I would imagine you "remained loyal" because Vegas offered a better performance to price ratio than the other products you tried. If not, then you chose to stay loyal believing that you were using an inferior product, which, if I were one of your customers, would make me wonder...

What I mean is that, if you tried other products but stuck with Vegas out of loyalty, it would have to be because you believe that the competitor had something better to offer but you just couldn't betray SoFo. Otherwise, you are not staying out of loyalty; you're staying because Vegas offers more.

Make sense?

For argument sake: New users should pay less.
Say the first five customers have to fund the company’s operations of $100,000 per year and on average a new upgrade will be released once a year. First year each seat will have to cost $20,000. Ten years later, and because of good business practices no new personnel have been added and the customer base has increased to 500, now the new software costs $300, and upgrades are $100. The original customers may complain loudly about how over ten years they have had to send $50,000. The fact is that today for their upgrade they only pay $100 because the company aggressively sought out new customers.

Ok, change that to 1,000 customers.

Patrick, I was speaking in general terms.

J--

"They seem so bitter, as if someone were cheating them. Why not appreciate where we've been, where we are, and where we're going? Why must so many people only focus on a negative that just isn't there?"

It's the ol' Glass half full/ half empty.

M

I'm on the phone with Qwest and Utah Power right now... why the heck should I not be entitled to a discount since I've been with them both 7 years now in my house.. how dare they charge a new person the same amount for phone and electricity. Don't they realize that I've been a loyal customer?

mike

Why did no one address my comment about that if my model was used then it was suddenly changed to todays current practice? I guarrandamntee everyone of you would be upset.

Your point is sound; however, it assumes that your model is superior. It is possible that your model has never been considered but, in the highly competitive realm of NLEs, it stands to reason that if your model provided a competitive advantage, it would have been adopted already. They do consider their selling prices/upgrade policies very carefully.

There ya go... now care to comment on my previous point...?

"I would imagine you "remained loyal" because Vegas offered a better performance to price ratio than the other products you tried. If not, then you chose to stay loyal believing that you were using an inferior product, which, if I were one of your customers, would make me wonder...

"What I mean is that, if you tried other products but stuck with Vegas out of loyalty, it would have to be because you believe that the competitor had something better to offer but you just couldn't betray SoFo. Otherwise, you are not staying out of loyalty; you're staying because Vegas offers more.

"Make sense?"

"I would imagine you "remained loyal" because Vegas offered a better performance to price ratio than the other products you tried. If not, then you chose to stay loyal believing that you were using an inferior product, which, if I were one of your customers, would make me wonder...

"What I mean is that, if you tried other products but stuck with Vegas out of loyalty, it would have to be because you believe that the competitor had something better to offer but you just couldn't betray SoFo. Otherwise, you are not staying out of loyalty; you're staying because Vegas offers more.

"Make sense?"


I didnt stay with Vegas because it offers more. I have stayed with Vegas because of familarity, price, and honestly, because at the time I adopted it, it was pretty much unknown and unique. My loyalty is to the SoFo team for providing an excellent product at a responsible price. Thats why I left Adobe.

Adobe does offer some things that SoFo didnt, especially in the DVD authoring field. While I own Encore, I will continue to support DVDA because of my loyalty.

But make no mistake, my loyalty is to SoFo, NOT Sony. Sony hasnt done anything to this point to earn loyalty. All they have done thus far is purchase the product line and send out an "accidental" press release.

I have owned plenty of Sony products and some were ok. The Viao line offered shoddy support and thats why I stopped purchasing them.

In regards to your point, I stay with Sony currently because the SoFo team is who I am loyal to. If Sony fails to show the same commitment and loyalty that SoFo showed to us, then I will be on my way to a company that does.

You can sit here and say all you want that my model isnt practiced but the one reason it isnt is because companies care more about making more money than they do about their customers. Telling yourself any different is assenine.

