Vegas 21 Build 314: Getting Black frames in between clips

Julius_ wrote on 5/15/2024, 7:19 PM

I placed about 10 clips on the timeline.

Selected render Magix AVC/AAC MP4...and I see black frames inserted between clips when I look at the rendered file. I also see the black frames when it's rendering in the preview window.

But no problems with sony a7iv clips.

Going back to 300 for now.

Media INFO from black clips inserted in rendered file:

General
Complete name                            : K:\Capture2024\Abdel_Dania\Footage\Reception\592YARH0\05920001.MP4
Format                                   : MPEG-4
Format profile                           : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID                                 : mp42 (mp42/avc1)
File size                                : 51.5 MiB
Duration                                 : 4 s 505 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 95.8 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2024-05-12 16:21:27
Tagged date                              : UTC 2024-05-12 16:21:27

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L5
Format settings                          : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, RefFrames               : 2 frames
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 4 s 505 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 94.1 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 106 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.757
Stream size                              : 50.5 MiB (98%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2024-05-12 16:21:27
Tagged date                              : UTC 2024-05-12 16:21:27
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Big / Signed
Format settings, Endianness              : Big
Format settings, Sign                    : Signed
Codec ID                                 : twos
Duration                                 : 4 s 505 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 845 KiB (2%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2024-05-12 16:21:27
Tagged date                              : UTC 2024-05-12 16:21:27

Other
ID                                       : 3
Type                                     : Time code
Format                                   : QuickTime TC
Duration                                 : 4 s 505 ms
Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00:00
Time code, striped                       : Yes
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2024-05-12 16:21:27
Tagged date                              : UTC 2024-05-12 16:21:27
Bit rate mode                            : CBR

 

 

However no problems with Sony A7iv clips

Media Info:

General
Complete name                            : K:\Capture2024\Abdel_Dania\Footage\Ceremony_Park\C0002.MP4
Format                                   : XAVC
Codec ID                                 : XAVC (XAVC/mp42/iso2)
File size                                : 64.1 MiB
Duration                                 : 7 s 7 ms
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 76.8 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2024-05-12 18:21:21
Tagged date                              : UTC 2024-05-12 18:21:21

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : High@L4.2
Format settings                          : CABAC / 2 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC                   : Yes
Format settings, RefFrames               : 2 frames
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 7 s 7 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 49.3 Mb/s
Maximum bit rate                         : 60.0 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 59.940 (60000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.396
Stream size                              : 41.2 MiB (64%)
Encoded date                             : UTC 2024-05-12 18:21:21
Tagged date                              : UTC 2024-05-12 18:21:21
Color range                              : Limited
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Big / Signed
Format settings, Endianness              : Big
Format settings, Sign                    : Signed
Codec ID                                 : twos
Duration                                 : 7 s 7 ms
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 1.28 MiB (2%)
Encoded date                             : UTC 2024-05-12 18:21:21
Tagged date                              : UTC 2024-05-12 18:21:21

Other
Type                                     : meta
Duration                                 : 7 s 7 ms

Comments

Dexcon wrote on 5/15/2024, 7:42 PM

Have you got 'Quantize to Frames' activated at the top of the Options context menu?

When activated, any frame that doesn't sit bang on a frame line on the timeline will be highlighted in red.

In the above screenshot, the LH edge of the audio event sits midway between two frame lines (arrowed). When this happens with a video event, rendering will render the entire first frame but render that whole frame as black.

Any unquantized video events need to be manually adjusted to a frame line. Unquantized audio events aren't so important in fixing unless one wants to do so.

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 18.5, BCC 2023.5, Mocha Pro 2023, Ignite Pro, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX10 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

Julius_ wrote on 5/15/2024, 7:54 PM

okay, now I am confused....I placed the clips on the timeline via the Explorer window in Vegas..A simple drag and drop, that has always snapped all the clips together. I zoom in and I see this:

Now I tried the "Show unquarantined.." and I get this:

I see the red, but where is it coming from if I am dragging the clips to the timeline and they all snap together...This was working fine in 300 and previous version.

Thank you

RogerS wrote on 5/15/2024, 8:42 PM

Is the timeline set to a framerate that exactly matches these clips?

