Vegas and rendering :( fed up. Again.

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kkolbo wrote on 6/11/2010, 11:41 AM

I am glad that the discourse has turned more civil and things are being walked through step by step, but I really see this as a time waster. The thread started out as I can't render and I hate Vegas. It wasn't until later that it came out that this was 5D footage again from Lars. This is such old news.

I think everyone knows that 5D footage is problematic in Vegas Pro 9. I would be very surprised if SCS didn't know that quite well. I would be surprised if they didn't have one in their shop to play with by now. Development cycles of any magnitude are long and not instant patches. SCS may not feel that 5D footage is such a firestorm that they need to drop everything and issue fail proof support for it today. Maybe they are frying bigger fish. Yes it stinks for you. Some of us choose to use Vegas' strengths and use a DI to handle difficult formats. We do not have time to beat a dead horse that we know has been dead for a while. That's right, native 5D footage does not work flawlessly in Vegas. Now use a DI, or another NLE.

Yes you have old projects you need to deal with. Personally you seem to get target lock and not see when your wheels are spinning. If Vegas was not making the grade then, why would you continue and try to force the project into Vegas back then. You kind of made your own mess. If you need to make the old project work for the client, transcode the old source to a DI like Cineform and then swap the files in place. Go to the media pool, right click the media and choose replace media. You will have the same project, beautiful output, and more of your hair left. I believe the investment to solve the past project issue is about $129.

I can handle 5D footage in Vegas but the playback performance is not usable and I can only use a few clips before problems surface. What is being proved here.

It appears to me that the comments about individual machine issues began before it was clear you were complaining about 5D footage again. I do believe that there may be a software driver or something in your software configuration that may be causing some of your other difficulties, but I am not able to identify the culprit on a forum. That is not a remote diagnosis issue. You have to start with a clean system and test as things are loaded until a problem appears. 5D footage is not a valid indicator of system issues. It may not even be your system.

You may have found grievous flaws for your work flow. I just find it sad, like CClub, has pointed out that you seem to enjoy beating a dead horse and then calling in others to get covered in the stinking splatter. There are so many more constructive things that can be happening.

JMHO
A. Grandt wrote on 6/11/2010, 11:48 AM
While the modification of the three previously mentioned files may alleviate the problem, for now, I still think it's a more practical and stable solution to parse the 5D content through for instance Cineform, which seems to have little problem with it, no wonder really, it only opens one file at a time, as can Vegas.
The problem with 5d (and apparently quicktime in general) is that the qt7plug.dll is a general fubar case. It should not be allocating memory the way it seems to be doing. On the other hand, 5D content is definitely Mac specific, as it is using a little endian byte format, and that fact may be forcing Windows PC's (which are big endian) to load far more of it to decode it right.
rs170a wrote on 6/11/2010, 11:51 AM
I've been following this and other threads by LarsHD and would really like to know why he's so dead set against using proxies.
A lot of folks here are using various forms of Cineform and Epic 1 to deal with 5D footage and it makes their life a WHOLE lot easier.
Oh well, to each their own.
It's almost a weekend so I'm going to go home, jump in my pool and unwind from one hell of a week :-)

Mike
A. Grandt wrote on 6/11/2010, 12:14 PM
Mike, the one thing that I found striking in this issue, was that when I had converted the 5D footage to Cineform avi, made the 35 copies and imported them to Vegas, they
didn't use a lot of memory, probably not even half a GB total once loaded.
That may still be quite a bit to some, but the 66MB 5D files came out at 250MB Cineform, and for Vegas to only allocate 500MB or so, with 35 of those on the timeline definitely tells me that maybe Vegas' internals are not to blame, but the format and the decoder used for it may.
Rob Franks wrote on 6/11/2010, 12:18 PM
"The thread started out as I can't render and I hate Vegas "

Yes... and that's what pisses people off. If you have a problem then list it.... but please... without the dramatics.

LARS:
Does this fix your issue?
LarsHD wrote on 6/11/2010, 12:36 PM
I will try A. Grandts kind suggestion to do the file mods.

But I'm off now over the weekend, back on Tuesday so it will be next week.

I can see that some of you are jumping to conclusions that aren't correct here (in regards to my workflow and other things...) but oh well... More later.

Wishing you all a nice weekend!
Lars
CClub wrote on 6/11/2010, 1:06 PM
Rob,
I'd be interested if/when Lars is "back on Tuesday" if he can clearly articulate whether or not A Grandt's suggestion worked on his system. Lars was given a number of great recommendations above. J Cline again asked to try installing in another machine. Lars asked for the specs, as his "pc supplier would set it up." John gave a link to the specs. I guess over the weekend Lars' pc supplier is assembling this per John's recommendations. Lars asked above @ 11:03:34 would A Grandt's suggestion affect other things on his system; AG replied @ 11:08:34 that it would affect only Vegas. AFTER that Lars asked @ 11:14:13 "AG, will this affect anything else on my machine." WTF?

