Yea, I have both Vegas Pro 12.0 and FCP X so I'd be happy to help you out in any way that I can but if she has FCP 7, I really can't help you much as I've never used that version. If you're in the NYC area we can even meet up.

Let us know how you make out.

~jr

Thanks Johnny. Just found out via E-mail that she uses FCP 7 -- I believe she has a copy of FCP-X but hates it. This does not bode well as she seems stuck in the past.

The Avid Codec for DNxHD downloads for a Mac in a zip file. The zip file contains two folders, _MACOSX and AvidCodecsLE.pkg -- Neither of these folders contain a .dmg file ..

I know nothing about Macs .. I just assumed she'd know how to load this Codec or have the correct software to load the Avid Codec on her Mac. My understanding is that installation of a QuckTime Codec is very simple on a Mac requiring nothing more than dragging and dropping the files into the /Library/QuickTime. folder on the MAc. But which files or folder?

> "Just found out via E-mail that she uses FCP 7 -- I believe she has a copy of FCP-X but hates it. This does not bode well as she seems stuck in the past. "

So... she wants to use an NLE that came out 4 years ago, was last updated 3 years ago, and discontinued 2.5 years ago? Not good.

> "The Avid Codec for DNxHD downloads for a Mac in a zip file. The zip file contains two folders, _MACOSX and AvidCodecsLE.pkg -- Neither of these folders contain a .dmg file .. "

OK they use ZIP instead of DMG. No problem. Have her double-click on the AvidCodecsLE.pkg file. That's the package installer. Once it's installed she may have to restart FCP 7 but it should work after that.

> "My understanding is that installation of a QuckTime Codec is very simple on a Mac requiring nothing more than dragging and dropping the files into the /Library/QuickTime. folder on the MAc. But which files or folder?"

It's even easier since they included a package installer. Just execute the PKG file and follow the prompts. Email me if you get into trouble.

~jr

Thanks Johnny. I'll try to get her to load the codec today ... This is worthwhile to me just to see a little bit first hand about the FCP world. .. Later today there will be a whole creative team meeting. 8 people total. I'm hoping something clear comes out of the meeting, including how the "team" editing thing can work given the problems.

Hard to imagine how it would work unless there are clear areas where each editor works, as in someone doing the talking head interviews, and the other doing things like building montages, graphic and animated art etc. I wouldn't go as far as calling your FCP editor a luddite since she still uses FCP 7. I know of no one in the broadcast world in Los Angeles at least, who was a FCP 7 house switching to FCP X. The ones who switched usually just went back to Avid or maybe Premiere. Those who stuck with FCP have have stayed with FCP 7.

> "I wouldn't go as far as calling your FCP editor a luddite since she still uses FCP 7. I know of no one in the broadcast world in Los Angeles at least, who was a FCP 7 house switching to FCP X"

You're right. I guess if the company you work for has not upgraded because of broadcast features missing from FCP X then that's understandable. FCP X is a lot like Vegas Pro. The magnetic timeline is liberating. It is extremely productive like Vegas Pro is so I guess FCP 7 editors wouldn't like Vegas Pro either. (except that we can edit way faster than they can) lol ;-)

But your point is well taken. I always said that if Sony had Vegas Pro on a Mac they could have stolen all the FCP 7 editors away from apple because Vegas Pro is productive like FCP X AND it has all of the broadcast features that FCP X is missing (but slowly getting back).

~jr

Just got back from the meeting. I let myself out of the project -- at least for now.
Let me make clear, this is a non-profit project. To my knowledge, no one is getting paid anything yet. I shot 95% of the footage and, to this point, have done a bunch of trial edits that everyone liked.

BUT .... They want to use FCP7 to go from here, The FCP7 editor has lots of television credits. They hope to get a grant to fund the post production. So possibly, down the road, there could be a budget. Apparently, I didn't fit into that picture.

For now, they wanted to know if I had a Mac and a copy of FCP7 to use, would I convert all the footage to ProRes422. I suppose I would have had to give the Mac back when I was finished. I should have asked that question. Sounds easy enough to convert footage. But why, in particular, did they want me to convert footage for FCP7? I know zip about FCP7. I asked if that process could be "unattended" .. The FCP7 editor said no. That let me out for sure. I didn't want to baby-sit 650 gigs of AVCHD file conversion for another editor. I wonder if they realize how much hard drive space they are talking about for the converted ProRes? THe FCP7 editor works on a laptop. Therefore, I assume we're talking USB drives?

