Suggestion for Wider Adoption of Vegas

Coursedesign wrote on 4/19/2008, 4:30 PM

Avid Media Composer seems to work well on OS X, Premiere Pro ditto, but Encore has several issues that should have been fixed already.

FCP would seem to be one of the central drivers of OSX sales although the largest supplier of Apple software is Microsoft, go figure.

FCP? No way. Even a million licenses doesn't fill more than a small fraction of Apple's computers.

Adobe Creative Suite on the other hand has been a major driver, as has Quark (typesetting/layout). There are very few creative artists using PCs, even today when Windows XP is finally somewhat stable. Many professional printers still refuse to accept Windows-generated files, because of all the trouble.

Microsoft is the largest supplier of Apple software by virtue of having been able to get away with selling $400+ software to nearly everybody who needs to communicate with the office world.

Remember that MS spent many many years practically giving away Office with every PC sold, before they were able to start charging for it.

I suspect once your under OSX you're stuck in Quicktime land. That's not a good thing at all. QT has many limitations and of late quite a few stuff ups as well.

Quicktime is not the equivalent of AVI on the Windows side. It is far far more capable in every area. The differences don't matter so much for amateurs, but they are crucial for many high end professional video creators.

You can see it in for example the specs for my Decklink HD Extreme card:
16 Channels in HD and 2K on Mac OS X™
8 Channels in HD on Windows™ [2K not supported...]

And there are many other differences, ALL in QuickTime's favor AFAIK.

QuickTime was designed from the beginning to be a professional platform, at a time when Microsoft had no direction in video (do they have one today?).

Don't confuse the fact that QT sometimes doesn't work perfectly under Windows. That is purely Microsoft sabotage to prevent QT from taking over the role of their "standards."

Just like in the olden days, when "...the next Windows update isn't ready until Lotus 1-2-3 doesn't run" [because MS was pushing Excel], they are now doing what they can to screw up QT on Windows.

Running Windows on a Mac is mostly for switchers, or those who want to combine their favorite NLE, Vegas, with the benefits of running OS X and its apps as much as possible.

I have had a Mac for two years now (in addition to many PCs), and I have to say it's a relief to not have to be bothered with the %@#& antivirus program updates and nearly-every-day Windows security patch downloads & installs that reduce productivity on my XP machines.

I think Apple's Keynote is quite superior to Powerpoint, Pages is in many (but not all) ways better than MS Word (it even has page layout capability), and Numbers beats Excel for basic and moderate use. These three programs cost $69. Together [iWork '08].

And for database, Apple's FileMaker software is outstanding. Rock solid and reliable. I have sold an admin application for 10 years running, developed using FileMaker (running on Windows and OS X). This app is #1 for sales in its field, one reason being that I have never had a bug caused by database problems. Ever.

I was considering MS Access initally, until I learned from other developers that there were a lot of prayers involved in using it for application support in the field.

OS X software generally works flawlessly on 8-core machines, while Windows apps, well, you know the story, it's a mixed bag, to be maximally polite.

John_Cline wrote on 4/19/2008, 4:36 PM

Here's an interesting article that has nothing to do with Vegas per se, but it is an look into why we are where we are today.

http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/8AA115DC-2398-456E-9319-FE5842A41BD1.html

farss wrote on 4/19/2008, 5:49 PM

Thanks,
that was an interesting read.
It always seems obvious to my why Avid rule the roost. They just do one thing, they understand their clients needs and build products that meet those needs.

We've sold a fair bit of hardware to our national broadcaster to keep their Avid Newscutter systems going. I think most here would have a heart attack when they saw how basic Newscutter was. But that's all that's needed to get the job done and in fact the lack of features is a strong point in its favour.
Bob.

Seth wrote on 4/19/2008, 7:20 PM

I have Vegas 5 running on my Mac right now. It uses open source implementations of Windows API, so it's not being 'emulated', it's actually living and running on my system -right now. I've edited and rendered HD video with it, with multiple tracks of audio and generated media (titles and timecode).

I am not a programmer; I didn't have to do anything special, and I couldn't describe what low-level processes and libraries Vegas is using as it runs on my MacBook pro, but it's running. If I, who know so little, can make it run using free, open source software, then SCS, who makes wonderful code and knows a lot, could enlist the support of companies like CodeWeavers, who specialize in making windows software run on Linux and Mac OS.

It can and it has been done. Google has more than one software title that was originally written for Windows but made to work on Linux using Wine (Picasa, Google Earth). SCS just needs to see the profit in doing it, as was mentioned before.

If you REALLY want to see wider adoption of Vegas, stop making posts about how SCS should do it, and tell your friends who use Mac OS and Linux to try Vegas on your workstation. Get THEM to ask SCS for Mac and Linux support. Create a buzz in your circle of friends.