Companies exist to make money, period. People (possibly even you and me indirectly) loan them our money and expect it back with interest. Wether that's good thing or not is another issue but that's how capitalism works.
If a company figures it can make more money for it's shareholders by looking after its loyal customers versus tossing them to the wolves and focussing on new sales then it has an obligation to its shareholders to do just that.
However time and again it has been shown that naked greed only makes the bottom line look good for a short period, looking after your customers is a good way to improve the bottom line, weathering the economic storms leaves you in a stronger porition to make a killing when the storm passes, you've still got your core competancy intact..

Personally I think it's a very difficult call offering discounts on upgrades. Bug fixes are another matter. But I've paid for the product, I've made a healthy return on my investment so where's the gripe if I've got to invest more to make more? We all want free ice cream but just because I've done one job or ten jobs for a customer should I charge them differently?

The best test for any model like this is to think through what you'd do if it was your work you were selling off, keeping in mind that the bank would like its money back and you've got a family to feed.

That's not loyalty. You stayed with the product because of familarity, price and uniquity. You claim loyalty because they provided "an excellent product at a responsible price". That's not loyalty to the company nor the people; that's loyalty to your needs (which is not a bad thing).

You have used and stayed with the product because it serves your needs. If, at anytime, it didn't meet the list of benefits you listed, would you keep using the product? I hope not because, if you did, that would be asinine... but that would be loyalty to the company.

"You can sit here and say all you want that my model isnt practiced but the one reason it isnt is because companies care more about making more money than they do about their customers. Telling yourself any different is assenine."

Profits don't magically appear... they come from customers. If your model meant that they would retain enough of an increase in customers to offset the cost they would incur from dropping the price, they would do it. Just as, if Adobe, Pinnacle or any other company better met your list of criteria, you would switch products. You don't stick with Sofo/Sony because of the people, you stick with them because their product meets your needs just as they don't give discounts because they like you, they do so because it meets their needs.

And there's nothing wrong with that...

Ah acidsex, reading you brings back memories of my youth! :-) The rigorous internal logic untouched by any connection to the way the actual world works, the logic based on assumptions based assumptions based on unsubstantiated assertions, ah yes... Also, the firm belief that anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't understand your points (it never occurs to you that we DO understand your points but see them as full of holes?). You said, in no particular order:

* Why did no one address my comment about that if
* my model was used then it was suddenly changed to
* todays current practice? I guarrandamntee
* everyone of you would be upset.

Define upset. I find it hard to get upset when a company, who has never used your pricing model, "suddenly" decide to continue not using it. Shock! :-)

Put it this way - I admit to feeling a bit let down when a piece of freeware that I like and use suddenly goes commercial - after all, even if the new price is reasonable it's still a lot compared to free. But if I jumped onto their forums and complaines, would that mean the programmers are being disloyal to me? Or am I just being a whiny so-and-so for complaining that the latest version is going to cost me a few bucks? Why isn't my loyalty to the free version being rewarded? When the programmer points out that I've had a few years of access to the free version, and isn't that worth something, what would you think of me if I continued to complain on their own forum?

(yes, I've seen people complain that v2 of a piece of freeware now costs momey, even though they have still got the perfectly functioning v1 on their systems)

Acidsex, what you're doing here is almost the same thing - you assign no worth to all the previous versions of Vegas you've bought, and place the ENTIRE cost of ALL of those versions next to the price a "new user" pays for their first version. If you can't see how irrational that is then you're just being stubborn.

Old users are rewarded with discounts. New users pay more.

That's it.

I teach part time at a film school, and in the editing class I'm often asked by students (most of whom are 18) how much it will cost to set up a home edit suite with broadcastable-quality output, and when I tell them it can cost as little as AU$3,500 including the DV camera, I usually go on a rant about how good they've got it, how once upon a time, not so long ago, an all-digital editing solution, including digital video camera, device control, and non-linear software plus a couple of hundred gigs of HD space, would have cost them anything from AU$20,000 to AU$100,000. They usually just stare at me blankly and I go back to the lecture... :-)

In short - we've never had it so good. Complaining that the discount for upgraders isn't good enough (which is ultimately what your complaint boils down to) is churlish.

* I didnt stay with Vegas because it offers more. I
* have stayed with Vegas because of familarity,
* price, and honestly, because at the time I
* adopted it, it was pretty much unknown and
* unique. My loyalty is to the SoFo team for
* providing an excellent product at a responsible
* price. Thats why I left Adobe.

