Vegas: never again

Comments

NormanPCN wrote on 3/19/2013, 5:09 PM
Your symptoms are like what I see.
There are actually two "renders". Vegas generating the video stream and the file output render. For file output only Sony AVC and Main Concept AVC has GPU support AFAIK. I have had no problems with Main Concept OpenCL working (not crashing).

Vegas has been a different matter (video prefs GPU). As I have stated it just smells like a thread race condition. These are the worst and hardest things to debugger. Harder than memory clobbers. I have even attached my debugger to Vegas and looked at locked up threads. Never tried hammering one of the threads to see if Vegas unlocks, or just force an access violation in one thread to raise an exception. I have other things to do.

I did offer support help in debugging if they could not reproduce with the project I created that fails reliably on my machine/setup.

Vegas uses OpenCL (general compute). Most everything else out there typically uses OpenGL (render, like games) for acceleration (or DirectX). For example, Photoshop started with OpenGL for the display pipeline and has added OpenCL recently for some computation algorithms. The NewBlue uses OpenGL. BorisFX uses OpenGL.

If you go OpenGL for the pipeline, then really everything needs to go there. The whole display pipeline. OpenCL can let you pick and choose which things work best on GPU and which best on CPU and mix them. Now you have things contending for and waiting for resources and more possibilities for race conditions. Most things do not map very well to GPU compute (like encoders). You can always force it.

One mans opinion...
Tom Pauncz wrote on 3/19/2013, 5:18 PM
@NormanPCN

I'd love to pick your brain off-line to see what debugger I need to attach to Vegas to shoot my single most frustrating issue with VP12.

On init it reliably shows a "Vegas has stopped working" and looking at logs, Vegas 12 blows away RPCRT4.DLL. As does VP11 and 10 both 64bit versions - the exact same error.

After multiple startup attempts they'll come up be rock solid.

TIA,
Tom
NormanPCN wrote on 3/19/2013, 6:01 PM
The debugger I used was my own. I am a compiler/debugger/development developer by trade. I can't give it out as I don't own it anymore.

Really, any debugger from any development system you are familiar with is fine. "Fine" as in you still have no symbols or source. If it is an actual crash and not a lockout you can start under the debugger and trap the exception. Not sure what that will give you, or support.

I was just curious what was running and what was waiting on the same object given the lockout I see, and there are more than one thread waiting on the same object. Potential lockout. Of course I cannot know if those are the problem thread(s) or just something else going on.

I get a lockout (my words/opinion) during preview playback. Everything is active as during "normal" playback after the lockout happens. Clicking stop, makes Vegas go unresponsive, probably because they are trying to sync and wait for all background render/play threads to finish. Meaning they wont let you press play again until all current play threads have finished. In my case, they can't finish because some have locked each other out on some sync object.

I should/could do this again and hammer one locked out thread and see if Vegas becomes responsive again. That would be another piece of evidence, but what would that mean in the real world. It does not really help Sony. It does not help me.

I will say that the UI thread should NEVER be waiting like it is on something without a timeout or something similar. Anything that takes time, or might wait indefinetly should be done in another thread and that thread can post a message to the UI thread. I have seen other things in the Vegas UI where it went unresponsive for a few seconds. e.g. the close medai file when not active preference.
Tom Pauncz wrote on 3/19/2013, 6:05 PM
Thanks NormanPCN...
NormanPCN wrote on 3/19/2013, 7:04 PM
Sorry, I can be any more help.

It sounds like your situation is pretty easy and reproducible. Hopefully, sony support will come through.

Problem is, big company corporate support, which exists as a "sea wall" to keep the bitching screaming masses away. Sad to say, that is actually a necessity, but support should be able to recognize the other end of the conversation for things where you can get something done. Problem is, front line support normally does not have that technical ability. They run from a script.

Current version, drivers, Reinstall, disable services and startup processes, etc
You/we all get the drill.
I am getting "drilled" by support now on my issue(s).
Jeff9329 wrote on 3/19/2013, 8:24 PM
This is crazy.

I dont think I have logged on in the last year. I was just coming back yet again to see if it's time to upgrade. However, it's sounding just like it did a year ago.

Very sad.

And Im still using 8 which is rock solid. But Im having to use too many work arounds to use VP8 and flv files. I guess I will wait another year.
LSBrewer wrote on 3/21/2013, 4:42 PM
Notice your reply to Lenny... "Well, in that case, I can assure you that the problem was your computer, because I ran it on a computer I had in 2010 without any trouble.. bla, bla, bla..."

While most of us still have probs with Vegas, I for one, not everyone is having the extreme issues you are having. My conclusion is that "when the problem is with a NLE program you like, blame the hardware.. When the problem is with a NLE program you don't like, blame the software"

Vegas is far from perfect. It is installed mostly on homebuilt towers with a list of accepted hardware that no one pays much attention to. If it were released with a hardware package that the software could be developed around maybe the stability would improve, but the price would be out of reach for most Vegas users. Remember Edit Station? It would also be obsolete in 6 mos as hardware continues to develop and get cheaper, better, faster. So what we end up with is an ever evolving software package, some versions more stable than others, but all are inexpensive and each one offering new features and working with a wider and wider variety of video formats and media.