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

Dexcon wrote on 5/15/2024, 9:53 PM

I get unquantized frames regularly when using phone video (Samsung S23 Ultra and previous Samsung phones as well) because phone video is invariably at NTSC frame rates (i.e. 24, 29.7, 30, 60 fps) and is also recorded in a variable frame rate (VFR) which means that in reality the frame rate recorded by the phone can vary considerably from the fps rate chosen in settings.

In the following image, the bottom video track shows the original VFR video from the phone - there's lots of unquantized frames. The top video track contains the same video events after they have been transcoded to 25 fps at a constant frame rate (CFR) in Vegas Pro 21 - there are no unquantized frames.

To see what unquantized means, zoom right in on the timeline to a few frames only and you'll see the the red frame edge does not sit on a frame line - it sits midway between the two frame lines (L & R) of the one frame.

In the above pic, the two markers show the beginning and end lines of just the one frame. The phone video ends midway in the frame. If rendered, this frame will likely render as black because the frame isn't fully occupied by the video image. To fix, it's just a matter of trimming the end of the video event to the LH frame line and then moving the following events up by one frame usually by using Ripple.

Enabling the quantize menu option does not change the position of any event on the timeline, all it does is identify unquantized frames.

From your MediaInfo report, I see that your video has been shot CFR so the unquantized frames may be caused, as alluded to earlier in this thread, by the project frame rate not being exactly the same as the media.

The unquantized frame issue is not new to Vegas Pro 21 build 314 by any means. I first encountered the unquantized frame (with one black frame in the render) issue back in 2013 in Vegas Pro 12 - and that was with video media that was the same CFR frame rate as the project. Prior to the last few Vegas Pro versions, enabling the unquantized frame display had to be done in Internal Preferences.

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 18.5, BCC 2023.5, Mocha Pro 2023, Ignite Pro, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX10 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

NickHope wrote on 5/15/2024, 10:40 PM

Please follow this post as a guide for providing comprehensive information to help troubleshoot problems like this. In particular:

What was the source of the files (what camera)? (B3)

Which decoder is Vegas using? (C2)

Julius_ wrote on 5/16/2024, 5:17 AM

Is the timeline set to a framerate that exactly matches these clips?

No it does not and don't intent to. I shoot in 60fps and timeline is in 30fps.

The camera is a Panasonic HC-X1.

Remember that this has always worked for me, until V21 build 314 and that on the same timeline, I have other clips from a Sony A7iv (60fps) that work fine.
The template used was Magix AVC/AAC MP4.
I reverted back to build 300.

Last changed by Julius_ on 5/16/2024, 5:21 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

i7-6800 (Intel 3.40GHz, 6 cores)

Windows 10 PRO (up to date)

32GB Ram

MB: x99A Raider, MS-7885 (MSI)

SDD+HDD

AMD Radeon R9 390

Vegas user since V5

Realtek audio

 

Reyfox wrote on 5/16/2024, 5:58 AM

@Julius_ not everyone might be using your camera or have a sample of a couple of clips to test. If you can upload a couple of samples, others can test and see if the problem is present on their systems.

RogerS wrote on 5/16/2024, 6:18 AM

Is the timeline set to a framerate that exactly matches these clips?

No it does not and don't intent to. I shoot in 60fps and timeline is in 30fps.

The camera is a Panasonic HC-X1.

Remember that this has always worked for me, until V21 build 314 and that on the same timeline, I have other clips from a Sony A7iv (60fps) that work fine.
The template used was Magix AVC/AAC MP4.
I reverted back to build 300.


@Julius_ Did you pick a project framerate that is an exact multiple of the source clip (59.94 vs 60fps)?

I agree with Reyfox it would be very helpful to get sample clips to test if you can upload one or more to Google Drive, box, Dropbox, etc. There must be an issue with the decoder and this media.

Custom PC (2022) Intel i5-13600K with UHD 770 iGPU with latest driver, MSI z690 Tomahawk motherboard, 64GB Corsair DDR5 5200 ram, NVIDIA 2080 Super (8GB) with latest studio driver, 2TB Hynix P41 SSD, Windows 11 Pro 64 bit

Dell XPS 15 laptop (2017) 32GB ram, NVIDIA 1050 (4GB) with latest studio driver, Intel i7-7700HQ with Intel 630 iGPU (latest available driver), dual internal SSD (1TB; 1TB), Windows 10 64 bit

VEGAS Pro 19.651
VEGAS Pro 20.411
VEGAS Pro 21.208

Try the
VEGAS 4K "sample project" benchmark: https://forms.gle/ypyrrbUghEiaf2aC7
VEGAS Pro 20 "Ad" benchmark: https://forms.gle/eErJTR87K2bbJc4Q7

Julius_ wrote on 5/16/2024, 8:03 AM

Sure thing...

