i'll not only second, but third, fourth, fifth, ad infintum BATCH CAPTURE.

b3t, which program does batch capture? it'd be worth my while buying it for that alone and then editing in vegas!!!

leslie

"b3t, which program does batch capture? it'd be worth my while buying it for that alone and then editing in vegas!!!"

Well, it is a competitor program and i did get a pile of mouth from the administrator for mentioning it in the past.... so without straying TOO far off the topic at hand..... the program talked about is Avid Liquid.... and you CAN'T import its captures into Vegas.

Two of the reasons this program can do frame accurate batch capture is that
A: It captures as M2V/WAV
B: It doesn't actually split the file. Instead it captures the tape and writes a smaller file that contains the split information (much like the 'peaks' file that is written for vegas to display the audio peaks). Liquid then uses the 'split info file' to display the proper scenes on the time line.

Sooooo..... you can see why these captures are sort of.... non transferable.

I will add here is that the above mentioned program does true NON DESTRUCTIVE EDITING in the way that it captures, which is the way that an NLE is supposed to work.

This is one of the reasons I want a scene detect system that can detect AFTER the capture. As with HDVsplit, you can capture the tape in its entirety thereby creating a non destructed, exact duplicate of the tape to the hard drive. The scene detect is then used in conjunction with the duplicated file to create sub files (or scenes) in a separate folder while leaving the original capture intact. This is what non destructive editing (or Non Linear Editors) are supposed to be all about. Vegas does a destructive capture with no options otherwise (unless of course you want to scene detect manually on the time line.... which is a lot of work!).

It's also my opinion that capturing and scene detecting at the same time causes problems with the way that the individual scenes are written to the HDD ( I think a small part of the HDV problems we're having with Vegas is caused by inaccurate or erred scene split writes)

You have just described what to me is one of the dumbest things missing from Vegas and probably many other NLEs.

Old School Way: Log and Capture. Lots of tape shuffling, TC errors can equal disaster.

Bob's NewWave: Capture it all and create a file(s) that define in/out points in the file to become clips. Proceed to put clips in bins, racks whatever.

As it stands today we're stuck in pergatory between those two worlds. Vegas doesn't get TC, everything is based on time into file. Great, sounds very advanced but we gain nothing from that if we can't split the file into virtual clips.

And while I'm having a rant, can we do something about fast shuttle with preview in Vegas. I can shuttle a DB tape in an el cheapo J30 at around 50x and still get a useable preview. Whay can't I do that from a DV file on a HDD. Vegas spent all that time building thumbnails, how about it used them for something other than crashing?

Bob.

"You have just described what to me is one of the dumbest things missing from Vegas and probably many other NLEs.

NEVER had TC errors in the other program... not sure where you're getting this from.

More time shuffling tape = less time in the trimmer. Spend your time here or there.... but you're going to spend your time somewhere.

Logging works independently from the actual scenes. In other words it allows you to split clips ANYWHERE and not just on a scene. It also allows you to TIME split. I can split clips according to clock time instead of time code time

And if done properly, it's all bang on, frame accurate.

It's all added flexibility and I'm not sure you can ever call that "one of the dumbest things...."

"NEVER had TC errors in the other program... not sure where you're getting this from."

You've never heard of people restriping tapes?
Get messed up TC on tapes and log and capture might not work.

"Logging works independently from the actual scenes. In other words it allows you to split clips ANYWHERE and not just on a scene. It also allows you to TIME split. I can split clips according to clock time instead of time code time"

Sort of my point. If you can do it with tape why can't you do it AFTER you've captured the tape.

Maybe you're just misunderstanding my post or maybe I wrote it wrong. Nothing dumb about the idea of log and capture, just that it can be problematic. What I see as missing is no way to do the same process by capturing the whole tape or loading a file and then being able to do the same process. I believe this is what you'd said that 'other' NLE could do.

Bob.

"Get messed up TC on tapes and log and capture might not work."3
That's a bit of a stretch there Bob... but yeah... it is possible.... I guess.


"Nothing dumb about the idea of log and capture, just that it can be problematic."
If done correctly, it's not problematic. Talk to the people (myself included) runnuing that "other" program.... NEVER had a problem.... bang on, frame accurate every time.

