Will be considered and discussed...no promises.

Peter

Realtime inserts means on recording?
"auto input" means?

Sidechaining would be nice. Unfortunately there is no defined and consistant way to do this with DX FX - no standard. Something that has been discussed.

Peter

IF SF *does* abandon Vegas audio...I'm-a-gonna-be-PISSED! I was one of those idiots that jumped on the Vegas Audio bandwagon just after its release...based mostly on my years of positive experience with SF 3 and 4...I paid $700 for this piece of software and have sunk another $185 into the upgrade!!! But hey...at least they had a special going then that gave me XFX 1, 2, and 3 for free.

If I'm forced to go to SONAR or NUENDO at this point, I want my money back from SF. I already feel cheated as it is, after paying the $$$ I did and seeing it sell for under $300 these days.

Now, let me get back to working out all the troubles with Vegas 3 and my MOTU interface...

Pipeline,

No argument there. The routing is fine - what I was referring to in my "fat and tired" comments was obviously my own stupidity with Vegas. I was adding in a bus for every track to gain some semblance of a traditional mixer. I recognize that this is retarded and I understand fully how Vegas wants to serve up it's tracks and controls on the horizontal rather than vertical.

However, Vegas cannot be used efficiently in a 15-24 track situation with this "horizontal" layout. Clients don't like it...I don't like it. Just don't have the time to sit around and resize, move, adjust the interface every minute to accomodate a client who wants to explore a larger mix. Unless I am really missing some magical tricks here, I do not see how others could enjoy this experience either. Chienworks is going down the right trail here with his mockup of a trad mixer in Vegas (I see some great potential!)....at least consider it for a future release?

Cuzin B

OK, i'll admit to an occasional mischevious streak. I was very tempted to reply with "What mockup? Didn't you turn on the mixer tab under Options, Preferences, General?"

*sigh* but i'm not that mean.                 ;)

I was waiting for that. Actually, it was such a convincing mockup, I was thinking to myself "Is there some checkbox I am missing here?"

Overall though - this kind of thread is real good gasoline for the SF dev team. I just hope that they give this a bit of serious thought and include something in an upcoming release. I swear - this is probably the only single thing that bothers me about Vegas - the app is very dependable and I can get my work done.

My clients love the results too - they just tend to get weirded out a bit when it's mix time...you can see that "what the hell are you doing" look forming on their brows when I start resizing and moving the UI around to accomodate a request to "crank up track 23 a bit more"...that kind of stuff.

Here's to hoping for a "Mixer View" tab someday....

Cuzin B

Learn better screen management. Use shorcuts like the " F11 " key to hide the bottom dockable windows. You'll be able to see a great deal more that way. Use the mousewheel:
Ctrl+ mousewheel=scroll vertically
shift+ mousewheel= scroll horizontally
With your track area and your mousewheel acts like a horizontal zoom function making getting to a point in the timeline a snap[quicker than markers almost].
For a quicker zoom function to resize all your tracks press ctrl+shift+ up arrow/down arrows. You'll be able to resize your track view to "see everything".
You can minimize all your tracks with the ` key. Thats the one to the left of the #1 and above the tab key.
Auto scroll[cool]:press and release wheelbutton and move mouse.

There are a number of shortcuts that I use during a session that I just can't think of right now but let me assure you. I have had nothing but praise from ALL my clients on the way Vegas Video 3's audio functions/features work. Never a complaint on not having a traditional track view. I went from using cubase BTW so I know where your coming from. I fought it in the beginning as well...but once you realize the economy of it all you'll switch much easier. If they had a "tab" for the tracks and one for the busses and one for the assignable FX you'll still be scrolling to the right to see all 27-35 or so tracks as well.

Possibly you might need to group your tracks by priority a bit better. So that when a given vox or guitar piece/etc... comes up you don't shift around tooooooo much. It just sounds like a problem more with the way you work than the way vegas functions.