Here's a few clips...just place them on timeline and you can render it out or just do a SHIFT-B on a region.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/wh87t72jmvv2zzl4t38qm/ALsvprQqLuezXt-OSgzBwHM?rlkey=ts3p0loulvp7wz8ffs34tn256&st=ak7oh90j&dl=0

 

Thank you!!

Reyfox wrote on 5/16/2024, 8:21 AM

@Julius_ dragging the clips to the timeline and rendering, yes, black frames at the end of each clip.

When in Options>Preferences>File I/O, and turning Hardware Decoder to Use, to OFF, it rendered correctly.

My hardware specs are in my Signature. I am using AMD's latest driver 24.5.1.

ADDED: I rendering in both 60 and 30P and the results were the same. No issues.

Screenshot of the CPU and GPU usage when I started rendering.

 

Last changed by Reyfox on 5/16/2024, 8:25 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Newbie😁

Vegas Post 365 (Currently VP21)

Win 11 Pro

AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 16 cores / 32 threads

32GB DDR4 3200

Sapphire RX6700XT 12GB Driver: 22.5.1, testing 24.5.1

Gigabyte X570 Elite Motherboard

Gid wrote on 5/16/2024, 8:23 AM

Hi, I too use a 30p project & regularly get unquantified frames, there's a difference between NV Encoder & Mainconcept 🤷‍♂️ I know how to trim the on the timeline & I know the OP has an AMD GPU, I'm just sharing for this post.

I didn't change the project throughout only the Encode Mode option.

 

Vegas Pro 21
Vegas Pro/Post 19
Boris Continuum & Sapphire, 
Silhouette Standalone + Plugin, 
Mocha Pro Standalone + Plugin, 
Boris Optics,
Desktop PC Microsoft Windows 10 Pro - 64-Bit
ASUS PRO WS WRX80E-SAGE SE WIFI AMD Motherboard
AMD Ryzen Threadripper PRO 3975WX 3.5GHz 32 Core
Corsair iCUE H150i RGB PRO XT 360mm All-in-One Liquid CPU Cooler
RAM 256GB ( 8x Micron 32GB (1x 32GB) 2666MHz DDR4 RAM )
2x Western Digital Black SN850 2TB M.2-2280 SSD, 7000MB/s Read, 5100MB/s Write
(programs on one, project files on the other)
Graphics MSI GeForce RTX 3090 SUPRIM X 24GB OC GPU
ASUS ROG Thor 1200W Semi-Modular 80+ Platinum PSU 
Fractal Design Define 7 XL Dark TG Case with 3 Fans
Dell SE3223Q 31.5 Inch 4K UHD (3840x2160) Monitor, 60Hz, & an Acer 24" monitor.

At the moment my filming is done with a Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra 5G & a GoPro11

I've been a Joiner/Carpenter for 40yrs, apprentice trained time served, I don't have an apprentice of my own so to share my knowledge I put videos on YouTube.

YouTube videos - https://www.youtube.com/c/Gidjoiner

Lots of work photos on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/gid.joiner/photos_albums

Dexcon wrote on 5/16/2024, 8:29 AM

Thank you for uploading the video events. Here is the timeline in Vegas Pro 21 with the project frame rate set at 59.94 fps:

No quantized frames

Here is the exact same timeline after the project properties is changed to 29.97 fps (no changes at all made to the timeline):

And here is a zoomed in down to one frame view of the first frame of the first video event:

The markers and width of the arrow is one frame only. In PAL frame rates, a 10 seconds video is 250 frames in length, but if that video event is not quantized, the length of that event may be something like 250.3 frames or 249.7 frames in length.

BTW, I got exactly the same result with importing those same video events into Vegas Pro 19.

And exactly the same thing in Sony Vegas Pro 12:

The 59.94 video on the timeline when the project properties have been changed to 29.97.