Then your problem is that you've got the wrong attitude to software purchasing (either that or you're lying to yourself and you really do get more out of Vegas than other editors). You're not supposed to make purchasing decisions on the basis of your loyalty to the company (it's software for Pete's sake - not a football team!). And if you DO make decisions based on your definition of "loyalty", you can't then insist that the company also make its decisions based on your definitions of loyalty - not if you want to be taken seriously! :-D

* But make no mistake, my loyalty is to SoFo, NOT
* Sony. Sony hasnt done anything to this point to
* earn loyalty. All they have done thus far is
* purchase the product line and send out an
* "accidental" press release.

And they released a new version of Sound Forge with a generous discount for upgraders. Sony seem to be sticking to the SoFo approach - why assume the worst?

* You can sit here and say all you want that my
* model isnt practiced but the one reason it isnt
* is because companies care more about making more
* money than they do about their customers.

You seem to have come to the conclusion, rather late in life if you don't mind me saying so, that companies need to make a profit. Uh huh. Are you at least OPEN to the idea that your proposed solution would not only result in Sony making a loss, but also, ironically, result in them placing a LOT more importance on new customers, since new customers would be investing a lot more in their software year by year than old customers? Can you at least admit that you MIGHT be completely wrong? I can - though nothing you've said has convinced me towards your view.

* Telling
* yourself any different is assenine.

Heh - funny! There is one person on this thread being "assenine". I'll let others decide who it is.

All the best,



Skevos Mavros
http://www.mavart.com

>>Free upgrades for a lifetime would kill most businesses. However, why shouldnt users that have bought VV3 and VV4 receive a deeper discount than a user who has only bought VV4?<<

Very simple: because older uses have had the software for a longer period of time. Virtually no software is "sold." It is "licensed." This is similar to paying "rent." So the longer you have the software, the more rent you pay.

Also, the longer you have the software, the more money you should have made with it, so the less of a problem a small upgrade fee should be. If it is a problem, then there's probably no real reason for you to upgrade, anyway.

-nate-

... what features are we (probably) going to see in VV5? Aside from the (test?"accidental") press release?

Geez...if you want to start ranting about how long you have used the product consider that people like Spot, likely Chienwerks, Bill nad myself bought the program for full price when it was called Vegas Pro way back in about 1999? There wasn't much to choose from for a multitrack editor that would work with Sound FOrge and, yes, I felt raped paying for the XF!, XF2 and XF3 plugins but I made my money back in jig time, despite paying FULL price for the set. If it does the job for you you will make back your money. If you cannot stand paying 199$ or so to upgrade, stick with version 4 and be calm and happy. I paid 699 USD for ReelDVD but when I switched to Encore I didn't consider to ask for a discount...

Digital camera--$1500.00
Editing PC $2200.00
Vegas +DVD $600.00
cost to upgrade $ ????

Posts like these--- priceless

HD camera---$100,000.00
Computer---$5,000.00
Vegas---$199.00

JJK

Skevos said, "And they released a new version of Sound Forge with a generous discount for upgraders. Sony seem to be sticking to the SoFo approach - why assume the worst?"

Well, the reason I am assuming the worst currently is that no information has been released and add to it, the thread not too long ago where the poster said that Sony was considering raising the price to make the product line apear more professional with today's professional editing apps to help it gain acceptance. That is what i have a problem with. If things stay the same as last year, I wont have much of a problem.

"UNKNOWN?

So, like pb said, 1999?

Even though your first post is from one year ago?"

Yes, I have been a customer since Vegas' inception. I didnt discover the board until last year. Dont make the assumption that every one who purchases the product hangs out on the board. I lurked for quite a time before.

the thread not too long ago where the poster said that Sony was considering raising the price to make the product line apear more professional with today's professional editing apps to help it gain acceptance.


Thats what this is all about, one post of somebodys opinion ? Come on now you know what opinions are worth . Relax and wait and see .Vegas 5 , hell I'm still waiting for a fix to Vegas 4 to get the bins working right,