When FCS2 was announced at NAB last year, all of my friends said 'Wow, that's awesome!' and I almost died laughing at them (right in front of the Apple booth, across from RED, it was probably a little rude of me actually 8-) and said 'Vegas has been able to do [ I listed more than half of FCS2's 'new' features] since version 5!' One of my friends was convinced to try Vegas. My tactic was a little too harsh, but you can get your editor friends interested in Vegas too.

I'll have my Mac OS tutorial up by Monday. Please dig up your copies of Vegas 5 and follow along once it's posted. Please help your friends to do it too. Please take screen-shots. Please send them to SCS directly, and ask for support of Vegas on Linux and Mac OS under Wine.

It works. NOW. Stop talking about it and SHOW Sony Madison that you want them to have a cross-platform presence.

John_Cline wrote on 4/19/2008, 7:37 PM

Give it up! Vegas is a Windows application and it will always be a Windows application. There is nothing special about Macs, they are just computer made by a company whose cult leader used to be a mime in an amusement park. There are diehard Mac fans and they will be running Final Cut, even if it is basically just Premiere in disguise.

But why all of this resistance to Windows? I have twelve computers here. I install Windows, I install the applications and I've never had an issue with any of them. Period.

Seth wrote on 4/19/2008, 7:51 PM

I should mention that the core functions of Sound Forge 7 work flawlessly on Linux under Wine.

The winehq page for Vegas is http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=3467

Seth wrote on 4/19/2008, 8:03 PM

'Give it up! Vegas is a Windows application and it will always be a Windows application.'

Yes, of course. By default, Vegas is already a windows-only application. You are not in a position to say where it will go from here.

'There is nothing special about Macs, they are just computer made by a company whose cult leader used to be a mime in an amusement park.'

Ad Hominem much? This is what we call a logical fallacy, number two in your post.

'There are diehard Mac fans and they will be running Final Cut, even if it is basically just Premiere in disguise.'

John, you don't have to be a diehard Mac fan to prefer Keynote to Powerpoint, or Finder to Windows Explorer, or Spaces to ... wait, Mac OS stole that from Linux, and Windows doesn't even have anything like it.

'But why all of this resistance to Windows?'

You are the only person resisting this open conversation. The better question is What are YOU so afraid of? It is not resistance to Windows, it is a thing we Americans like to call choice. Free as in free speech not free beer.

'I have twelve computers here. I install Windows, I install the applications and I've never had an issue with any of them. Period.'

Unrepresentative sample. Another logical fallacy. I've had some good experiences with Windows, but I've had other moments when I want to poke my eyes out. Neither SCS nor Microsoft make their decisions solely on your or my experience.

I know you've said that for SCS's sake you wish Vegas were widely used, but you've also said that for your own competitive edge you wish you were the only person using it. But Vegas usership is on the up-swing whether you like it or not. These types of conversations are a natural out-growth. Please don't take them personally.

John_Cline wrote on 4/19/2008, 8:48 PM

" should mention that Sound Forge 7 works almost flawlessly on Linux under Wine.

Almost? Oh yeah, I want to use software that almost works. My clients will pay me the big bucks for that!

"But Vegas usership is on the up-swing whether you like it or not."

My tongue was planted firmly in cheek when I said I wanted to be the only one running Vegas.

"Unrepresentative sample."

Hey, I'm batting twelve out of twelve here. It's enough of a representative sample for ME.

"The better question is What are YOU so afraid of?"

I'm not afraid of anything. I have work to do and Windows gets it done. I don't have time to muck around trying to get something to "almost" work. Wow, I can (almost) run Vegas v5 under Wine! That will go great with (almost) running Sound Forge v7. Now, if I can just get Photoshop v6 to (almost) work, I'll be back where I was five years ago.

I have an arsenal of about fifty apps that I use regularly, when I can run all of them better than they run under Windows, then I might be interested. Getting one or two native Windows apps to run under Linux or on a Mac isn't going to cut it, I'd still have to get into Windows to run everything else.

Seth wrote on 4/19/2008, 9:25 PM

John, if you're trying to call me an idiot, I've already called myself one. Your oblique comments don't hurt me as much as they tell me that I haven't been clear.

'Almost? Oh yeah, I want to use software that almost works. My clients will pay me the big bucks for that!'

Guess what? This forum is dedicated to people for whom Vegas Pro 8 almost works. They come here because they either need help or are unsatisfied with Vegas' performance under some conditions.