Do you have a normal keyboard+mouse[no trackball OR mousewheel].
Here is what I use BTW:
microsoft trackball explorer mouse: The one with the trackball on top with the mousewheel in the thumb position. You get 5 programmable buttons as well.
microsoft keyboard pro: The one that has the really HUGE spacebar in the middle and the keyboard itself is split for better ergonomics. No internet shorcuts though...just the keyboard option.
Go to the microsoft web site to see what I use...I picked mine up at comp usa.
Contour shuttle PRO: www.contourdesign.com/shuttlepro.htm...THE MOST IMPORTANT PURCHASE YET!!! 13 programmable buttons,shuttlewheel,scroll wheel. Great price at www.sharbor.com Highly recommended!!!!

With all this combined as well as knowing ALL the shorcuts off the top of your head will improve your workflow and have any size session be a breeze IMHO.

Plus you can click on a track fader and use the mousewheel to make your adjustments. Using CTRL+mousewheel makes finer adjustments[ie:smaller increments].

Honestly using VV3 and you using ANYTHING else[nuendo,cubase,etc...] I guarentee you I would STILL be quicker with my setup. Not to diss though. Just making a point for you to rethink what you said and how you might be going about a session. If I can help in any other way please ask.

Now if sofo would get moving on the next AUDIO update then all will be well. Later.

Maybe whats needed in your case is a marker type shorcut that allows you to quickly get to track 27 by clicking shift+alt+the numbers 2 then 7. That would make tracks 1-10 very accessible and the rest a second off. Or maybe groups of tracks to be shown at a time. Tracks 1-10 would be shown if you hit shift+alt and the button 1. Tracks 11-21 for shift+alt and the button 2. Etc... How about that. Of course the track view would be at the "default" track height. That way it won't matter if you have 10 or 100 tracks you'll zip to that GROUP in notime. What do you think SonicPCH?

SHTUNOT,

All valid points and I appreciate the info. Maybe I do have to learn to work with Vegas a little differently than other apps. That being said, I wish as the customer, I could have the option to either go the "Vegas" way or maybe work in a more traditional sense with a standard mixer...depending on what the situation calls for.

I just keep wondering why a product like Nuendo (which is a great deal younger than Vegas) chose a traditional route regarding their mixer interface. Almost all the pro studios that I work with have either ProTools or Nuendo while only 1 that I could find uses Vegas. I cannot comment on their selection skills or and why they chose one over the other but with a bit of investigation, one would probably find that a traditional view requires less of a learning curve and more productivity to these studios. If Vegas wants to work it's way into the bigs (NOT for a moment suggesting that it hasn't accomplished that in some areas), SF must make their product at least as easy as the other players or else no one is going to want to bother.

I just can't afford to take chances and waste time with paying clients. How do you tell your customer "I know the interface is not exactly traditional in the mixing sense but just wait til you hear the finished product blah blah" It one thing for me to get totally imersed in learning all these groovy shortcuts and F11's and all that but the client doesn't care...he just wants to crank up Track 23 and wants it now - the easiest way possible...(sigh)

Thanks again for the help and I will try my best to make a go of it.

Cheers,

Cuzin B

Yep,

I did make you repeat yourself, I just wanted all the confirmation in one post...which you just did. Thank you.
I'm not going to apologize for asking again if that's what you mean.

BTW: the reason I made the initial comment?...it is answered in all these posts with great ideas for "you and you're product".

Just a way of looking at it, but I feel the company that listens and responds to what the loyal customers have to say stands to profit (ding-ding: the forums...not some 3 day or more replied email to support).