Fundamentally, I saw myself being reduced to assistant editor work using a system I knew zero about with zero motivation to learn it. and working with an FCP7 editor whom I just met. ... ..(By the way, she bailed out of any personal meet up that we had planned prior to the meeting. Never got to find out if she actually loaded the Avid Codec)

But all this is what I expected. When I started shooting, I fancied myself as "filmmaker" .. I could see in the meeting, that notion was gone. I normally would not give you guys all the bloody details -- but hey -- I promised I would.

To concur with points made above, one of the guys in the meeting said FCP-X was like Coca-Cola introducing New Coke back in the 1980's.. Huge marketing mistake. Of course, no one considered Vegas Pro 12 as an option or saw anyway to work with a Vegas editor.. No one had a clue about DNxHD or any other workflow to cross the two platforms. I decided to cut my loses and declined to do the file conversions. Of course, who knows what will happen tomorrow .. but I'm fairly sure I won't be needed.

I've been following this thread with interest.

You shot 95% of the footage. It's a no budget production so you haven't been paid. You own that footage. It's not in a format that is compatible with FC7.

What is the FC7 editor going to edit without any footage? Reshoot the footage in a format that FC7 can ingest?

xberk, I feel your pain. What a bunch of clowns, but so typical of so many who know so little.

Johnny, I agree with you whole heartedly about FCP X, I like it much better than FCP 7 (not hard to do because I hate FCP 7). But I did see the similarities to Vegas when I first saw FCP X. I do have some sympathy for all of those big FCP 7 houses that had 25 to 300 FCP stations getting so shafted by Apple, I've never seen anything like it, and I don't think anyone in Hollywood has either. It was a small market, and business wise it was the right direction for Apple to go to mainstream Youtube users and get out of the thankless world of Broadcast support, but still, if I had owned all those licenses and all those Aja'a and the raid systems etc etc...

well i think you did the sensible thing....

it's interesting that many supposedly 'pro people' (ie. just qualified ba / mba / etc.,) actually have no depth of knowledge in any one field, that is, they're proficient at using jargon, buzz words, thinking 'big' picture (never the details though) and working collaboratively (which generally means they do an awful lot of talking leaving the actually nitty-gritty to 'old-fart' peons). finally, they wont listen to anyone 5 or more years older than them.

one of the reasons i 'retired' a few years back was i was literally sick and fed up with the then newly minted 'media' people. i had, at that time, just come to terms with the mobile + pony-tail brigade, forever talking on their mobiles during sound mixes, ordering short blacks, and constantly making changes to whatever they could just to prove they could... but back then i was a facility and grinned and bared it whilst noting EVERY expense and charging for it.

these clowns were in turned followed by a new generation who (from the little i've had to deal with them) seem to think that creating / producing a viable video is no different than writing a letter on a word processor - which has, for example, to be Word, because that's what they've used, and though open office does exactly the same thing, they're too naive to think outside the box they were brought up in.

the camera people are obsessed with dof, matt boxes (though usually have no idea of what 4x4 filters actually do), sliders and jib arms,and recording in the closest possible format to film for distr. on dvd or youtube.
the editors want to cc every shot to h*ll, composite stills with so many layers that the text is illegible, and they HAVE to do it on the 'industry' standard nle they learnt on
meanwhile the producers / directors are always looking to the music clip or feature that they're 'better' suited to whilst having to churn out 'this' crap to earn a living.

i don't envy anyone having to work in such an environment nowadays.

[/r]

Regardless of anything two editors seems destined to be trouble
One editor and a few assistant editors is different.
Getting that sorted before even thinking about which NLE would be used would be vital.
From the sound of this project more than one editor or any assistants would be more trouble than it's worth and to be honest neither Vegas or FCP seem the right NLE for collaborative editing. AFAIK they should be looking at either Avid or Lightworks for collaborative editing if they're serious.

Bob.

@ bob - two editors a problem - no way, one picks the in point, the other the out ;-)

@ Ushere,
If it was 3D one could edit the left eye and the other the right eye.

Bob.

[I]one of the reasons i 'retired' a few years back was i was literally sick and fed up with the then newly minted 'media' people. i had, at that time, just come to terms with the mobile + pony-tail brigade, forever talking on their mobiles during sound mixes, ordering short blacks, and constantly making changes to whatever they could just to prove they could... [/I]

Hilarious, and true. I see you have spent a good amount of time working in the "new" Corporate America.

@ushere, if you take out the word "mobile" you gave a perfect summary of my edit session experiences for my entire career! I moved to a remote location a few years back, so I only have to deal with phone or email intrusion from the 'creatives'. (They all know I won't respond to texts.)

@ bob - i'd love to see the result!!!!

@ kimberly - unfortunately i think everything 'new' is actually old, and that the corporate world is peopled by the same cretins the world over. what seems to have change the most is the jargon and the diminution of loyalty among the corporate workforce (though considering how they treat their employees nowadays it's no wonder there's no loyalty).