Last changed by Dexcon on 5/16/2024, 8:43 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 & 21, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 18.5, BCC 2023.5, Mocha Pro 2023, Ignite Pro, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX10 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/16/2024, 8:34 AM

With this clips, I can repro the issue: in VP20 b411 it is possible to import the clips in the timeline without unquantitized frames showing up. But with VP21 b314, I see for the clip .... 6 always such an unquantifized frame at the end of the event.

Seems to be a decoding issue, since we had here a change in the decoder - from so4... to mxcompaundplug.dll

However, enabling the legacy AVC encoder does not resolve the issue (what means that we would go back so so4...) - but only on the first try. If one enables the legacy AVC encoder, and makes sure to import the events again, it is gone also in VP21 b314. See the second event part after the marker (was imported when the legacy AVC encoder was enabled - you find that in preferences files I/O):

And: I do not see that in VP20 b411.

@VEGASDerek

Last changed by Wolfgang S. on 5/16/2024, 8:44 AM, changed a total of 2 times.

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * GTX 3080 Ti * Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE, 32 GB Ram. Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB) with internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor. Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

Gid wrote on 5/16/2024, 9:36 AM

@Wolfgang S. Hi, If I'm understanding this post correctly is this the same thing your seeing with the OP's files?

I converted all these with Handbrake to Constant 30p & clicked Yes to match project to media but still have red unquantified frames

Last changed by Gid on 5/16/2024, 9:36 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Vegas Pro 21
Vegas Pro/Post 19
Boris Continuum & Sapphire, 
Silhouette Standalone + Plugin, 
Mocha Pro Standalone + Plugin, 
Boris Optics,
Desktop PC Microsoft Windows 10 Pro - 64-Bit
ASUS PRO WS WRX80E-SAGE SE WIFI AMD Motherboard
AMD Ryzen Threadripper PRO 3975WX 3.5GHz 32 Core
Corsair iCUE H150i RGB PRO XT 360mm All-in-One Liquid CPU Cooler
RAM 256GB ( 8x Micron 32GB (1x 32GB) 2666MHz DDR4 RAM )
2x Western Digital Black SN850 2TB M.2-2280 SSD, 7000MB/s Read, 5100MB/s Write
(programs on one, project files on the other)
Graphics MSI GeForce RTX 3090 SUPRIM X 24GB OC GPU
ASUS ROG Thor 1200W Semi-Modular 80+ Platinum PSU 
Fractal Design Define 7 XL Dark TG Case with 3 Fans
Dell SE3223Q 31.5 Inch 4K UHD (3840x2160) Monitor, 60Hz, & an Acer 24" monitor.

At the moment my filming is done with a Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra 5G & a GoPro11

I've been a Joiner/Carpenter for 40yrs, apprentice trained time served, I don't have an apprentice of my own so to share my knowledge I put videos on YouTube.

YouTube videos - https://www.youtube.com/c/Gidjoiner

Lots of work photos on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/gid.joiner/photos_albums

Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/16/2024, 9:48 AM

@Gid 

I have only used the original footage as it was uploaded. 

Converting it with Handbrake is a good idea for editing purposes. However, there's uncertainty in reproducing the issue here. It should work without conversion since the footage is HD and plays back well even on my laptop at full quality set the preview to best/full. Therefore, there's no reason to convert it.

I must state clearly that I do not understand why Dexcon has reached different conclusions. I cannot explain their findings.

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Gid wrote on 5/16/2024, 10:32 AM

@Wolfgang S. Thanks, yes the footage from my phone even tho it's variable plays without issue. I don't normally convert them. (I do convert some to Prores but that's just for when playing with fxs)

I converted these 4 as a test after reading this post to try to work out why even when I have converted media for whatever reason it loads with red unquantified frames, even rendering out of Vegas & then dragging back in some have these red ends, 🤷‍♂️

If you or anyone wants to try them you're more than welcome, test files - 4 x AVC UHD 30p folder size 128mb

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At the moment my filming is done with a Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra 5G & a GoPro11

I've been a Joiner/Carpenter for 40yrs, apprentice trained time served, I don't have an apprentice of my own so to share my knowledge I put videos on YouTube.

