Vegas and rendering :( fed up. Again.

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FrigidNDEditing wrote on 6/10/2010, 10:07 PM
I loaded up all 35 and played and didn't crash, and saved, and closed, and re-opened, and played again. Poor framerate, and after I tabbed out of it to observe memory and check stuff in the web browser ( I had a ton of other stuff running... Photoshop, FireFox, Outlook, etc... etc... etc... ). I did start seeing red frames show up in preview, but didn't render to see if they caused problems with output, but this is why I suggest Epic ( which is now going to be running 64bit if it's not already ).

I will say however that he's right, it causes problems, and while we are all aware the QT for PC isn't a lovely experience, others have made it work well, and so it isn't unfair to expect the same from Vegas. There are, however, workarounds, and many editors have utilized workarounds many times in the past with all different software solutions, so I don't think it's unheard of to be willing to use workarounds.

Dave
LarsHD wrote on 6/10/2010, 11:24 PM
Looking forward to more real test results.

Don't worry about how Vegas is actually running these MOV files, we'll take that later. This test was just an initial test where we can define what is really happening when we do exactly what I listed in me test recipe.

We should not contaminate the results by talking a lot about *other* aspects... Let us just - as many as possible of us - do the test and share the results.

So I'm looking forward for more tests. Thans so much to those of you who participated.

John Cline and others, please do the 35 MOVs tests too. This test and some other nice ones I have coming will serve the product developement of Vegas even more than the "where do you live" thead ;)

Again, when doing the test, do NOT have "ton of other stuff going" etc. on your PC. And be observant on all details. Does the colored clip actually contain info? Does Vegas show video for all clips? When it crashes how do you end Vegas? It is easy to set up a scenario so that afterwards it sound like "ell I had so much stuff going so maybe that's what cause it not to work etc..."

See what I mean? Don't be afraid to report exactly what happens all the way. Steve Jobs isn't going to come and bark at you if you say that it crashed etc. And despite your previous 100% crash free life - please reprt honestly... ;) It's much better to be realistic here.

Best and thanks so much in advance for participating,
Lars
farss wrote on 6/11/2010, 3:17 AM
Running V9.0e with 2GB of RAM, Win XP.
Thumbnails set to head/mid/tail, Preview RAM at 1GB
All clips loaded onto T/L OK.
Thumbnails seem OK. Playback at Best/Full is only several fps.
Reducing Preview to Preview/Auto makes very little difference. Many frames display as red, green or black. I noticed many frames decoding as black even jogging along the T/L

RAM usage climbs during playback. Pretty obvious it would soon hit 2GB and crash. Changed Preview RAM to 0MB. and tried again.
Playback performance is around the same as before. RAM usasge by Vegas continues to rise as before but from a much lower base, would take a very long time to get to a crash.
Halting playback does not free RAM. If Vegas looses focus it does free RAM.

Bob.
Rob Franks wrote on 6/11/2010, 4:39 AM
"OK guys, here's TEST #1. I found it isn't necessary to upload huge amounts. You can download a file from dpreview and simply copy that a number of times :) So time saved. Let's go:"

I have never had a problem with TSmuxeR breaking down MOV files. However it refuses to break down 5D2_BRIGHT.MOV

I would suggest that there is something wrong with the file itself.... or maybe even the way the qucktime codec is interpreting it.

EDIT: I just checked to see if TSmuxeR is working and can open other H.264 based mov files. It works fine.
John_Cline wrote on 6/11/2010, 7:18 AM
"John Cline and others, please do the 35 MOVs tests too. This test and some other nice ones I have coming will serve the product developement of Vegas even more than the "where do you live" thead ;)"

I have actual work to do and don't have the time to play with your tests and support your personal vendetta against Vegas. You're just attempting to prove to the forum members that Vegas is the piece of junk that you say it is. I have no need to do that since Vegas works perfectly well for me. I'm in Vegas for 8 hours or more every day including most weekends. I get files in all kinds of different formats including MOV. As I have already stated, I transcode all MOV files. If I place an MOV on the Vegas timeline I fully expect it to act strange. QuickTime has proven to be very unreliable and there is no telling when the latest version of QT will break something as happened just recently when Apple decided to make a change and forced everyone to issue patches for their software.
LarsHD wrote on 6/11/2010, 7:47 AM
John: QuickTime has proven to be very unreliable and there is no telling when the latest version of QT will break something as happened just recently when Apple decided to make a change and forced everyone to issue patches for their software.

