VU-1 wrote on 4/10/2002, 1:10 PM
Seeing as how they are really the same thing......

......Sonic Foundry should consider changing the name of Vegas Video back to just Sonic Foundry Vegas. (Here we go again...)

Vocalpoint wrote on 4/10/2002, 1:47 PM
I agree. The new choice of name for this app is brutal. I have been a "Vegas" user for 3 years and while I am well versed as far as the app handling both audio and video very well, all I see from new prospective customers are non stop questions like "Does Vegas Video have any audio functions?" Then a Sonic Foundry rep will pipe up to quickly "sell" the audio virtues of VV3 which probably leaves the poor prospect just as confused as before.

Other apps out there do not draw a line with a name like Vegas Video. You don't see "Nuendo Video" or "Cubase Audio" do ya?

FYI - I found out about how great Vegas was when it was still called Vegas (1.0) No confusion on my end. I say call this app "Vegas" and promote all it's great functions instead of focusing just on the video components.

Cuzin B
Sari wrote on 4/10/2002, 2:11 PM
After scoring and recording the music for a film on VV3.0a, I went to the biggest film and audio post studio in town to mix in 5.1 on a protools 5.1 system with the hotest engineers in Montreal.

They have Vegas Video 3.0a, and have been using it for for video editing. They had NO IDEA WHATSOEVER that it can also be used for audio recording and mixing.

They were really impressed that I did it all on VV3.0a and decided to start doing most of their audio recording for video clips on VV3.0a.

Should tell you something about the state of affairs.

Chienworks wrote on 4/10/2002, 2:12 PM
Vegas Audio 2.0 was upgraded ... to Vegas 3.0, and now Vegas 3.0a. There just aren't separate audio/video versions marketed anymore.
Vocalpoint wrote on 4/10/2002, 2:29 PM

Not separate versions marketed? What name is on the front of the "Vegas Video 3.0" Box then? Sure looks like SF are aiming some "not so subtle" marketing to the video crowd to me....

Cuzin B
Chienworks wrote on 4/10/2002, 2:36 PM
Cuzin B, exactly. There aren't separate versions anymore. There's just the one version. But it's still the upgrade to Vegas Audio 2.
Vocalpoint wrote on 4/10/2002, 3:13 PM

Either I am missing your anagle or I think you need to re-read your post. There most certainly is a separate and (unfortunately singular)version - called Vegas Video. Are you not aware of the confusion that this nametag has for audio only users? They feel like they have been left in the lurch (I know the feeling - I am one of them). Check out the earlier thread in here about the huge studio who didn't even know the audio was available to them...this is good marketing?

SF should be worried if large studios can't tell what their application is capable of.

Cuzin B
Chienworks wrote on 4/10/2002, 3:25 PM
Cuzin B, what do you mean by separate? To me, separate versions would be more than one version. There is only one version now, so there aren't separate versions.
SHTUNOT wrote on 4/10/2002, 4:05 PM
Don't laugh but IMHO I feel that ACID 4 needs to take up the slack in the audio department. If sofo wants Vegas to be a video king of the hill...go up against adobe premier/FCP/etc... then fine! Then focus ALL your efforts into making acid the VA3 that we should have gotten!!! All the stuff that we audio freaks have been cryin' about should be outdone in its next release. I want everyone at cubase/logic/sonar/ be literally shacken that sofo finally took acid seriously. I said this in the acid forums that if you go and check out the sonar web page they blatantly boast how much better their acid tech is than ours...DIDN'T WE SELL THEM THAT?????????? Then why are some IF NOT ALL of the acid type features in sonar not in Acid 3? HMMMMMM...I feel that sofo F@ckedup when they released acid 3. Poor midi...crackles and pops...etc... For all its good it could have totally decapitated cubase 5 if they added full midi sequencing and VA2 features. Cubase had version 5 out and it SUCKED HARDER THAN TRACY LORDS! It took them till 5.1 r2 to get it right...almost. That was a missed opportunity at increasing sofo's market share of audio. Instead we get a freakin' video editor...<SIGH> I seriously doubt that Steinberg will let their guard down again any time soon. So many people who use cubase use acid in conjunction with it...many have BEGGED for its features to be included in the next version. How sweet would it be if they all were able to upgrade their version of acid to something as killer as ACID 4 on audio crack! HMMM...upgrade cubase which I don't fully utilize[and can't stand all the bugs] or ACID 4 on crack![so to speak]

Either make acid audio king, vegas video queen, or add rewire support so that they could distribute the features fairly between the two and have them BOTH open at the same time so that you can get EACH's FULL potential!!!

my .02cents. Later.
SHTUNOT wrote on 4/10/2002, 4:10 PM
What can I say...
I can see the marketing department "buzzing" right about now...enough ranting,back to work.
tserface wrote on 4/10/2002, 4:16 PM
That's a lot of aliteration... Although, to be fair, the Acid interface could work for an extende audio product.
VOGuy wrote on 4/10/2002, 7:17 PM
The solution is simple. Market two products - Vegas Video 3.0, which Includes Vegas Audio 3.0 FREE!. - And Vegas Audio 3.0, which includes Vegas Video FREE! To save manufacturing costs, the products should be packaged in one box, with the cover displaying "Vegas Video" on the front and "Vegas Video" on the back. (Turn the box over to select the product you want.)