@ atom12 - my exact situation nowadays as well - and since i'm truly a grumpy old-fa*t there's very few of my clients who even contact me between shoot and posting first rough cut. there after i allow them a modicum of jiggling, but not much ;-).

> "For now, they wanted to know if I had a Mac and a copy of FCP7 to use, would I convert all the footage to ProRes422. I suppose I would have had to give the Mac back when I was finished. I should have asked that question. Sounds easy enough to convert footage. But why, in particular, did they want me to convert footage for FCP7? I know zip about FCP7. I asked if that process could be "unattended" .. The FCP7 editor said no."

I'm, surprised that they said that. Of course it can be done unattended. Just buy a copy of Apple Compressor 4 for $49, drop all of your AVCHD files into it and select the ProRes 422 template and let it render away. As I said, I'm surprised they didn't know that.

Here is something to throw at them: Tell them that if they were using FCP X they wouldn't have to worry about this. FCP X will edit native AVCHD and even if they did want to convert it to ProRes 422 (get this...) FCP X will do it in the background!!! That means you start editing right now and FCP X edits with the AVCHD file and converts the files to ProRes files in the background and as the render is done it swaps out the AVCHD in the project for the ProRes files automatically!!! Tell them to have a nice few days wasting their time waiting for FCP 7 to convert all the files before they can start editing. If you were using FCP X you would be done editing before they got their files converted. ;-)

> "I wonder if they realize how much hard drive space they are talking about for the converted ProRes? THe FCP7 editor works on a laptop. Therefore, I assume we're talking USB drives? "

I wouldn't make any assumptions. Most MacBook Pro's have USB 3.0, Firewire 800, and Thunderbolt!. Thunderbolt is 10 Gigabit / sec which by comparison to the Fire 400 on a PC that is running at 400 Megabits / sec is significantly faster than anything connected to your desktop PC (including eSATA) so Mac laptops are not constrained by I/O connections and are better than PC desktops in this area.

> "To concur with points made above, one of the guys in the meeting said FCP-X was like Coca-Cola introducing New Coke back in the 1980's.. Huge marketing mistake. "

Not really a fair comparison. New Coke tasted horrible. It wasn't better. ;-) FCP X is fundamentally better in it's approach to editing just like Vegas Pro is better at it's approach but FCP X's initial release lacked some pro features and it was very "different" and people are resistant to change. Now it has a bad rap but Apple has made steady improvements to add more pro features and the speed at which you can edit with FCP X compare to FCP 7 is considerably faster. I would never consider learning FCP 7's antiquated ways but I've picked up FCP X quite easily. It's still not as good as Vegas Pro IMHO and may never be as good at audio editing, but it's a lot better than FCP 7.

I guess the problem with those editors is that they have a tool that works. They see no reason to change. It would be hard to get them to do anything else at this point. I can't say I blame them but it is not the tool I would have chosen. It's too bad it didn't work out for you.

~jr

I've got to agree that having two editors on two NLEs would have been a steep learning experience, and probably unnecessary from everyone's vantage point but yours.

I totally understand the desire to stick with FCP 7. It's in their comfort zone and there's a lot of infrastructure and talent in place to support it. That's much more important than the platform itself. It's always about the size of the marketplace, never about the qualities of the tool.

The thing with the FCP7 base is that they didn't want a brand new and unfinished NLE. They wanted improvements to FCP7. With FCP7 at a dead end they'll move on over the course of a few years, but anyone with a project started in FCP7 will hang onto it until they're finished.

Rob

I've been following this thread with some interest. I've never collaborated on a project with a Mac editor, but my first instinct would be to insist on independence for my portion of the project. I'd install MacDrive on my PC so that I could read and write his files transparently.

Best comment on the thread was Farss' notion of doing each eye independently if it was a 3D project.

Thanks again for all the response to this thread. I'm headed to Europe for a month .. back at the end of Oct. Meanwhile someone else will hopefully be transcoding the 50 hours of AVCHD to ProRes422 and doing detailed shot logs of the footage along with transcripts for 20-25 interviews etc etc .... all of this so they can do a "paper edit" and figure out the story -- the beginning --- the middle --- the end ??? .. or ... or .. they'll just cut together a 3-4 minute "trailer" with lots of impact and put together a "grant package" to get some funding ... hmmmmmm ... I wonder what they'll do.

@xberk

Up earlier in the thread, during the discussion of you sharing the editing with the FCP editor and having to use the Avid codec, I was thinking you should just do your own full cut of the entire project and see what they thought.

If you were good enough you could probably even finish the whole project before the FCP editor finished her half.