Lars: Thanks for your kind reply John. I understand this is very emotional for you John. But let's look at things from the technical side and be positive. Sure, it's not nice when stuff isn't working, but we shouldn't get unfriendly just because of some computer code... ;)

Yes I understand Vegas has problems with MOV files. But how come Premiere Pro doesn't have any problems with the MOV files? Same PC. Same QT. What's your explanation here?

Vegas simply isn't able to handle the MOV files correctly.

If you had seen how well it works in Premiere Pro and in Avid it becomes really difficult to blame QT and Apple for the crashes and poor performance in Vegas.

Would it be possible for you to run this little test you think? It would be intersting and useful to hears what exactly happens when you run it.

Best,
Lars

farss wrote on 6/11/2010, 8:12 AM
I would add that your test file plays OK in Ppro CS3. Frame rate not much better than V9.0e but no red/green/black frames.
In fact until Vegas was "patched" in V9.0e all I had that'd play and render certain .mov files correctly was that years old copy of Ppro.

Bob.
LarsHD wrote on 6/11/2010, 8:40 AM
Thanks Bob. Yes it seems that even the old CS3 handles the MOV files without breaking apart or causing drama... Still as you say, with a low frame rate.

I'm using several NLE's. Having used Vegas for some time it really isn't easy to just switch NLE. WIth many old projects and clients requesting versions I'd really appreciate if the product I have invested in - Vegas - worked better.

OK, so it appears as if the crashes etc. when handling MOV files are more linked to Vegas rather than QT or Apple.

the new Avid MC5 handles the MOVs directly and plays them back at full frame rate (the "AMA" stuff).

Scrubbing MOVs and playing MOV 5D2 files during dissolves seems to be something that PPro CS5still does better with the Merc.engine etc.



Rob Franks wrote on 6/11/2010, 10:08 AM
"Now please:

All of this confirmed and working
Just needed a few tweeks...
(I'm working with Vegas 32 bit... I have not as of yet tried this with 64)

Use CFFexplorer (you can find it and instructions in the blink3times repair in this thread:
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=648152

But instead flag the following files for greater than 2gig:

Vegas90.exe
fileIOProxytStub86.dll
fileIOSurrogate.exe
QT7plug.dll (in the QT7 folder in fileIOplugs)

Before this I could only open up to 19 of the mov files. Anything more then I would basically hang. After the tweeks I can now open all 35 files on the time line, save, close, then re-open.
CClub wrote on 6/11/2010, 10:12 AM
I vacillate between hoping everyone ignores Lars' posts and having his continual posts feel like an apple peel stuck between my teeth until I can get home and floss it out. But seeing as how hardly anyone is catching onto his game except John Cline, I just can't help myself. Other people actually come to this forum looking for real help, and they think that he's one of them, so I think that -- even if he ignores those opposed to his postings -- it makes me feel much, much better just informing the newer people on the forum that he's playing a game, and hopefully people catch on.

So I don't expect Lars to respond to this, but for others reading this, LARS IS PLAYING A GAME WITH YOU, AND I WOULDN'T WASTE YOUR TIME. IF YOU SPEND THE TIME FIXING THIS ISSUE, HE WILL FIND ANOTHER ONE, UNTIL YOU SAY UNCLE AND HATE VEGAS AS MUCH AS HE DOES.

Lars quote: "Yes I understand Vegas has problems with MOV files....Vegas simply isn't able to handle the MOV files correctly." Lars has been told this, he acknowledges this, yet he wants you to help him prove how bad Vegas really is because it has problems with MOV. He doesn't have the time to try out another system like people have recommended OVER AND OVER, yet he has the audacity to ask you to download his files and prove his point. He doesn't have the time to use an intermediate like Cineform that he's been informed would allow him to easily edit within Vegas OVER AND OVER, yet he wants you to work with him proving again that MOV files don't work well in Vegas.

(aaah, feels great... like the floss just took out the peel).
Rob Franks wrote on 6/11/2010, 10:30 AM
"LARS IS PLAYING A GAME WITH YOU, AND I WOULDN'T WASTE YOUR TIME."

Yes, that's one way to look at it. Me... I have a great distaste for those who do nothing but belly-ache and do little about it. If we all do Lars's homework and research for him then we won't have to hear as much of the belly-aching.
A. Grandt wrote on 6/11/2010, 10:39 AM
On Vegas 64-bit the first two are in the x86 folder in the Vegas installation, all three are 32-bit and limited to 2GB

fileIOProxytStub86.dll
fileIOSurrogate.exe
QT7plug.dll

Modifying these 3 files enabled my Vegas 9 64-bit to load and reload the files, no black or red screens, moderate framerate on the preview. Load is a bit on the slow side, but restarting Vegas the load time was very swift. It uses a about 1.5GB while Vegas has focus, this may be one of the performance issues, as if another application takes focus, Vegas offlines all media and releases the 1.5GB, meaning it has to reload that once it regains focus.