Vocalpoint wrote on 4/11/2002, 9:53 AM

Last time I looked, "separate" meant:

Main Entry: sep.a.rate
Pronunciation: 'se-p(&-)"rAt
Function: verb

1 a : to set or keep apart : DISCONNECT, SEVER b : to make a distinction between : DISCRIMINATE, DISTINGUISH c : SORT d : to disperse in space or time : SCATTER

Example: Sonic Foundry has created a new "separate" version of Vegas called Vegas Video 3. This version, with it's cloudy marketing and obvious "video" targeting has begun to SEVER and DISCONNECT those who used Vegas Audio 2 due to the company's inability to properly DISTINGUISH either by packaging or by design between it's use in video editing or audio editing.

2 archaic : to set aside for a special purpose : CHOOSE, DEDICATE

Example: Sonic Foundry as a company CHOOSE to DEDICATE a very large part of this upgrade to the video segment of their user base instead of at least considering the very long list of enhancements submitted by it's audio user base.

3 : to part by a legal separation: a : to sever conjugal ties with b : to sever contractual relations with : DISCHARGE

Example: Since the arrival of the Vegas Video 3.0 upgrade, Sonic Foundry has effectively chosen to DISCHARGE the audio users permanently by removing any Vegas Audio 2.0 downloads from their website.

4 : to block off : SEGREGATE

Example: With this Vegas Video upgrade, even with the barely noticable audio enhancements, Sonic Foundry has effectively chosen to SEGREGATE their audio user base into a state of confusion and done probable damage to those users goodwill by wiping out a version of the software the catered specifically to the audio crowd without the additional overhead (and cost) of a video upgrade.

So ends the lesson.

Cuzin B

drbam wrote on 4/11/2002, 10:14 AM
I agree. Regardless of SoFo's explaination as to how they aren't leaving audio behind, the real "test" of this, in my opinion, is the fact that Acid has not been integrated into Vegas which is just incomprehensible! The marketing issue is clearly a "no brainer." If I hadn't been using VA from its beginnings, there would be no way to know that I would currently know about the audio application, or that it in fact still exists, unless of course one were to read the fine print or what I refer to as "oh by the way . . . we have a nice multitrack audio program too which we are fully committed to." They should fire whoever did the "marketing analysis" on that one! Anyway, it reminds me of a line in a movie which went "are you going to believe what you see or what I (we) tell you?"

Since I'm familiar with Vegas and in most ways, I really like it, in a few months (after completing some existing projects) I'll probably be looking at Sonar, primarily because of its slick integration and other features Vegas should have included by now. Oh well . . . ;-(

Rockitglider wrote on 4/11/2002, 10:17 AM

How about this for a box title: Sonic Foundry Vegas
Mutimedia, Video, & Multitrack
Audio Solution.

See ya, Rockit
Chienworks wrote on 4/11/2002, 10:20 AM
CuzinB, i believe you're splitting hairs and assigning your own feelings to the matter. Vegas 2.0 had separate versions: audio only, video + audio, and audio LE. Vegas 3.0 has a single unified version, video + audio. Therefore there are no separate versions of 3.0. As ttravis put it so nicely, if you want Vegas Audio 3.0, buy Vegas 3.0 and you've got it. Hey, it's even cheaper than Vegas Audio 2.0 was!
Vocalpoint wrote on 4/11/2002, 10:30 AM

You are not alone here. I am just going to stay with VA 2.0 since I get exactly what I need from it. Many are moving to other products and I can't believe that SF actually sat in their marketing meetings and thought that this single version named Vegas Video would not create confusion.

SF were cruising along just fine with the 2 distinct versions and as a loyal fan of their products, this move just blew me away. Unfortunately for SF, this poor marketing decision also made me put my wallet away after I read all that "fine print" on the 3 or 4 audio enhancements. I won't spend the money (a sizable amount here in Canada) for a master fader (Wow - what a development!) and red book CD burning (which I can get anywhere with other apps that do it faster,better and way cheaper).

I feel that simple economics will win out over time. When SF checks the cash flow and notices people falling away, they might think about doing soemthing about it.

This Vegas Video release(and it's goofy marketing) is the same as an auto dealer saying "This is the best truck you will ever drive (but it also functions as a car!)"

Cuzin B
Vocalpoint wrote on 4/11/2002, 10:40 AM

I apologize for my "soapbox" stand here, but if you really think anyone working in straight audio is going to shell out the bucks for the very small handful of audio enhancements in 3.0 , you are crazy.

On the other hand - if video is your thing - 3.0 looks real cool.

I just don't understand SF and their long term plans. You have to admit, when they start pulling all ties to Vegas Audio off the website and product boxes, you have to think as a audio user, that Vegas is rapidly a dying breed for us audio only users. And what about all the cool audio enhancements we have been asking for? We get 3 enhancements and the video crowd gets 110? Maybe if SF would have made a little more effort to serve up some better stuff (like a real mixer!), folks wouldn't be so pissed.