We all have workflows that cost us money. I still use Mac OS 10.4 because Avid won't run on Leopard. I have a Vista 64 machine with Vegas Pro 8 on it, which is what my paying customers get their projects done on. (Actually, it's what my non-paying customers get their projects done on too 8-) I got Vista 64 because SCS announced a 64 bit version of Vegas, and I wanted to have the kinks ironed out of my Vista-Vegas workstation before that product comes to market.

No one's forcing you to use Linux, or Vista -yet. But Vegas 64 will only be supported on Vista 64, NOT XP64. Some Vegas users cringe at the mention of Vista, and say that they will never use it, but that is currently the only direction that SCS is headed. If you don't like your environment, change it.

'I have an arsenal of about fifty apps that I use regularly, when I can run all of them better than they run under Windows, then I might be interested.'

You've made it abundantly clear that you are not in need of any change. I'm not trying to interest you; I'm trying to stop any Mac OS/Linux FUD from spreading. Please stop making such disparaging posts, and I'll stop refuting them with logical, fact-based posts.

John_Cline wrote on 4/19/2008, 9:28 PM

For the record, seven of the twelve machines here are running Vista64.

Seth wrote on 4/19/2008, 9:31 PM

Great. My main workstation is running Vista64. What's your point? Do all 50 of your apps run on it? Are all 50 of your apps even commercial software, or are they mostly open source apps like VirtualDub?

At the end of the day, I agree with you that Vegas is designed to work under certain circumstances; on Windows. I think the only difference of opinion you and I seem to have is whether or not it is ok to try something new. I have enjoyed Vista so far, when it is behaving at its best. I have also enjoyed Linux and Mac OS, when they are behaving at their best.

rmack350 wrote on 4/19/2008, 10:25 PM

"It seems much more like the ground breaking technologies are developed for Windows first and then if successful, ported to Mac or Linux. "

Gosh, I wish I'd started reading this huge thread before it got so impossibly long.

I don't buy this at all. Most of the security practices now in Vista have long been in Unices like Linux, then in OSX, now in Vista.

Once upon a time window managers in Linux were very creative and many of the nicest features migrated to other OSes.

Truthfully, lots of ideas have passed back and forth between the OSes and applications built for them. It's simply not true that everything starts in any one of them.

Rob Mack

rmack350 wrote on 4/19/2008, 10:36 PM

I remember a person at DEC telling us that they were their own biggest customer. That's kind of what you're suggesting.

I think it'd probably be helpful, especially if 90% of the company employees still don't even know that Vegas exists.

Rob Mack

rmack350 wrote on 4/19/2008, 11:03 PM

Deusx said: "because somebody somewhere overheard grip boy's fluffer used fcp to edit his home movies while on breaks during the filming of some major studio movie"

Worked as a grip/electric for years and never once had a fluffer. Sure wouldn't have gotten any work done if I'd had one, considering fluffers work in porn and are there to make sure the male performers remain "proud".

Truth of the matter is that grips and electricians are very skilled labor, but usually not known as great filmmakers. "Grip boy" is a bit insulting and I think you may be confusing the job position with that of a PA.

But then, many editors don't know production because they've never worked in that phase of a film, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Rob Mack

rmack350 wrote on 4/19/2008, 11:31 PM

Bob said: "Avid has always been dual platform...Well FCP, which was originally developed my Macromedia I don't know. Good grief, it might have started out life as a PC app.
You forgot to mention Media 100."

FCP was initially a joint project of Media100 and Macromedia. Presumably on the Mac since both companies were strongest on Mac at the time.

Once upon a time it seemed that there were just two nonlinear systems, both on the Mac. Those were Avid and Media100. Wintel ports came along later.

Rob Mack

rmack350 wrote on 4/19/2008, 11:43 PM

Quicktime seems to have given OSX user big trouble recently, according to some of the posts in a local FCP listserver is watch on occasion. It's a hiccup, but it's evidently nothing to do with MS sabotaging quicktime.

On the virus thing, yes, Mac users don't worry so much these days but I sure remember all my mac using friends in the late 80s and 90's blaming every single problem they ever had on viruses. I don't think they actually had them, but it was always the excuse.

As far as XP stability goes, I upgraded to it from ME so perhaps it just seemed stable, but I've never had a problem with XP stability.

Rob Mack

deusx wrote on 4/20/2008, 12:58 AM

>>>Truth of the matter is that grips and electricians are very skilled labor, but usually not known as great filmmakers. "Grip boy" is a bit insulting and I think you may be confusing the job position with that of a PA.

But then, many editors don't know production because they've never worked in that phase of a film, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
<<<<<

I'm just using extreme unrealistic ( as in grip boy fluffer ) and nonexistant profession examples to illustrate the point. Since I'm using it to criticize a company whose entite life has been spent just making up claims about their products, it's fitting.

