM
There is NO way to render mvc-files in 1080 50i/60i of your JVC TD1 to 1080 50i/60i. The reason for that is that the actual 3d blu ray specification foresees only 1080 24p, 720 50p and 720 60p - and nothing more.

So you have two possiblities:
- either your render your 3D footage for 3D blu ray with the Sony AVC/MVC encoder to 720 60p (if you come from 1080 60i). The loss in quality is minor, given the fact that you start with interlaced footage - what has a reduced resolution du to interline flicker anyway
- or you render to sbs full with the Mainconcept AVC encoder, but that is not usefull for 3D blu ray.

For PAL uses, there is a third possibility - to stretch the timeline in a way that you can render to 1080 24p without significant losses.

For NTSC users you can try to render to 1080 24p directly, some users are satisfied with that - but only with Vegas 11. For Vegas 10 the quality drop in the direct conversion 1080 60i to 1080 24p is significant.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

MattAdamson wrote on 1/6/2012, 3:54 PM
Thanks Wolfgang

This is the Sony hdr-td10 camera not the JVC model. I believe the JVC camera has a slightly different MVC format although I'm not sure. I recall somewhere reading that it was hard to use JVC files however Sony are fine.

I'm not actually overly concerned about creating a 3d blu ray to view the content. I simply want to create a single file I can play on my pc / play station as a normal data disc or simply streamed through my network e.g. I use Twonky Media on my QNAP NAS drive.

Please clarify a few points

"render to sbs full" - What is sbs here?
"stretch the timeline" - What do you mean stretch? I'm using PAL

Thanks
Wolfgang S. wrote on 1/7/2012, 5:07 AM
You are right - the JVC has a different mvc format then the TD10, but both is 1080 50i for PAL.

sbs means side-by-side

Stretch the timeline - well, with 50i you have 25 frames per second. But for a 3D Blu Ray with 1080 24p you need 23.976 fps. Means, for a 50i to 23.976 progressive you have to
a) deinterlace the footage
b) slow down the timeline in the exact ratio 23.976:25
c) avoid that the frames are calculated new.
d) pitch shift the audio part

You can render your project first to 1080 50p; import that again in the timeline; calculate the new number of frames that you need and stretch the timeline with the mouse to the new number of frames (mouse and hold STRG or CTRL) - and disable quantize to frame before you do so. Disabel the recalculation of the event (disable resample).

There is an exact publication about that, but it is in German and it is not free of charge - was published in Videoaktiv digital.

http://www.videoaktiv.de/201111046569/Artikel/CAMCORDER/Schau-mir-in-die-Augen.html

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

MattAdamson wrote on 1/7/2012, 9:51 AM
Thanks Wolfgang

This sounds extremely convoluted it's a shame there is no tool that does this for you. I don't really understand how to implement all of those steps in Vegas i.e. b - d. I presume you can do a by simply rendering to 25p 1920 format although really not sure.

I don't mind paying for an article or pdf in German and then using google translate however I can't even understand enough German to make the purchase :)

I'm not sure if you can share the article or details to me privately as I'm more than happy to pay you through pay pal. Thanks
Jay Gladwell wrote on 1/7/2012, 10:24 AM

Matt, have you gone over the material in Chapter 7, page 143, of the Vegas Pro 10 User Manual? That might have the answer you're looking for.

MattAdamson wrote on 1/7/2012, 11:21 AM
Thanks Jay, yes I've also gone through the 3d editing white paper and spoken to Sony support who weren't so helpful.
Wolfgang S. wrote on 1/7/2012, 3:48 PM
Matt,

unfortunately I cannot sell you an article, that I have sold and written for a magazine. That is a question of copyright really.

The conversion from 50i to 24p is a little bit tricky - but can be done. But to my opinion, you can render to 720 50p in a direct way too - that gives good results if you start with 1080 50i footage of your TD10. Is is one of the wrong beliefs that 720 50p is worser then 1080 50i - in the end of the day those two formats are very similar, especially if movement takes place.

But for sure you can ask additional questions.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

MattAdamson wrote on 1/15/2012, 2:16 PM
Thanks Wolfgang

However I'm having issues using the german site to purchase your article I don't mind going through the site. I'll try and contact the site directly tomorrow to see if they can help to purchase this. Are you saying the article tells you how to genated the double Full HD 3d files in Vegas in detail?

You mentioned rendering to 720 50p. If I do this will the file still be in a 3d format? Which file type should I specify in Vegas and any other settings?
Wolfgang S. wrote on 1/15/2012, 5:14 PM
You can prepare a 3D BD based on 720 50p, and that will be in 3D for sure.

