Super 8 scanned at 4K. Delivery is BD 1080p. Convert to 1080?

jason-duncan wrote on 9/27/2023, 3:16 PM

Hello,

I recently had some Super 8 footage scanned at 4K, 24fps (not 23.976). Some was shot at 18 some 24fps. I realize the footage shot at 18 will have to be slowed by 25%.

Since delivery will be BD, do I have to convert the footage to 1080 23.976 or can I simply open a new project template [HD 1080-24p 1920x1080, 23.976] and edit using the 4K file? (as long as I do not have "Adjust source media to better match project" checked).

Are there any issues with using a file with a frame rate of 24 in a project of 23.976?

Thanks for any help.

Comments

fr0sty wrote on 9/28/2023, 1:28 AM

BD only supports 23.976 IIRC, so you'll want to set your project settings to that, and render at that as well using the magix AVC 1080p blu-ray template.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

john_dennis wrote on 9/28/2023, 2:05 AM

@fr0sty

It's been a long time since I burned a Blu-ray so I don't remember if DVD Architect supports actual 24p, but, according to wikipedia, the Blu-ray spec allows 24p. I'm fairly certain that every Blu-ray I ever burned was 23.976, because the camera I had at the time recorded at that frame rate.

EricLNZ wrote on 9/28/2023, 4:18 AM

My DVDA7 Build 100 supports 1920x1080 24.000p and 23.976p plus the usual 25.000 and 29.976 Interlaced.

andyrpsmith wrote on 9/28/2023, 4:26 AM

Yes all my BD projects using DVDA were 24p. As my footage was filmed in 25p I had to use time-stretch to get smooth playback on moving sections.

Last changed by andyrpsmith on 9/28/2023, 4:29 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

(Intel 3rd gen i5@4.1GHz, 32GB RAM, SSD, 1080Ti GPU, Windows 10) Not now used with Vegas.

13th gen i913900K - water cooled, 96GB RAM, 4TB M2 drive, 4TB games SSD, 2TB video SSD, GPU RTX 4080 Super, Windows 11 pro

jason-duncan wrote on 9/28/2023, 6:16 AM

Hi folks. Thanks for you all of the replies.

My main question is; can I work with the 4k file directly even though I'm downscaling for BD?

I plan on rendering at 23.976, not true 24fps even though both Vegas and DVD-A support 24fps.

I'm guessing there shouldn't be any issues to go from 24 to 23.976 since 23.976 is still progressive and not interlaced.

mark-y wrote on 9/28/2023, 9:35 AM

As far as the "disparity" between 24.000 source and 23.976 output, what you do and in what version of Vegas (you didn't say?) will affect only 1 frame out of 1000 -- it might be dropped, blended, or synthesized depending on your resampling method. The only person likely to notice that is the editor, who would be watching for it about once every 42 seconds, if my math is correct.

(as long as I do not have "Adjust source media to better match project" checked).

That setting applies only to anamorphic source, not yours.

jason-duncan wrote on 9/28/2023, 12:45 PM

@mark-y. I have Vegas Pro 16 (build 424).

Yes! that's the question I didn't know how to ask; (will the one frame in 1000 be blended or dropped).

I'm fine if it gets dropped. Would rather have that then blended. As you might have guessed the footage is not anamorphic.

wjauch wrote on 9/28/2023, 12:45 PM

Hi folks. Thanks for you all of the replies.

My main question is; can I work with the 4k file directly even though I'm downscaling for BD?

I plan on rendering at 23.976, not true 24fps even though both Vegas and DVD-A support 24fps.

I'm guessing there shouldn't be any issues to go from 24 to 23.976 since 23.976 is still progressive and not interlaced.

Yes you can. I have often had 4k and 5k footage on timeline, when it comes to render just select the 1080 that you want.

 

jason-duncan wrote on 9/28/2023, 12:51 PM

@wjauch. Is your footage scanned at 24 or 23.976? if it was scanned at 24, and your delivery is 23.976, have you seen any dropped frames or blending issues?

mark-y wrote on 9/28/2023, 1:09 PM

In Vegas Pro 16, with Project Resampling "OFF," it will probably drop each 1001st frame. With Resampling "ON" or "AUTO" I think it will blend the 1000th and 1001st frames. I don't think VP16 has an optical flow resampling option. I think I have that right, but it's been an awfully long time. Experiment.

fr0sty wrote on 9/28/2023, 3:18 PM

Optical flow wasn't introduced until VEGAS 19, so it's either blend, or drop (or upgrade).