I sit back and look at Sonar, Cubase SX, Nuendo (wicked app), Samplitude etc... and wonder if SF wants to really be a player or have they lost the edge...

Cuzin B

SHTUNOT wrote on 4/11/2002, 2:22 PM
-but if you really think anyone working in straight audio is going to shell out the bucks for the very small handful of audio enhancements in 3.0 , you are crazy.

I agree totally. I remember trying to sell the idea of picking up vegas video 3 to a engineer friend of mine. I told him that the next update of VV will have more audio updates since we all complained. He said "how much of an audio upgrade will it have with VIDEO in the main header of the name". He's looking into cubase SX and sonar 2.0 right now.

I can sort of understand why VV3 got the audio update that it did. Basically they spent 85% of r&d on video...15% on smoothing out any remaining probs with the audio. VV3 got one HELL of an upgrade. But let me ask you this. Does your gut "really" tell you that the next audio upgrade will be worth it? Seriously.
Not to be negative about it but adobe premier is around the corner of releasing their next update. To be able to keep up with adobe[which costs alot more hence has greater resources for r&d for VIDEO] VV4 will have to at least suck 85% of the next r&d budget. If not more. With cheesy 3rd party support of video plugins sofo is going to have to develop them themselves...The first of which has been released and can be viewed on the products page. Not good.
The only area that sofo has to offer us audio guys is acid. Take the technology from the audio portion[guts] of VV3[which is great],slap on acid features[ie:sonar],and then add all the extra advancments that Vegas audio/acid users have been crying about[ie:midi,DX8 automation,DXi's,etc...]
Budget wise your looking at whatever revenue acid products brought in+the 15% from VV4 r&d[audio]. Plus your working with a great foundation to begin with which will give you a head start at catching your prey.[ie: cubase,sonar,logic etc users]
Plus strategically acid has a better shot at grabbing everyone else's core user base because nearly everyone owns a copy of acid. Or at least nows of someone swearing up and down over it. Or even a cracked copy of it[not to say thats good,just making a point].
So in a strategic way Sofo acid has slipped under everyones radar and if released to its fullest potential would take a giant bite out of everyone else's pie. I've said this before...If you owned cubase/logic etc...and of course owned an loved acid and found out of a MAJOR update of which I'm talking about. Which would you update first...especially with a introductory offer of $199 and $149 upgrade for current users[just like Vegas Video 3 did!]
Theirs plenty of evidence of code sharing between all sofo products the most blatant of which is the dockable windows that soundforge 6 got...VV3 anyone. Or how about the AMAZING MASTER FADER which first surfaced in acid pro 3[among other features,I'm just trying to stay recent]. So saying that adding any real multitracking features to acid IMHO is totally Bullsh!t!!! Actually I was hopeing for acid integration in VV3 but what happened? They sold cakewalk the new acid tech and gave us the left overs so that sonar would look so much better than acid 3. Especially Vegas Audio 2+3.
I'll be keeping an eye out for any "competitive upgrades" for sonar just in case things don't go the way I hoped. Anyone found any?
Keeping my fingers crossed still. Later.
HeeHee wrote on 4/11/2002, 4:04 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Sound Forge SoFo's preffered Audio Editing Family? If you look at their main media web page, they market the packages by Audio Editing (Sound Forge, Noise Reduction, etc), Music Creation (Acid Pro, Loops, etc), and Video Editing (Vegas Video, VF, etc). My take on Vegas Audio 2.0 is that it was a slimmed down version of Vegas Video 2.0, meaning that it had all the audio capability as VV2, but only 1 video track among other stripped capabilities.

Sound Forge 6.0 is coming out soon, give it a try!
falz wrote on 4/11/2002, 4:15 PM
It is my understanding that many many years ago, when vegas was in development that it was SUPPOSED to be a video product. I had heard of all of these lavish video features, realtime effects, etc etc. This is in the days of Premiere 4.1, and all of these things sounded magical.

It seems that to get a product out the door, Vegas AUDIO was released. Now several years later, Vegas Video exists, and does all of the magical things that were intended years ago. Thank you Moore's Law!

Anyhow, perhaps Sonic Foundry is now going back to what they had intended all along- vegas VIDEO.
HeeHee wrote on 4/11/2002, 4:40 PM
Did some research. Sound Forge can't exactly replace VA2. It can only do two tracks at a time.

Suggestion. Stick with VA2 if you are strictly audio and wait until they improve Sound Forge or give VVx more audio options. Maybe they should have call Vegas Video, Vegas Multimedia.
Vocalpoint wrote on 4/11/2002, 4:41 PM

SoundForge is excellent(Version 6 looks a like winner) long as editing a single track is your thing. However Vegas is multitrack. I wish Vegas had the upgrade that SoundForge will get shortly.

Cuzin B
HeeHee wrote on 4/11/2002, 4:50 PM

I found that out a little after I posted my comment. I think they should just stick with the Sound Forge app and move the Vegas Audio stuff over to it.