Anyway... this is neither here nor there. The log/batch capture although adds some tremendous flexibility...I can live without it. It's the scene detect AFTER capture that I can not. This really is a must. HDVsplit has it.... Neo has it.... and most others do too.

Capture has always been a very weak part of Vegas. Even to this day, the DV capture utility stinks, and many of us use Scenalyzer instead.

However, I totally agree with blink that the HDV capture is almost non-functional. More important, based on recent posts in the thread about the beta DLL which is designed to fix the black/red frame problems, there are so many problems with the way in which HDV video is captured that even though that DLL looks like it is fixing some of the problems, it is also making it increasingly obvious that some of the problems are also due to bad captures.

HDVSplit is a nice enough hack, but it is definitely just that, and is certainly not a finished, professional, bulletproof product. It is certainly not a complete answer to the problem.

So, here's the point: Vegas needs to be able to capture DV and HDV reliably, with scene detection, and with many of the other features mentioned by others in this thread AND in the HUNDREDS of other threads and posts on this subject that have been posted in this forum over the past eight years. But, despite all these posts, pleas, rants, and requests, the DV capture has not been touched -- even once -- since the earliest days of Vegas. And HDV has received the same level of attention.

How can a feature so fundamental be so neglected???

Unfortunately for vegas, I believe Blink and Johnmeyer summary is on the money.

Capture, capture... reminds me something...

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=254570

:D

PS: don't do much editing these days but if I was, I'd still like to have that counter !

How can a feature so fundamental be so neglected???

Perhaps because the age of tapeless has always "been around the corner."
Now...we're effectively there. We haven't shot tape in over a year. I understand many people still do, but why develop for what is to be ancient history? it works. It's elementary, but it works.

Uh... survivorman? ;)

If it ain't broke yet, people will still use tape. Umatic, betaSP are still around. I suspect that many people will still keep shooting tape-based formats like HDV, betaSP as long as it serves their needs. It will probably stick around as long as it hits some need that tapeless doesn't (e.g. Survivorman).

Of course there are definitely advantages to tapeless. And there are some folks who will still use decades-old tape formats for just a little while longer (though probably not with Vegas).

If I could find a compelling reason to shoot AVCHD that was high enough quality I would probably ditch my HC7's - can anyone point to a camera that shoots AVCHD that has high image quality and still has the same feature specs as my HC7's? I need mic and headphone jacks as well as manual WB, manual exposure and audio level control. small form factor is also a requirement and preferably doesn't shoot some proprietary format that has to go thru some hoop jumping to get it into an NLE.

Am I asking too much?

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com

Yes, after fixing the memory-management issues, improved capture is now top of my wish list. Something like Scenalyzer Live integrated into Vegas Pro that does HDV etc. too would be just perfect.

"but why develop for what is to be ancient history?"

Well.... allow me to use your words in the same post: "....many people still do" use tape.

I haven't shot DV in lord knows how long.... therefore I think they should remove the DV capture utility (Bet ya' 20 I just pissed off a bunch of DV users.... much the same way you just pissed off the HDV community)

I am confused by Spot's post. I don't have the time to research old posts, but I could swear that in almost every post where AVCHD vs. HDV is discussed, Spot has pointed out that HDV quality is still superior, although perhaps by not as much as when AVCHD first came out. More important, I thought he has consistently said that HDV is still far easier to edit. Therefore, I am surprised by both his declaration of HDV, and tape in general, as a dead format, but even more surprised to hear that he hasn't shot any tape in such a long time.

I fully appreciate that he shoot a lot of extreme sports and that perhaps solid state is more rugged (although I don't remember any reports of failures related to tape mechanisms). But I could swear I read all sorts of posts about how AVCHD breaks down under certain editing circumstances whereas HDV holds up.

Based at least partly on what I've read in these forums, I continue to recommend HDV to people who ask me which format to use.

I'm not trying to be a wise-ass, but I am definitely confused.

[Edit] OK, I did ten seconds of research, and I found this post from less than a week ago:

Matching AVCHD with HDV and HD

In that, Spot says: "AVCHD is much harder to do much with than HDV, I'd avoid it."

So, like I said, that's why I am confused.

