V13 - something odd with the fades...

Mindmatter wrote on 9/26/2014, 1:32 PM

Hi all,

just rendered 3 small 5 min projects with a lot of fades to black, applied to text and video tracks. While I'm kinda used to the fades being somewhat erratic within heavily FXed and loaded projects due to the preview weakness, I was surprised to see that they behave oddly in the rendered files too.
There's a black to about 50% of the curve, then a fast appearance of the image. Not what you would call a fade in - too fast, too brutal. Seems independent of curve types and length, and it seems worse on fade ins than fade outs. The worst track has the sony brightness/contrast plugin, as well as levels and color corrector, and the images are set to be heavy on the black side to eliminate dust particles on a black cloth deco onto which objects are displayed. I guess it's the amount of blackness that makes it hard for the fade in to take effect gradually but still...
My renders are done with the Sony AVC HD for internet preset, with a VBR set to 8-12 mbs. Could a higher bitrate be the solution?
Has anyone else seen this or found a solution?
Thanks!

Comments

Marc S wrote on 9/26/2014, 1:49 PM

Not sure if this will solve your problem but are you putting a legal black file on the lower track? Vegas default background is illegal black unlike other editors such Premiere which are studio black levels.

I used to drop a color media event and set the RGB to 16,16,16, but since Sony changed the color values to something I've never been able to make sense of I just create a Vegas legal black .png file in Photoshop by setting the RGB to 16,16,16.. If I want pure white I create a white .png at 235,235,235.

Former user wrote on 9/26/2014, 2:09 PM

Rather than fading the track with the effects, add another track and fade a black event up or down to reveal the lower tracks.

Duncan H wrote on 9/26/2014, 10:05 PM

Marc,

Thanks for your post. I am unashamedly making an effort to hijack this thread, apologies to the OP, however your response made me realize that I am not alone. Could some kind and wise person please explain how Sony colour management works as per Marc's comment, using the example of simply trying to insert a legal black generated media track. Apologies if this is a really silly question, but I'm with Marc on this one. Thanks

john_dennis wrote on 9/26/2014, 11:20 PM

There have been many detailed discussions on this subject. Try these threads:

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/can-someone-explain-to-me-black-levels-in-a-track--88696/

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/can-someone-explain-to-me-black-levels-in-a-track--88696/

https://www.vegascreativesoftware.info/us/forum/survey-what-min-max-levels-does-your-cam-shoot--84677/

"Vegas default background is illegal black..."

The Vegas default background can more easily be conceived of as "nothing" or transparent which is interpreted as 0,0,0, when previewed or rendered.

Per farss in one of the links:

"Because Vegas is also a compositor.
The default background isn't absolute black, it's nothing i.e. 100% transparent, it has to be, because that's how it works in any compositor. Unfortunately unlike After Effects Vegas doesn't have an option to display the standard checkerboard that denotes transparency. Of course not too many codecs support transparency so when rendering to those Vegas is forced to render transparency against absolute black which makes perfect sense, if it used "legal" black the result would be wrong."

Here's an example of generated media values that create a 16,16,16 black.

2017-06-21 Updated links to stop redirection.

Arthur.S wrote on 9/27/2014, 11:48 AM

Don't 'get' that John. I understand 16,16,16, but what's 0.07 0.07.0.07??

Marc S wrote on 9/27/2014, 12:30 PM

"Don't 'get' that John. I understand 16,16,16, but what's 0.07 0.07.0.07??"

EXACTLY!

NormanPCN wrote on 9/27/2014, 1:12 PM

I understand 16,16,16, but what's 0.07 0.07.0.07?

Think percentages. 8-bit is a 0..255 range and 10-bit 0..1023.
16/255 is about .063 or 6.3%. .07 is 7% which is pretty close to 6.3.

If you look at the levels fx, studio to computer preset, you see the bottom range is .063.
If you look at the upper range, .92, you will see that percentage corresponds to 235.

SCS just switched to a color model independent of the underlying bit depth. 0..1.0 floating point. It is kind of a pain when one is used to something else.

videoITguy wrote on 9/27/2014, 2:11 PM

The decimal numbers come into the color model of HSV with transparency channel.
VegasPro13 uses these to set up colors in generated media. But note several things you can go into ProType Titler and choose either HSV or RGB

AND NOTE this - open your scopes on a solid color on the timeline and it will give you the translation back to the indicators we are used to seeing - for example 235 for legal white - the scope auto translates your timeline values.

Mindmatter wrote on 9/29/2014, 3:43 AM

Dave T2, thanks a bunch for your idea, that actually solved it!
Thanks to everyone else too fo your input:; btw the black suggested with the 0,007 values is actually a sort of dark grey here. Definitely not a solid black in direct comparison...just sayin', although I can't say I have a clue as to why.

Marc S wrote on 9/29/2014, 3:53 AM

"SCS just switched to a color model independent of the underlying bit depth. 0..1.0 floating point. It is kind of a pain when one is used to something else."

Seems to me they should have stayed with what the standard seems to be in all of the other editors and graphics programs I've used. Or at least give us the option of the old RGB way. Why complicate things that work perfectly fine as is?

farss wrote on 9/29/2014, 4:58 AM

[I]"the black suggested with the 0,007 values is actually a sort of dark grey here. Definitely not a solid black in direct comparison...just sayin', although I can't say I have a clue as to why."[/I]

That's because the internal preview monitor in Vegas displays video incorrectly.

If you don't have an external preview monitor you can fix the internal preview monitor by clicking on the FX icon on the preview pane and adding the Levels FX with the StudioRGB to ComputerRGB preset. Just remember to disable the FX before you render or you'll really get things messed up.

Bob.

NormanPCN wrote on 9/29/2014, 12:32 PM

That's because the internal preview monitor in Vegas displays video incorrectly.

Pedantically, It does not display studio RGB video levels correctly. If your video is full range, as mine is, it displays fine.

I got sick of Vegas features fighting me trying to keep levels in studio range. The Antares preview levels extension was a help but other things were still a fight.

I just edit full range, use full range colors, and render with a computer to studio RGB levels effect.

Mindmatter wrote on 9/30/2014, 6:20 AM

Thanks for the info Bob!