YouTube videos - https://www.youtube.com/c/Gidjoiner

Lots of work photos on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/gid.joiner/photos_albums

Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/16/2024, 10:36 AM

Phone footage often has variable frame rates, which can cause issues. However, we have footage from a Panasonic camera that offers constant frame rates, eliminating the need for conversion. Given Panasonic's expertise in this field, it seems we should look for a solution elsewhere. And interestingly, we have a brand new decoder in VP21. A new decoder indeed...

The test footage is from which phone?

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HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/16/2024, 10:46 AM

Indeed, the footage is intriguing! However, it has been converted using Handbrake, as indicated by Mediainfo.

Do you possess any original clips from the phone? That would be fantastic!

Moreover, even the Handbrake-converted footage exhibits the quantization issue with the new encoder. Yet, reverting to the older legacy encoder resolves the problem once more.

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HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

NickHope wrote on 5/16/2024, 11:06 AM

This also affects me if I put a batch of my Panasonic GH4 29.97fps UHD AVC+PCM clips on the timeline at once.

  • VP21 b314
    • mxcompoundplug
      • Some unquantized ends, followed by tiny gap
      • Some quantized, single-frame gaps
      • Same result with and without hardware decoding
    • so4compoundplug
      • Some quantized, single-frame gaps
    • compoundplug
      • Some quantized, single-frame gaps
  • VP20 b411
    • so4compoundplug
      • No unquantized ends
      • No gaps
    • compoundplug
      • No unquantized ends
      • No gaps

Feels to me like there might be more than 1 issue here. i.e. A math error when laying footage on the timeline, as well as mxcompoundplug not always quantizing the ends.

bvideo wrote on 5/16/2024, 11:23 AM

General comments about quantize and black frames (sorry if obvious; wasn't always obvious to me):

"Options -> Quantize to Frames -> [x] Enable quantize to frames" will position imported events at frame boundaries as defined by the project properties frame rate. Makes sense.

Events that are not an exact multiple of frames in length according to project properties will end seemingly in the middle of a frame. The following event will be aligned at the next frame boundary. That leaves a gap of less than a frame. I don't know what this *should* mean, but it results in black frames on render. Turning on "Options -> Quantize to Frames -> [x] Show unquantized frame boundaries" will show where this is likely to happen. Again, this is based on the timing of frame boundaries as determined by the project properties.

Any mismatch between an event length with its frame rate vs project properties and its frame rate will likely cause these gaps (i.e. frame length, thus event length, is determined by frame rate).

That is what will happen with mismatched frame rates when the event decoder calculates event lengths correctly, always did, and is not a bug (opinions may vary). Workarounds would be to match the project properties to all the events or turn off quantize to frames* before importing. A related issue could happen when modifying the project properties (frame rate) after importing events. Makes sense. Then things that were quantized might not be, and vice versa. Also, changing the selected decoder from a correct one to a buggy one** might change the quantization of end boundaries.

Another workaround would be to run a script that truncates the last partial frames of offending events, thus creating single frame gaps, and ripples all the events to close the gaps.

* Using the don't enable quantize to frames solution causes imported events to be joined in mid frame. This might cause a different glitch, whereby a frame rendered at that event boundary shows a blend of the two events. How that looks on playback might or might not be a problem. Changing project properties (frame rate) after importing could also cause this.

** Past versions of the different HEVC decoders actually resulted in different event lengths! I don't know about now.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/16/2024, 11:46 AM

@bvideo

this is all correct what you say - and that is why we try to adjust the project framerate to the framerate of the footage we edit. And why we enable quantize to frames.

As we see it in VP20 b411 for example, where everything is ok (as shown here by some of us).

I think the team has to review the findings from here. I have forewarded that to them.

 

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * GTX 3080 Ti * Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

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HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

Gid wrote on 5/16/2024, 12:22 PM

@Wolfgang S. These are the 4 original untouched files, 3 from the Samsung S23 Ultra & 1 from a Gopro 11,

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1uMRSiewKSkyT_yNcPVy0-8I_liG0t3Py?usp=sharing

----------------

The orig ones in the link above are HEVC, the ones I sent earlier I had made a mistake & converted to AVC,

This is with the correctly converted to HEVC constant using Handbrake, same result with the quantified frames.

Last changed by Gid on 5/16/2024, 12:28 PM, changed a total of 1 times.