At this particular moment in time, HDV quality is still superior and its MPEG2 format is easier to edit. Personally, I like MPEG2 a lot, it is a versatile and mature compression technology.

As far as extreme sports are concerned, any quick, small bump will cause the HDV tape transport in my camera to glitch. This is not an issue with solid state capture.

Two reasons why I'm not yet upgrading from V1U to EX1:
- if I lose everything on my computer system, I always have the tape archive. Who can actually afford (time-wise and hard drive expense) to have backups of all footage from a large project?

- if shooting more than a couple hours, how many S&S cards or tapeless cameras can you bring? I've taped a number of 3 hour sessions for my current documentary... I just change to a new tape and keep going.

"Perhaps because the age of tapeless has always "been around the corner."
Now...we're effectively there. We haven't shot tape in over a year. I understand many people still do, but why develop for what is to be ancient history? it works. It's elementary, but it works. "

I hear ya DSE, however for many of us, tape is still the only option.. When working long form multicamera jobs, such as 4 hour stage shows across 6 to 10 cameras, there is no other cost effective choice regarding acquisition or archival media aside from tape...

Im sorry, but despite the fact were moving into tapeless, this is all well and good for most short form or maybe afew shorter multicam jobs, but for big productions like concerts, stage shows, fashion parades, school events etc etc and the like, its just not financialy or logistically feasable conaidering youd need to have a gopher to simply manage the acquisition media.

I hear u and agree, but theres also the flipside as to why tape IMO wont die for a while jsut yet.
It WILL die, but then we will see a deterioration of the kind of services offfered considering the costs involved when it comes to long form acquisition.

One thing i forgot to mention.. many moons agi, i requested an MPG capture option. Now the reason i asked for this is becuase it was available on a consumer program called Pinnacle Studio. For under $200 you could capture as mpg. In fact, now you can capture and burn to disc at the same time... much like a standalone DVD recorder with a 1394 input

I cant fathom as to why Vegas has never had this option of MPG capture, or any other MPG option aside from HDV.

In addition, when editing certain longfom jobs, we use the MainConcept encoder and use IT to capture straight to MPG.
Then by putting it into V8, it allows us to smartrender these cuts only jobs. Saves an entire process of captureing as SD DV, then converting to MPG for DVD. Were talking at least 12hours processing alone

So we capture as MPG SD through MC encoder (which cost us abotu $500 back then), and render out to the same bitrate (we write ti down during the capture).
As its MC, Vegas recognises it and alows the martrender to continue. If we try throw on a Pinnacle MPG, this technique wont work.

The only smartrender possible wthin V8 at this time, is with HDV. It wont even smartrender XDCam (as its variable) and it will have trouble with SD variable where certain cuts could lock up the gop cycle. If you want smartrendering, either be precise with the encoded bitrate or use a fixed bitrate

There are many issues with need adressing. This is only one of them

"Who can actually afford (time-wise and hard drive expense) to have backups of all footage from a large project?"

I can't afford all the time it takes to capture large projects from tape.

And regarding the "hard drive expense"; a 500 gig hard drive can hold about 41 tapes worth of DV or HDV footage and 500 gig hard drives can be had for less than $70. $70 / 41 = $1.71, much cheaper than tape even if you buy the cheap TDK DV tape at Costco for $2.50 each.

I record multi-camera, multi-hour takes to small laptops, no capture after the fact and no missed material when I would otherwise have to stop and change tape. I only use tape when I absolutely have to.

Uh-huh .. .

2 minutes ago I had a clip go AWOL from a veg project captured back in March 08. Located the clip and its tape > Right Click "Recapture" > popped tape into deck - done.

Kinda like tape here . . ?

Grazie

hmmm, I've never had a clip go AWOL. I usually just back up the entire project; .veg files, video, audio, text notes, scans, animations, DVD project files, renders, whatever to a folder on a hard drive and I can be back to any part of the project in the 30 seconds it takes to pop the drive in a dock. I've been doing it this way for the last five years or so. I've got about 60-70 SATA hard drives ranging in size from the early 250GB drives to the current 1TB drives and all cataloged with "WhereIsIt." If it's an incredibly important project, I'll make identical copies on two drives. No telling how much time this has saved.