People litteraly claim Lettersf from IwoJIma was edited with FCP, when in fact nothing was edited on it. Some guys somewhere down in the production line used a mac to import some HDV footage, that's all.

>>>>it is a thing we Americans like to call choice. Free as in free speech not free beer. <<<<

That's exactly why I and many other do not use Macs, no choices.
None of the apps I use ( adobe is the only exception ) run on Macs, and hardware wise they have about 3 configurations to choose from vs 3000 on the pc side. And whenever I had to use a Mac ( on site working at some studio ) they were the slowest and by far the crappiest machines I've ever used. This "slower than ant running through a diarrhea" part has been fixed since they switched to Intel chips, but I have no reson to consider them as a serious option.

rmack350 wrote on 4/20/2008, 12:59 AM

Ugh! The problem, I think, is that developers get assigned to certain projects and project managers never put people on the task of fixing things that work marginally. They just won't put resources into vidcap when it kind of barely works. The black frame thing is a different issue. It's long-standing, and I suspect it's related to frame caching, and perhaps memory or memory controllers.

Anyway, I run across similar attitudes and they're frustrating-I don't like it when a developer or manager takes the stance that they've met the letter of their assignment and are therefore done with the job.

Rob

rmack350 wrote on 4/20/2008, 1:19 AM

Okay, so the consensus is that it doesn't make economic sense to port Vegas to Linux od MacOS. Cost exceeds the likely revenue. Of course this is conjecture without an actual study, but it seems like common sense.

Would it make sense as a loss-leader? Assuming there is some cachet to vegas being present on the mac platform...I honestly don't think that's enough to go to the trouble.

FCP, Premiere, and Vegas all generate the bulk of their revenue at the consumer level so that's the area to concentrate on, and there are still plenty of new users who aren't married to any one NLE. I still believe that SCS needs to strip out some of the features from Vegas "Pro" and build a higher end PRO version of Vegas. Seems dumb to have slapped that Pro moniker onto Vegas as it is.

Obviously people here think Vegas ought to be capable of editing big budget features. I don't think that's the income generator, but it does give the NLE some credit and something for average prosumers to aspire to.

Rob Mack

rmack350 wrote on 4/20/2008, 1:22 AM

It was an OT gripe, I admit it.

Rob

Terje wrote on 4/20/2008, 4:35 AM

Don't confuse the fact that QT sometimes doesn't work perfectly under Windows. That is purely Microsoft sabotage ...

I agree with some of what you are saying, but this is pure bullsh*t. Quicktime on Windows is junk because of Apple, not because of Microsoft. If this was a Microsoft created problem QT would have problems only on some (newer) versions of Windows. QT doesn't work at all on any version of Windows. This may be because Apple intentionally cripple QT for Windows (to drive people towards Macs), because they are incompetent Windows developers or because they simply don't care that much about QT on Windows.

OS X software generally works flawlessly on 8-core machines, while Windows apps

Again, I have to call bullsh*t. There is nothing wrong with Windows multiprocessor support, in fact Windows has had this a long time (before OSX) already and it is basically solid in so far as Windows it self is solid. The fact that some apps are badly coded for multiple CPUs is an app problem, not a Windows problem.

Terje wrote on 4/20/2008, 4:47 AM

It uses open source implementations of Windows API, so it's not being 'emulated',

Yes, it is being emulated. Wine is a windows emulator The fact that Vegas runs under emulation is irrelevant, if SCS must port it to Apple they would have to re-write it from scratch, slapping an emulation layer on it wouldn't work. You can make it run but that is irrelevant.

It can and it has been done.

It can be done, but some apps would require a lot more than others. Some apps may even just require a simple re-compile. Vegas would require a significant re-write at the cost of millions in development and support. It would be lunacy for SCS to go for it.

Terje wrote on 4/20/2008, 4:59 AM

Most of the security practices now in Vista have long been in Unices like Linux

No, they have not. Unix default user security is a joke compared to what has been in Windows since day one. That is why you have things like SELinux etc. On the other hand, bad Windows developers, with Microsoft as a prime example, have nullified the security efforts of the OS by virtually mandating all software run by privileged users, but this is not a Windows problem as much as it is a problem with application developers (who have used Microsoft as their example).

rmack350 wrote on 4/20/2008, 9:02 AM

Wine has been one of the handful of acronyms that people never knew what the letters stood for. The most common interpretation was Wine Is Not an Emulator and this has become the accepted meaning. (it's also a common way to name linux applications like "Pine Is Not Elm")

See http://www.winehq.org/site/myths

This is note an endorsement of Vegas on Linux or Mac OSX, just an observation about Wine.

Rob Mack