Settings - in Vegas Pro, use the Sony AVC/MVC encoder with template "MVC 1280x760 50p-25 Mbps video stream" nennt. In VMS you have to generate such a template by yourself:

A. Video
- Video format: MVC
- Frame Size: High Definition (1280x720)
- Profile: High
- Entropy Coding: CABAC
- Frame rate: 50 (double PAL)
- disable bei allow source to adjust frame rate
- Field Order: none (progressive scan)
- pixel Aspect Ratio: 1,000
- bit rate: 25.000.000
- Encode mode: automatic

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

MattAdamson wrote on 1/18/2012, 3:31 AM
Thanks Wolfgang

I tried to render using a template with the settings you suggested. I selected the Sony AVC / MVC encoder. The video format only provides an AVC / Memory stick option in the drop down. I tried using the file type MP4 which then caused a fatal error in Vegas. Then tried M2TS which seems to render successfully, however playing back on the PS3 it didn't seem to recognise as a 3D video file even when I forced the television to use the 3D mode.
MattAdamson wrote on 1/28/2012, 3:13 PM
Does anyone have this camera at all who can help? I thought this was the most popular 3D camcorder so am suprised by the lack of other forum posts from users who have similar issues.

Hi Wolfgang, I tried to conntact the web site you mentiond for your article however I received no response. I couldn;t find any telephone contact number, do you have this please? I realy don't mind paying for the article and would be more than happy paying anyone on this forum if they could help me render full hd 3d :)

cybercom wrote on 1/28/2012, 9:39 PM
@Matt:

What EXACTLY are you trying to accomplish? Why do you need this output format? What are you going to use to play it back? What are you going to use to display it?

Confused...

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Wolfgang S. wrote on 1/29/2012, 3:00 AM
I am not sure if your playstation is able to playback such a 3D BD-R?? Maybe that is another issue that you have.

For the paper: in the meantime, that is not any more the actual magazine - what means that you are able to order the paper standalone too, for Euro 1,49. You can use paypal for that.

Be aware that this may make sence for a PAL version with 1080 50i only (so not for NTSC with 1080 60i).

If you need some assistance here, we could do that via email: videotreffpunkt AT aon.at
(but I have not a lot of time unfortunately, and are not at home during the week at the moment).

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems

nsbma wrote on 1/31/2012, 6:56 PM
Hi Matt,
I have this camera – Sony HDR-TD10, NTSC version. I haven’t significant issues with Vegas Pro 8,9,10,11 because I use them on more or less dedicated computers. Of course there are some annoying “rules” you need to follow – for instance I need to reboot computer before any big rendering – after that Vegas works fine for 24 hours rendering 100 minutes video in 32 bit pixel mode in two pass. I mostly use only Levels, Sharpen and Color Balance, no complicated transitions.
Everything became different when I entered 3D world. The only one way I use to created 3D blu-rays is use Vegas “Burn to Disk” option. I use Sony MVC template to render at 25 Megabit bit rate. I don’t have complete picture of 3D rendering stability yet, but here are my observations:
1) 64 bit Vegas is more stable that 32 bit Vegas.
2) 12G RAM is much better than 6G RAM.
3) It seams to me I started to get more problems when I switched from ordinary to more fast (XMP) memory profile in Bios.
4) The more parallax adjustment applied in Stereoscopic 3D adjustment the more probability for rendering crash. Some video which camera took with huge parallax need adjustment, but I was not able to render adjusted video.
5) Combination of video stabilization and 3D adjustment is a favorite combination for crashes.
6) It is much hard to render 32 bit pixel 3D video than 8 bit.

My best result in rendering HDR-TD10 video currently is successful rendering of 45 minutes video in 8 bit pixel mode.

To illustrate how tricky 3D workflow is I will tell how I converted 70 minutes video from 2D to 3D.
1) I created left and right view files using DVDFab from 13G MPEG2 source - each file was about 13G.
2) I combine two files into stereoscopic subclip using Vegas 10e – Vegas 11 didn’t do it, Vegas 10e done it only on ordinary hard drive – could not do it on SSD.
3) I copied project to SSD.
4) Vegas 10e created the project, but can’t render it.
5) Vegas 11 successfully rendered the project to 70 minutes 3D blu-ray.

I hope, this information will be helpful for you. Sorry for my English.
nsbma wrote on 1/31/2012, 7:05 PM
Addition to previous post: The only one adjustment I used in rendering converted video was Stereoscopic 3D adjustment which I applied to my single 70 minutes event.

One more observation - Vegas can crash during 3D rendering when you switch KVM switch to the computer, which currently renders 3D video.
MattAdamson wrote on 2/4/2012, 6:43 AM
Thanks nsbma

Whilst your reply is very comprehensive I don't understand the specific settings you used? You talk about separate files however why is this required? The Sony camera generates a single file with two streams so can't we render the same format?

However I just did a very simple test and I think the issue is even more fundamental than rendering. I copied the same files produced from the Sony camera and copied directly onto a CD as a data disc. Neither my dediced blu ray 3d player or PS3 would play them as 3d files. However when the very same files are output from the Sony 3d camera using the 3d mode they output through the hdmi cable as 3d. Both the 3d blu ray player and PS3 have no issues handling 3d blu rays.

The camera must be doing something to the signal as it's output to the tv. i.e. we have a 2d / 3d toggle switch on the camera which changes the output however the source file is always the same file you recorded.

I bought this camera as I thought it was the one that was possible to easily edit in Vegas unlike the JVC camera. I really don't mind paying for any add ons / plug ins that would help I just want to edit :).
cybercom wrote on 2/4/2012, 9:57 AM
"The camera must be doing something to the signal..."