I'm not usually a ball-buster in this forum; check my history. But something about Lars doesn't "pass the smell test" here. Mark my words... We'll find out in the long run that another agenda was behind Lars' postings. I haven't been around as long as some here, but I think I've been here since Vegas 4 or 5, and these types of posters always show their true colors over time, and it's never for the betterment of Vegas users.
Rob Franks wrote on 6/11/2010, 2:10 PM
"But something about Lars doesn't "pass the smell test" here"

Believe me... I hear you and understand.
LarsHD wrote on 6/11/2010, 3:19 PM
Just got this from SCS support. They had been given the exact test recipe I posted previously in this thread:

===============================================

SCS: "Thank you for contacting Sony Creative Software. There is an issue between files from the Canon 5D Mark ii camera and Vegas Pro 9. Sometimes audio will not appear on the timeline with the video, other times the video stream will not appear on the timeline. The issue seems to be intermittent. The good news is that this should be resolved within the next release of Vegas Pro. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you, but do appreciate your patience and understanding."

==============================================

So thanks SCS. You confirmed by bug report and you responded in a polite and nice manner.

No comments about the crashes but perhaps that's part of the problem.

SCS just showed CClub & some other distinguished fellow forum members that technical issues can indeed be communicated in a civilized and friendly manner...


Best & have a nice weekend,
Lars



CClub wrote on 6/11/2010, 3:41 PM
Must be Tuesday... how'd A Grandt's file modification work out for you?
Rob Franks wrote on 6/11/2010, 4:42 PM
Actually the file mod was my work around.... but my guess is that Lars isn't too interested in fixing the issue anyway.
farss wrote on 6/11/2010, 5:08 PM
"my guess is that Lars isn't too interested in fixing the issue anyway"

Well so far LarsHD seems interested in getting the issue resolved for the benefit of all, not just HIS issue.

SCS have acknowledged the issue.
If it wasn't for the amount of disruptive "noise" that some here seem intent on creating then the results from these tests might be of some use to SCS in isolating the cause of the issue. So far several here have done an excellent job of hampering that effort. Bravo guys.

From my test and reading others results I can draw one very broad and simplistic conclusion. Running the 32bit version of Vegas 9 under a 32bit OS produces the least problems. I can load all 35 files with no real issue. I can open/close/open the project with no hangs. I have not modified any code or flags. I'm NOT saying there clearly isn't a problem, that's be absurd, especially given that the people who write the code agree with Lars.

From my limited experience with modern code debugging, fixing the problem is not so hard, identifying the problem is most of the work and tests such as the one Lars has asked us to run can be very helpfull to the codesmiths. Yes it takes a bit of careful work from a lot of users, isn't that in part what we're here for.

Bob.
Rob Franks wrote on 6/11/2010, 5:44 PM
"Yes it takes a bit of careful work from a lot of users, isn't that in part what we're here for."

Absolutely true.... but it can be done WITHOUT the rather childish dramatics in the opening post. All SCS needs to do is read the rubbish at the start and that's where they'll stop. Meanwhile... all the hard work by others goes unnoticed.
Rob Franks wrote on 6/11/2010, 5:47 PM
"From my test and reading others results I can draw one very broad and simplistic conclusion. Running the 32bit version of Vegas 9 under a 32bit OS produces the least problems. I can load all 35 files with no real issue."

And I (as well as a few others) can't do this without the file mods... so what makes the difference
farss wrote on 6/11/2010, 6:00 PM
"And I (as well as a few others) can't do this without the file mods... so what makes the difference "

That's a darn good question.
I should mention I'm running XP 32bit SP1, I tried to upgrade to SP3 but the OS hung on boot. I waited 30 minutes and gave up and reverted back to SP1.
I also have quite a few background processes running such as MacDrive, bits and pieces from Google and Acronis etc. Terminating them made no difference. No antivirus software running. I have tested my RAM for several hours, it is rock solid.
At one point around 6 months ago I did a complete uninstall of ALL SCS code including cleaning the registry. At the time it did not fix the specific issue I was having but maybe, just maybe it does have something to do with my experience with this one.

Bob.

Rob Franks wrote on 6/11/2010, 8:13 PM
I'm running win 7 64 bit so that may be the difference right there.
A. Grandt wrote on 6/12/2010, 12:16 AM
CClub, I updated my original reply on whether it would only affect Vegas at the same time as Lars asked again. So I had to make a separate reply.