Where can I tell Vegas to keep media online even if it loses focus?

Personally I think it's the qt7plug.dll SCS REALLY need to have a look at, though I'm a bit disappointed at the number of dll's in 64-bit Vegas that are still 32-bit, and limited to 2gb.
LarsHD wrote on 6/11/2010, 10:49 AM
Here's what happens when I do this test:

Dropping all 35 files at once on the timeline in Vegas on my PC results in:

a) the last 3-11 files/clips getting colored
b) I cannot play the project
c) I have to task manager myself out

If I load clip my clip the project one-by-one they will stay "live" and "playable" until I reach around 23 MOVs on the time line. Then the 24th clip will only show the audio waveform but no video. And it will crash Vegas. TM only way out.

Video preview is default at 350 MB. I have tried at 0 mb, tried at around 50 mb and tried at around 4 gb. Still crash.

-------------------------------------------------------

If I drop around 50 clips in Premiere everything works.
If I use Avid MC5 trial I can also AMA 50 clips in the bin and to the timeline.

If I play the MOV files directly with Windows media Player they play back smoothly.

--------------------------------------------------------

It seems like some of you guys are experiencing crashes and some not.

It also seems that the 32 bit version of Vegas in Windows XP is capable of loading the clips.

Why are we seeing different results?

Is W 7-64 not suitable?

===================================================

Or perhaps the truth is:

Vegas simply cannot handle MOV files from the 5D2 camera?

(Due to bad code / not intended to handle it or a few bugs or something?)

===================================================


It is very difficulty for me to understand why criticism about MOV performance / crashes is sturring up emotions here? What do you gain by NOT exposing the current weaknesses in Vegas? This *IS* a weakness.

If you are working with 5D cameras it is really useful with a NLE that can handle the files. It is also useful when the NLE isn't crashing or displaying nothingness events...

==========================================
OK, seems the interest for testing and tech talk this is low. The interest in pretending it is Apple's fault is higher... ;)
==========================================

Best
Lars
CClub wrote on 6/11/2010, 10:56 AM
LARS IS PLAYING A GAME WITH YOU, AND I WOULDN'T WASTE YOUR TIME. IF YOU SPEND THE TIME FIXING THIS ISSUE, HE WILL FIND ANOTHER ONE, UNTIL YOU SAY UNCLE AND HATE VEGAS AS MUCH AS HE DOES.

(for my full post on this opinion, see my post up a few).
LarsHD wrote on 6/11/2010, 11:03 AM
"On Vegas 64-bit the first two are in the x86 folder in the Vegas installation, all three are 32-bit and limited to 2GB

fileIOProxytStub86.dll
fileIOSurrogate.exe
QT7plug.dll

Modifying these 3 files enabled my Vegas 9 64-bit to load and reload the files, no black or red screens, moderate framerate on the preview. Load is a bit on the slow side, but restarting Vegas the load time was very swift. It uses a about 1.5GB while Vegas has focus, this may be one of the performance issues, as if another application takes focus, Vegas offlines all media and releases the 1.5GB, meaning it has to reload that once it regains focus.

Where can I tell Vegas to keep media online even if it loses focus?

Personally I think it's the qt7plug.dll SCS REALLY need to have a look at, though I'm a bit disappointed at the number of dll's in 64-bit Vegas that are still 32-bit, and limited to 2gb."


============================================

"Modifying these 3 files enabled"


How do I "modify" these files to achive better stability? Maybe I've missed something here`Does modifying this affect other things on my PC? Or is it a Vegas fix only?


Best and thanks in advance,
Lars


Rob Franks wrote on 6/11/2010, 11:03 AM
"Here's what happens when I do this test:

I get the same IF I click on the project file to open Vegas. However I get a FULLY OPERATIONAL project if I open Vegas then open the project from within vegas.

(this is all AFTER applying the tweeks)
Rob Franks wrote on 6/11/2010, 11:08 AM
"How do I "modify" these files to achive better stability? Maybe I've missed something here`Does modifying this affect other things on my PC? Or is it a Vegas fix only?"

