Vegas Pro 20 Render Prores 4k File size anomaly

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/23/2024, 8:41 PM

Hi, I just rendered 100 mins of ProRes 422LT 3840x2160 4K video footage from Vegas Pro 20 timeline nested project to ProRes 422HQ. The resulting file sizes are as follows: 3840x2160 4k file is (90GB) while the 1920x1080 2k file is (125GB). Media Info app shows almost identical specs except for width and height. I'm using the Vegas ProRes HQ render templates for each file. The resultant file sizes are counterintuitive.

Is the file size anomaly something to be concerned about?

Windows computer with:
- Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit
- 11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-1165G7 @ 2.80GHz
- 32414 MB RAM

Comments

Gid wrote on 7/23/2024, 9:45 PM

@ROBERTIO Hi, I don't know, curious tho. so could you share the MediaInfo of each file & it might give a clue 👍

The App is called MediaInfo, download it, it's free & a fast download with no added adverts or any of that rubbish. https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo.
After downloading, right click on the media file in your Windows folder, open MediaInfo, choose Text from the options at the top, screen capture that page or Copy & paste the information in a new comment on here using the arrow button next to the smiley at the top of a new comment 👍

Like this

Vegas Pro 18 - 22
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At the moment my filming is done with a Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra 5G & a GoPro Hero11 Black

I've been a Joiner/Carpenter for 40yrs, apprentice trained time served, I don't have an apprentice of my own so to share my knowledge I put videos on YouTube.

YouTube videos - https://www.youtube.com/c/Gidjoiner

 

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/24/2024, 5:55 AM

Here are the file comparison specs.

General
Complete name                            : C:\Users\robert\Videos\ART e FACT Final Cut\ART e FACT Nested ASSEMBLY Final HQ 4k.mov
Format                                   : QuickTime
Format/Info                              : Original Apple specifications
File size                                : 87.0 GiB
Duration                                 : 1 h 39 min
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 125 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2024-07-22 05:53:06
Tagged date                              : UTC 2024-07-22 05:53:06
Writing library                          : Apple QuickTime
IsTruncated                              : Yes

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : ProRes
Format version                           : Version 0
Format profile                           : 422 HQ
Codec ID                                 : apch
Duration                                 : 1 h 39 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 664 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 3.338
Stream size                              : 462 GiB
Writing library                          : magx
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2024-07-22 05:53:06
Tagged date                              : UTC 2024-07-22 05:53:06
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Big / Signed
Codec ID                                 : twos
Duration                                 : 1 h 39 min
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 1.07 GiB (1%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2024-07-22 05:53:06
Tagged date                              : UTC 2024-07-22 05:53:06

____________________________________________________________

General
Complete name                            : C:\Users\robert\Videos\ART e FACT Final Cut\ART e FACT Prores HQ Final Cut.mov
Format                                   : QuickTime
Format/Info                              : Original Apple specifications
File size                                : 120 GiB
Duration                                 : 1 h 39 min
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 173 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2023-12-11 22:44:25
Tagged date                              : UTC 2023-12-11 22:44:25
Writing library                          : Apple QuickTime

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : ProRes
Format version                           : Version 0
Format profile                           : 422 HQ
Codec ID                                 : apch
Duration                                 : 1 h 39 min
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 171 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 3.440
Stream size                              : 119 GiB (99%)
Writing library                          : magx
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2023-12-11 22:44:25
Tagged date                              : UTC 2023-12-11 22:44:25
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Big / Signed
Codec ID                                 : twos
Duration                                 : 1 h 39 min
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 1.07 GiB (1%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2023-12-11 22:44:25
Tagged date                              : UTC 2023-12-11 22:44:25

gorGaram wrote on 7/24/2024, 5:59 AM

There are no anomalies. According to the bitrate and resolution, and the size.

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X

VideoCard: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 Ti 16Gb

Memory: 128Gb

OS: Windows 10 (1809)

Drive C: (SSD-500Gb) - ONLY system

Drive D: (HDD 4Tb) - ProrgamFiles and Temp
Drive E: (HDD 4Tb) - Work drive

Vegas Pro: 20.411, 21.315, 22.122

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/24/2024, 6:08 AM

Right. So 3840 pixels x  2160 pixels @ 87GB vs 1920 x 1080 pixels @ 120GB is not a problem?

EricLNZ wrote on 7/24/2024, 6:32 AM

There appears to be something strange, unless I'm misreading the figures.

With the 3840x2160 file the Overall bit rate is given as 125 Mb/s and then the Video bit rate is given as 664 Mb/s. But the Video bitrate cannot be larger than the Overall bit rate??

The resulting file size is of course dependent solely on the bitrate, irrespective of the image size or framerate.

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/24/2024, 6:50 AM

 

There appears to be something strange, unless I'm misreading the figures.