Besides, it's Rob that first pointed out that updating his system with CCF Explorer would solve his problem, I merely figured out that Vegas 64-bit was affected by the same problem as well.

LarsHD wrote on 6/12/2010, 2:21 AM
Dear AG,

I only have Vegas Pro 64 bit version installed on my studio PC.

You mentioned three files I should modify:

1 - ' fileIOProxytStub86.dll '
2 - ' fileIOSurrogate.exe '
3 - ' QT7plug.dll '


' fileIOProxytStub86.dll ' is nowhere to be found... Is it because I don't have the 32 bit version installed?

' fileIOSurrogate.exe ' I can find, it resides in the x86 folder of Vegas (that apparently is created even when I only install the 64 bit version).

' QT7plug.dll ' resides in the 64 bit install folder ( ......\qt7plug ).


=============================

QUESTION 1: Before I start experimenting with any modification of files: is file modification the thing to do if I ONLY have the 64 bit version Vegas Pro installed? Please let me know what I should do if I only have Vegas Pro 64 installed as it appears I then have only two files to modify...

QUESTION 2: Has the person who came up with the file modification idea been in contact with SCS and communicated this? What came out of it? Did they confirm this fixed any bugs?


Best & thanks in advance
Lars
Rob Franks wrote on 6/12/2010, 2:38 AM
"' fileIOProxytStub86.dll ' is nowhere to be found... Is it because I don't have the 32 bit version installed?"

In the 64 bit version this file is known as fileIOproxyStub64.dll but you don't have to do that one... it's already flagged as greater than 2gig. so you should only need to do the other 2.
LarsHD wrote on 6/12/2010, 2:41 AM
Thanks Rob. I will try that. Are all the iinstructions on how to do this on that link to the CCF etc?
Lars
Rob Franks wrote on 6/12/2010, 2:43 AM
"QUESTION 1: Before I start experimenting with any modification of files: is file modification the thing to do if I ONLY have the 64 bit version Vegas Pro installed? Please let me know what I should do if I only have Vegas Pro 64 installed as it appears I then have only two files to modify..."'

I have not tried it on the 64 bit version yet... just the 32 bit version.



"QUESTION 2: Has the person who came up with the file modification idea been in contact with SCS and communicated this? What came out of it? Did they confirm this fixed any bugs?"

No SCS has not been in contact with me... and furthermore I have no interest in working with these files at this time. This work around was developed purely as a result of your test above.
Rob Franks wrote on 6/12/2010, 2:46 AM
"Thanks Rob. I will try that. Are all the iinstructions on how to do this on that link to the CCF etc?"

Yes. In the above Sony link you will find instructions on how to modify a file and a link to the CCF download
LarsHD wrote on 6/12/2010, 3:05 AM
OK Rob, I will read that CCF post/link and try to do this on my 64 bit system. Back here in 30 minutes perhaps...
Lars

LarsHD wrote on 6/12/2010, 3:12 AM
Rob,

EXCELLENT!

Thanks very much for focusing on the issue here!

I modified the surrogate and qtplug. I allowed these two files to use more than 2GB in the CCF editor.

(Seemed like a good little utility app by the way!)

So thanks Rob for your file mod recipe!

Thanks!

==============================================

RESULT:

It now loaded all 35 MOV files without a problem.
Wasn't possible before the mod.

No colored clips.
Always got colored clips when loaded 35 MOVs before the mod.

I could scrub (with Vegas' usual sluggishness...)
Wasn't possible before the mod.

I could save and reopen the project.
Wasn't possible befor the mod due to crash.

All files could be viewed in teh preview
Wasn't possible before

I could also load file by file one by one now
Before it started getting ugly at around 20 or so

Playback still is lousy compared to PP CS5
But playback a few frames/sec *better* than before the mod

============================================


QUESTIONS:

So perhaps this will make encoding MOV to MXF safe and error free now?

Affecting other things in a good way?

Any drawbacks?

===========================================
Why hasn't SONY done this? I complained about this around 18 months ago... ( = several versions back...).

And why do they write in the support feedback what they did...? And why didn't THEY suggest this fix?
===========================================


Summing up:

Sticking to solving and identifying one particular issue can be useful and rewarding. Thanks to those of you who were creative, friendly and helpful here!

Wishing you a nice weekend!
Lars


=======================================
PS. WHAT exactly is * fileIOSurrogate.exe " doing for Vegas? If this file plays a central role in the way Vegas Pro 64 bit version is functioning and this file isn't interacting properly with the 64 bit environment and my 8 gb of ram, then I wonder....? What *IS* this file and why was is set to operate below the 2 gb limit?
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