See my above post. (third one up from this one)
A. Grandt wrote on 6/11/2010, 11:08 AM
Lars, as to how I edited the files: I followed the idea in Rob's post about CCF Explorer:


Use CFFexplorer (you can find it and instructions in the blink3times repair in this thread:

As always, make a backup of the three files in question. And you might need to run CCF Explorer in Administrator mode, and open the files from it's files menu. I was unable to save the file if I did not.

And this fix is affecting Vegas only, and only the version whose files you modify.
LarsHD wrote on 6/11/2010, 11:09 AM
Cclub: " IF YOU SPEND THE TIME FIXING THIS ISSUE, HE WILL FIND ANOTHER ONE"


Lars: This is very true. This is how products get better. The SCS team don't produce better products by reading posts about the weather etc. They get better when the weak spots are exposed and debated.

So if we continue to work like this Vegas will get better and better and perhaps comparable in performance with other NLE's soon.

Finding new issues and targeting weak spots and exchanging test scenarios is something I highly recommend! And it can be fun too.

Cheer up CClub.


Lars
LarsHD wrote on 6/11/2010, 11:14 AM
Lars, as to how I edited the files: I followed the idea in Rob's post about CCF Explorer:


Use CFFexplorer (you can find it and instructions in the blink3times repair in this thread:
www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=648152


As always, make a backup of the three files in question. And you might need to run CCF Explorer in Administrator mode, and open the files from it's files menu. I was unable to save the file if I did not.

==========================


Hi A.G.

Thanks! Will this affect anything else on my machine or is this only linked to Vegas?

Is it SCS that has released this fix/mod? What's their take on this?

Lars

CClub wrote on 6/11/2010, 11:18 AM
I vacillate between hoping everyone ignores Lars' posts and having his continual posts feel like an apple peel stuck between my teeth until I can get home and floss it out. But seeing as how hardly anyone is catching onto his game except John Cline, I just can't help myself. Other people actually come to this forum looking for real help, and they think that he's one of them, so I think that -- even if he ignores those opposed to his postings -- it makes me feel much, much better just informing the newer people on the forum that he's playing a game, and hopefully people catch on.

So I don't expect Lars to respond to this, but for others reading this, LARS IS PLAYING A GAME WITH YOU, AND I WOULDN'T WASTE YOUR TIME. IF YOU SPEND THE TIME FIXING THIS ISSUE, HE WILL FIND ANOTHER ONE, UNTIL YOU SAY UNCLE AND HATE VEGAS AS MUCH AS HE DOES.

Lars quote: "Yes I understand Vegas has problems with MOV files....Vegas simply isn't able to handle the MOV files correctly." Lars has been told this, he acknowledges this, yet he wants you to help him prove how bad Vegas really is because it has problems with MOV. He doesn't have the time to try out another system like people have recommended OVER AND OVER, yet he has the audacity to ask you to download his files and prove his point. He doesn't have the time to use an intermediate like Cineform that he's been informed would allow him to easily edit within Vegas OVER AND OVER, yet he wants you to work with him proving again that MOV files don't work well in Vegas.

(aaah, feels great... like the floss just took out the peel).
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 6/11/2010, 11:32 AM
Lars all things worked for me, My RAM consumption went up and stayed at 896 MB approx. Never crossed 900MB, stopped, started, stopped started, selected clips on the T/L all of that, and that WAS with a ton of other stuff running.

I have to say you're being a bit of an *ss here, and I'm very very rarely vulgar, but I don't have another word for it really. You're snide/snarky comments to John Cline, and directly following my post are both unnecessary, and unappreciated.

Talking about possible solutions is in no way contaminating anything, and giving specifics of how and when problems occurred is only adding to your request, not detracting from it. (unless of course you don't want all the information, and only the information that supports some purpose of yours rather than narrowing down a bug)

------
Lars:
"And despite your previous 100% crash free life - please report honestly... ;) It's much better to be realistic here."
------

And to suggest that someone who takes the time to try and help you and any other potential person isn't being honest if they don't crash, etc... is absolutely absurd, and insulting.

I'm done trying to help a person who doesn't appreciate or accept help, and suggests lies are being told. I'm about this close to reporting you for the snide/snarky comments you are making to people on this forum also, so perhaps you need to take your sarcasm down a notch or 10.

Dave
A. Grandt wrote on 6/11/2010, 11:34 AM
Lars, the fix is affecting Vagas only, and then only the version you modify. SCS have not made any statements on this to the best of my knowledge.
A. Grandt wrote on 6/11/2010, 11:36 AM
CClub. Please stop repeating yourself, it's not helping your position.