Vegas Pro 21
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Mocha Pro Standalone + Plugin, 
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RAM 256GB ( 8x Micron 32GB (1x 32GB) 2666MHz DDR4 RAM )
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Fractal Design Define 7 XL Dark TG Case with 3 Fans
Dell SE3223Q 31.5 Inch 4K UHD (3840x2160) Monitor, 60Hz, & an Acer 24" monitor.

At the moment my filming is done with a Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra 5G & a GoPro11

I've been a Joiner/Carpenter for 40yrs, apprentice trained time served, I don't have an apprentice of my own so to share my knowledge I put videos on YouTube.

YouTube videos - https://www.youtube.com/c/Gidjoiner

Lots of work photos on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/gid.joiner/photos_albums

Wolfgang S. wrote on 5/16/2024, 12:41 PM

Thank you for the files. As anticipated, the original Samsung files exhibit variable frame rates. Here, both the new and the old decoders display unquantized frames. These files are HEVC, which means switching the encoder to the legacy AVC will not be effective, as this is not HEVC footage. In this case, one can only test the experimental HEVC encoder.

However, playback is smooth with both HEVC encoders, including for the GoPro file.

What reasons might there be to proceed with the conversion? Is it to address the variable frame rate issue?

Desktop: PC AMD 3960X, 24x3,8 Mhz * GTX 3080 Ti * Blackmagic Extreme 4K 12G * QNAP Max8 10 Gb Lan * Blackmagic Pocket 6K/6K Pro, EVA1, FS7

Laptop: ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (ProArt Studiobook 16 OLED (i9 12900H with i-GPU Iris XE, 32 GB Ram. Geforce RTX 3070 TI 8GB) with internal HDR preview on the laptop monitor. Blackmagic Ultrastudio 4K mini

HDR monitor: ProArt Monitor PA32 UCG, Atomos Sumo

Gid wrote on 5/16/2024, 1:14 PM

@Wolfgang S. I only converted these as a test for this post & to ask why these unquantified frames happen with constant clips. I do test things to see if I can get better performance or faster render speeds & have noticed these red unquantified ends appearing.

As I said I don't convert, I know they are variable, all my phone files play without problems & the HEVC now play better than ever in (300) & (314). In fact I've never had to convert to constant to do my reg editing even with variable AVC.

I have converted some occasionally for use with fxs hoping to get better playback, I now use ProRes to do that if I want. (I also use other apps like Boris's Silhouette Standalone & Mocha Pro Standalone, they both will work with MP4, constant is better than variable but they prefer ProRes), so occasionally I'll drag those converted to MP4 constant into Vegas & see the red ends.

I've always used a phone to film, I had it set for AVC because that is what Vegas preferred, I bought this phone at the end of 2021 & also the Gopro11, the Gopro only creates HEVC files, I swapped the phone camera over from AVC to HEVC so I wasn't mixing formats on the timeline as I use both to film my work.

Vegas Pro 21
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Silhouette Standalone + Plugin, 
Mocha Pro Standalone + Plugin, 
Boris Optics,
Desktop PC Microsoft Windows 10 Pro - 64-Bit
ASUS PRO WS WRX80E-SAGE SE WIFI AMD Motherboard
AMD Ryzen Threadripper PRO 3975WX 3.5GHz 32 Core
Corsair iCUE H150i RGB PRO XT 360mm All-in-One Liquid CPU Cooler
RAM 256GB ( 8x Micron 32GB (1x 32GB) 2666MHz DDR4 RAM )
2x Western Digital Black SN850 2TB M.2-2280 SSD, 7000MB/s Read, 5100MB/s Write
(programs on one, project files on the other)
Graphics MSI GeForce RTX 3090 SUPRIM X 24GB OC GPU
ASUS ROG Thor 1200W Semi-Modular 80+ Platinum PSU 
Fractal Design Define 7 XL Dark TG Case with 3 Fans
Dell SE3223Q 31.5 Inch 4K UHD (3840x2160) Monitor, 60Hz, & an Acer 24" monitor.

At the moment my filming is done with a Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra 5G & a GoPro11

I've been a Joiner/Carpenter for 40yrs, apprentice trained time served, I don't have an apprentice of my own so to share my knowledge I put videos on YouTube.

YouTube videos - https://www.youtube.com/c/Gidjoiner

Lots of work photos on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/gid.joiner/photos_albums