Maybe get a version that works with your current hardware, stick with it. New version comes out, install it on a new build and make sure it works before you switch over cause you can't take a project back to an earlier version.
john_dennis wrote on 3/21/2013, 5:59 PM
"I was just coming back yet again to see if it's time to upgrade. However, it's sounding just like it did a year ago.

Jeff, you need to come around more frequently. There will always be someone who feels he/she is at the end of their rope. The general response to 12 was more favorable than the previous two releases.

In my opinion, the evolution of 10 and 11 were low points.
Grazie wrote on 3/21/2013, 6:48 PM
In my opinion, the evolution of 10 and 11 were low points.

Evolution, as in the precursor of the Armadillo, the Glyptodon, or the - and my totally favourite and flamboyant Therizinosaurus.

Wallace was correct . . . . .

Grazie

ushere wrote on 3/22/2013, 3:15 AM
did gromit agree? ;-)
Grazie wrote on 3/22/2013, 3:33 AM
This is that "Wallace":

Wiki : "Alfred Russel Wallace, OM, FRS (8 January 1823 – 7 November 1913) was a British naturalist, explorer, geographer, anthropologist and biologist. He is best known for independently conceiving the theory of evolution through natural selection, which prompted Charles Darwin to publish his own ideas in On the Origin of Species."

My usual, laconic, sideways take on this Vegasaurian "Survival of the Fittest" reminded me that there was a precursor to Darwin, and even an influencer of that bloke's own theories, and that was Wallace. They were alive at the same time; had converging theories and pursued/needed clarity to prove their own Evolutionary paths of survival.

Vegas is kinda similar . . . . . Just hoping we don't need another millennia to achieve GPU stability.

One thought: What would happen if the engineers got it right? Would they too become redundant? Maybe a move to iVegas would clarify this, bit like the mammals taking over from the dinos?

Cheers

Grazie

Marc S wrote on 3/22/2013, 5:21 AM
I've also found Vegas 12 to be very unstable. I came from a stable Vegas 10 environment and have used V12 with both an NVidea 8800 card and now a GTX 570 card and both are unstable. Project media with icons is a nightmare. And I can rarely switch workspace settings without Vegas freezing up. On a whim Vegas will freeze up when trimming clips. What a joke! Back to Vegas 10 which works fine on the same system. I fully expect them to release Vegas 13 before Vegas 12 is ever fixed. This company his really gone down hill and with this many successive bad versions I really doubt they will ever recover the golden days of Vegas stability (I been a user since version 3).
Burt_R wrote on 7/17/2013, 9:19 AM
Well I have had it with Vegas Pro 12.
Slow render.
Not working........ take hours to render real 3D...... I have Sony Handycam HDR-TD10..... nice ....but the software is s......t.
I have jyst received in the past 3 days update from Cyberlink Power Director 11 , and what to my surprise .... it render Real 3D ....45 minutes long , in less than 2 hrs...that include burning to BR disk.
I want my money back but no answer from them.
Well will have to make a YOUTUBE vid. and show what going on with Vegas pro 12..... " do not buy it.
Fool I am I did . Now what ........
Tech Diver wrote on 7/17/2013, 11:38 AM
@Burt_R:
It is unfortunate that you have not had success with Vegas and I understand your frustration. However, it would be entirely unjustified to condemn a product when the vast majority of us find it to be an excellent tool. Clearly there is something about your particular system/workflow that causes Vegas to choke.

I am surprised that this is only your third post and it appears to me that you have not taken full advantage of the forum community by giving us enough detailed information about your problems such that we can do proper diagnosis. You are certainly welcome to have your opinion about the product, but do not speak for the rest of us if you intend to badmouth Vegas.

Peter
David - Sightlink Media wrote on 7/18/2013, 12:07 PM
1+ Peter. I've been using Vegas for 10 years now--started with version 3. It continues to serve me well.

In fact, my enjoyment and success using Vegas has been a major reason why I continue to create video. It's a remarkable tool.

In those 10 years, I've had a variety of systems--desktops and more recently laptops. Vegas has performed well on all of them. When I've encountered a problem, I've been able to find solutions on the Web (e.g., this forum).

I'm sorry to hear that others have had frustrating problems. But bad-mouthing Vegas is neither fair nor helpful in resolving technical issues.
Dan Sherman wrote on 7/18/2013, 12:44 PM
Sony Vegas 12 working here.
Only issue is that it is rarely compatible with NB Titler Pro.
ritsmer wrote on 7/18/2013, 1:08 PM
Agree with Dan: V12 survives my hard work and experiments here each and every day for weeks without one single hiccup.

And, too: last time I simply clicked the "add"-button for the NB Titler Pro last version in a nearly finished project (250+ clips, 20 minutes) I got a "Vegas Stopped Working" within milliseconds after clicking that button :-)

No problem, however: I could make all my NB Titler Pro texts without any issues in a special sub-project and render them to Quicktime with an alpha channel for use in the main project.
The NB Titler really is an indispensable and very useful tool for me - it just seems that it is a little -say- sensitive, sometimes.