Joed

Actions speak louder than words dude. I can run circles around the cubase/nuendo interface and do whatever,whenever, needed. Remember all tracks from 15 on in cubase or nuendos mix view still needs to be scrolled to get to them. The same way that if you place your mouse pointer over the work area and use the Ctrl+mousewheel you'd be able to make adjustments with the same speed. It still sticks in my head how this one client who recorded 3 demo hip-hop tunes in cubase with me LOVED the look,feel,stability of VV3. Not knowing that it could do video of course. When I showed him my work on this indie film he freaked!!! Its how you present yourself and how well you know your program. Because it really does come down to the final product. And I've never had someone complain that the interface made them uncomfortable. Its always the finished product that makes the clients come back again and again. Why nuendo and cubase arent seen in more studios...We could debate that forever in my opinion. We could though...in the Vegas AUDIO FORUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Auto input, I mean tape style:

If a track is armed and auto input is chosen;
while tape is stopped, input is sent straight to the output thru a hardware switch

while tape is in play mode, tape track is sent to output

while tape is in record, input is sent straight to the output thru a hardware switch

in punch in/out is the magic, tape goes to output until the punch in point, at which time the input is sent to the output, until the punch out point, where the tape is sent to the output

For ease of viewing's sake, I use dual monitors
the track view is on ALL of the right screen
the track view mixer takes up half of the left screen
the explorer window is in the top left corner of left screen
under that is the media pool
under that is the mixer window

My next upgrade...dual monitor support definately!

What card do you use? [video]

If you don't work with any heavy 3d graphics and want to go as cheap as possible... then try to find a used Matrox DH G400. I bought one for about 3 weeks ago at www.qxl.com and it works great! Fast 2D and stable drivers (with alot of tunings for monitor and stuff)... A good price is 60$ I got mine for 75$ which is ... well ... Ok .... :)

Pipeline,

Exactly the same layout I use, except reversed. Tracks on the left screen - Explorer, Trimmer and Mixer on the right. I am using a Matrox G450 and it is sweet.

Cheers,

Cuzin B

PS - SHTUNOT....I spent a good chunk of last night working with some of your tips and shortcuts and Vegas feels different already! Nice thing too is most of these shortcuts work in Acid as well.

Hey SHTUNOT,

What exactly to you use your shuttlepro for [as opposed to your trackball]. How does it speed Vegas Use?

TIA

Interesting thread! One more suggestion to get around the UI - the affordable Microsoft Sidewinder Strategic Commander. Your clients will think it's a mindlink device of some sorts, but properly mapped out it's quite versatile. The zoom keys work well for zooming the track heights, especially if you the scrollwheel on your mouse to zoom horizontally. You can reprogram buttons on the fly. I use the left-right movement to move frame-by-frame, and the twist movement to scrub (more twists = faster scrubbing).

And dual monitors are a must. I use a Radeon 8500 and it works like a charm.

-Doug

With the 13 programmable buttons I can have a bunch of "frequently used shortcuts" at my disposal. I keep my hands basically steady on either the shuttle pro[left hand] and the trackball mouse[right...5 buttons!]. For the shortcuts that I don't have programmed I have to then use the keyboard. Here is a list of my current configuration: [taken from my post from the creative cow forums www.creativecow.net]
After reading peoples reviews on this I couldn't help myself but to get it. I'm using it in win2k and VV3. I haven't tried it with any other sofo product like Acid3 or SF5. Here is a list of my button configurations:
1-4 are number buttons 1-4[not numberpad so that I may jump to markers]
5. W key...beginning of project
6. I "...marker "in point"
7. F12 "...Play back from any window
8. O "...marker "out point"
9. F11 "...screen max/min work area
10. D "...edit tool selection[forward]
11. ctrl R...record
12.shift D...edit tool selection[backward]
13. \ "...center in view

Jog left-Alt left arrow
Jog right-Alt right arrow Freq: Both once only[sync release checked]
Shuttle wheel Left/right[respectively]:1-7 Alt left/right:option 5-as fast as possible [for each step up]

To check out the shuttle pro go to: www.contourdesign.com

Idea...How about a increase/decrease track height shortcut like Shift+ctrl+Z+mousewheel!!! Good idea?