VEGAS will downconvert the 4K footage for you just fine, when you go to render it to a 1080p Blu-Ray template using the Magix AVC codec. You don't need to do anything to the footage beforehand.

Last changed by fr0sty on 9/28/2023, 3:18 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

Greg-Kintz wrote on 9/28/2023, 3:26 PM

BD specs allow for 23.976 and 24.000 fps. For what it's worth most of the major studios in the US release bluray in 23.976 while some overseas distributors often do 24.000.

As mentioned by someone else, were the 18fps material delivered to you as 18fps, or did they speed it up? If it was sent to you as an image sequence then the frame rate is agnostic, in that you need to assign the desired framerate.

Getting 18fps into 24fps (or 23.976) has always been always been a toughie. One option is to speed it up to avoid blurred frames, but that leads to the slightly sped up look we all used to see in older transfers of silent movies. The other option is simply drop the 18fps video into a 23.976 project timeline, but occasional blurred frames will occur. The 3rd latest option is advanced frame interpolation, where you use AI or other software that attempts to recreate needed frames and also attempts to avoid blurred frames.

 

mark-y wrote on 9/28/2023, 4:55 PM

Optical flow wasn't introduced until VEGAS 19, so it's either blend, or drop (or upgrade).

VEGAS will downconvert the 4K footage for you just fine, when you go to render it to a 1080p Blu-Ray template using the Magix AVC codec. You don't need to do anything to the footage beforehand.

+1

fr0sty wrote on 9/28/2023, 6:23 PM
Getting 18fps into 24fps (or 23.976) has always been always been a toughie. One option is to speed it up to avoid blurred frames, but that leads to the slightly sped up look we all used to see in older transfers of silent movies. The other option is simply drop the 18fps video into a 23.976 project timeline, but occasional blurred frames will occur. The 3rd latest option is advanced frame interpolation, where you use AI or other software that attempts to recreate needed frames and also attempts to avoid blurred frames.

 

Using VEGAS' optical flow frame resampling mode may help here.

Systems:

Desktop

AMD Ryzen 7 1800x 8 core 16 thread at stock speed

64GB 3000mhz DDR4

Geforce RTX 3090

Windows 10

Laptop:

ASUS Zenbook Pro Duo 32GB (9980HK CPU, RTX 2060 GPU, dual 4K touch screens, main one OLED HDR)

wjauch wrote on 9/28/2023, 8:41 PM

@wjauch. Is your footage scanned at 24 or 23.976? if it was scanned at 24, and your delivery is 23.976, have you seen any dropped frames or blending issues?

It's not scanned footage, was shot at 23.976 fps.

RogerS wrote on 9/29/2023, 6:49 AM

He tagged the wrong person, this thread is about film.

jason-duncan wrote on 9/29/2023, 5:17 PM

BD specs allow for 23.976 and 24.000 fps. For what it's worth most of the major studios in the US release bluray in 23.976 while some overseas distributors often do 24.000.

As mentioned by someone else, were the 18fps material delivered to you as 18fps, or did they speed it up? If it was sent to you as an image sequence then the frame rate is agnostic, in that you need to assign the desired framerate.

Getting 18fps into 24fps (or 23.976) has always been always been a toughie. One option is to speed it up to avoid blurred frames, but that leads to the slightly sped up look we all used to see in older transfers of silent movies. The other option is simply drop the 18fps video into a 23.976 project timeline, but occasional blurred frames will occur. The 3rd latest option is advanced frame interpolation, where you use AI or other software that attempts to recreate needed frames and also attempts to avoid blurred frames.

 

All footage was scanned at 24.000. Reg 8 was recorded at 16, Super 8 was 18 & 24fps. As tests I've had decent results by slowing the play back rate of R8 to 0.667, and the Super 8 (18fps) to 0.975.

I wasn't sure what happens to every 1001 frame when using a project of 23.976. So far I can't tell if Vegas is blending or dropping.

@wjauch. Sorry, I was referring to cine footage, not video. I assumed when you said 4k you meant you had your footage scanned at 4k.