Which is exactly why I was asking my previous questions. The camera uses hardware/electronics to create the proper format for a 3D tv when it outputs to the HDMI port.

You can "...just...edit..." your camera files in Vegas. However you have to use a different format than a dual-stream *.avi file when you render if you want your edit to playback elsewhere.

HTH,

<*)###><
nsbma wrote on 2/4/2012, 10:31 AM
Yes, Sony makes “all inclusive” files with 2 video and one audio (5.1) streams. I mentioned a project with two separated view files only to show how tricky 3D work in Vegas is.
I have 2 devices on which I can watch 3D video – 24 inch 3D monitor and 55 inch 3D TV. Though 3D image on computer monitor looks cool - in my experience the more inches for 3D – the better. So I haven’t big interest in creating some files I can play in 3D on computer. The only thing I do with 3D is making 3D blu-rays using Vegas Burn to Disk option. I create iso files which I can burn on DVD media (if the file is small) or on blu-ray media. My Sony bdp-770 player plays both disk formats well. And I don’t care much what is inside the iso file.
Blu-ray disk created by this option is kind of auto-play – you insert it into player and it starts to play – no menu, no navigation. It is good for me now. I don’t like sharpness of the camera video – editing helps me to fix it – I use sharpness of 0.5 Also editing can improve brightness and contrast, parallax errors – so editing of Sony files make sense.
Matt – was you able to create 3D blu-ray disk playable on your devices using Burn to disk option - at least without any editing of source?
MattAdamson wrote on 2/4/2012, 12:45 PM
Thanks nsbma

So it seems you have only got the video files playing back by using the burn blu ray disc option. I couldn't get that to work too. I tried both the Sony AVC and MPEG templates using 1920 * 1080 * 50i which I thought was the same as the source full hd 3d footage.

Also what stereoscopic setting do you specify in the project properties for your full hd 3d files from the Sony camera? I can't find one appropriate for our camera
MattAdamson wrote on 2/4/2012, 12:47 PM
Thanks Cybercom,

So in relation to

"However you have to use a different format than a dual-stream *.avi file when you render if you want your edit to playback elsewhere. "

Which specific format could I choose in Vegas? I've tried various templates and resolutions with no success
nsbma wrote on 2/4/2012, 5:53 PM
3D blu-ray disk specification doesn't support 1080 60i or 1080 50i - only 1080 24p. Which is bad – transformation from 60i to 24 leads to some motion artifacts. If I will be able to create somehow dual video stream file with 60i frame rate – I will probably be able to play it on my 3D computer monitor. Unfortunately my 3D Sony TV can’t be 120 HZ computer 3D monitor - so I will have a choice between 1080 60i on 24 inch display or 1080 24p after conversion in Sony Vegas on 55 inch TV – I prefer the second choice, so I didn’t try to render camcorder video to computer playable formats.
For creating 3D blu-ray disks I use project setting as following: Template - 1080 60i; Stereoscopic 3D mode - anaglyph red/cyan(I don’t use 3D monitor for editing 3D); Pixel format - 32 bit full range; Full resolution rendering quality – Best; Deinterlace method – Interpolate fields. Using this setting I edit my video. After it I make blu-ray 3D disk using Video format Sony AVC/MVC and video template MVC 1920x1080 24p. I like edited result more than if I play files directly from camera on my TV over HDMI connection.
Wolfgang S. wrote on 2/5/2012, 5:34 AM
nsbma, you are wrong here. The 3D Blu Ray specification (in more detail for BD-ROMs) allows 3 formats for a 3D BD:
- 720 50p
- 720 60p
- 1080 24p

I also agree that creating a 3D BD from the timeline is the only choice. So if somebody like Matt comes from a 1080 50i TD10, the easiest way is to render with the Sony AVC/MVC encoder to 720 50p, to avoid the motion artifacts that you mention.

For your 1080 60i footage, I would avoid to render to 1080 24p, even if Vegas 11 has become here much better compared with Vegas 10 - in terms of less render artifacts. But you can avoid that render artifacts at all if you render to 720 60p. If you say that this drops resolution - true, but not to such a huge extend as one may expect, since the TD10 comes with interlaced footage anyway, what reduces resolution by interline flicker anyway. So typically there is no huge quality drop if you render from 1080 60i to 720 60p. Deinterlace methode interpolate field is the right methode, since it maintaince a better sharpness compared to blend filed.

I agree with you that you have to set the project to 3D - regardless, if you take anaglyphic or sbs - but it must be a 3D project. For the other settings, typically one will choose the settings that they suite best to his footage. For my PAL TD10 I use 1080 50i settings, for my Panasonic Z10000 I use the 1080 24p settings (since I use that camcorder only for 1080 24p, what is the best choise in 3D really).

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * RTX 3080 Ti (12 GB)* Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Resolve Studio 18 * Edius X* Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED * internal HDR preview * i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE * 32 GB Ram) * Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB * internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor * Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG-K 1600 nits, Atomos Sumo

Others: Edius NX (Canopus NX)-card in an old XP-System. Edius 4.6 and other systems