With the 3840x2160 file the Overall bit rate is given as 125 Mb/s and then the Video bit rate is given as 664 Mb/s. But the Video bitrate cannot be larger than the Overall bit rate??

The resulting file size is of course dependent solely on the bitrate, irrespective of the image size or framerate.

Yes. That is strange. Thanks. I rendered a 2 minute test file and the overall bit rate is 701 Mb/s while the Video bit rate is 699 Mb/s. Which in consistent with your comment. I don't understand why the render of the 100 min project has this difference. The file seems to play OK.

Dexcon wrote on 7/24/2024, 6:53 AM

With the 3840x2160 file the Overall bit rate is given as 125 Mb/s and then the Video bit rate is given as 664 Mb/s.

Also odd is that the HD render is showing as being 171 Mb/s but the Overall Bit Rate is showing as 173 Mb/s, this being a higher overall bit rate for the HD render (173 Mb/s) than for the 4K render (125 Mb/s). Based purely on these overall bit rates, it would be expected that the HD file size would be larger than the 4K file.

Both renders are variable bit rate but as far as I can see (I don't use ProRes very much) Vegas Pro's ProRes custom render templates don't offer a choice between variable and constant bit rate settings as occurs in MAGIX AVC/AAC MP4 render templates where, with VBR, the maximum and average bit rates can be custom coded.

Last changed by Dexcon on 7/24/2024, 7:01 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

Cameras: Sony FDR-AX100E; GoPro Hero 11 Black Creator Edition

Installed: Vegas Pro 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 & 22, HitFilm Pro 2021.3, DaVinci Resolve Studio 19.0.3, BCC 2025, Mocha Pro 2025.0, NBFX TotalFX 7, Neat NR, DVD Architect 6.0, MAGIX Travel Maps, Sound Forge Pro 16, SpectraLayers Pro 11, iZotope RX11 Advanced and many other iZ plugins, Vegasaur 4.0

Windows 11

Dell Alienware Aurora 11:

10th Gen Intel i9 10900KF - 10 cores (20 threads) - 3.7 to 5.3 GHz

NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2080 SUPER 8GB GDDR6 - liquid cooled

64GB RAM - Dual Channel HyperX FURY DDR4 XMP at 3200MHz

C drive: 2TB Samsung 990 PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 PCIe SSD

D: drive: 4TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD (used for media for editing current projects)

E: drive: 2TB Samsung 870 SATA SSD

F: drive: 6TB WD 7200 rpm Black HDD 3.5"

Dell Ultrasharp 32" 4K Color Calibrated Monitor

 

LAPTOP:

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i5-11320H CPU

C Drive: 1TB Corsair Gen4 NVMe M.2 2230 SSD (upgraded from the original 500 GB SSD)

Monitor is 2560 x 1600 @ 60 Hz

gorGaram wrote on 7/24/2024, 7:00 AM

I suggest that the topikstarter post a piece of the original file with a size of 1 minute. Those who wish will recode and publish their results here, as a mediainfo. I guess it will be about the same.

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 3700X

VideoCard: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 Ti 16Gb

Memory: 128Gb

OS: Windows 10 (1809)

Drive C: (SSD-500Gb) - ONLY system

Drive D: (HDD 4Tb) - ProrgamFiles and Temp
Drive E: (HDD 4Tb) - Work drive

Vegas Pro: 20.411, 21.315, 22.122

Todd-AO wrote on 7/24/2024, 7:18 AM

This might be unrelated but they had numerous Prores bitrate problems in VP20, and although they thought they fixed it in build 2 my recollection is they didn't.

Did they fix bitrate problems by VP20 final, can't recall, and I presume you're on the final build

This is showing bitrate use comparison between Premiere and VP20, it's very different but this was made in late December 2022, and the build you're using should be much later, the bitrate reflects the animation, Premiere is correct, Vegas isn't.

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/24/2024, 7:23 AM

Did they fix bitrate problems by VP20 final, can't recall, and I presume you're on the final build

 

I have VP20 2022 Build 411.

 

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/24/2024, 9:01 PM

Something else about my render: My UHD render is a bit lower at 664 Mb/s than the Apple spec below. But I don't understand the low overall bitrate of 125Mb/s. I'm not an expert . . .

The bitrate of Apple ProRes 422HQ, Full HD (1920 x 1080) and 30 fps is 220Mb/s versus the bitrate of Apple ProRes 422HQ, 4K UHD (3840x2160) and 30 fps which is 884 Mb/s.

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/24/2024, 9:39 PM

I just did a test render of a 2 min section from the 100 min timeline. The results seem relatively consistent with the Apple specs.

General
Complete name                            : C:\Users\robert\Videos\ART e FACT Final Cut\ART e FACT Nested ASSEMBLY Final 2 min test.mov
Format                                   : QuickTime
Format/Info                              : Original Apple specifications
File size                                : 10.6 GiB
Duration                                 : 2 min 7 s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
Overall bit rate                         : 716 Mb/s
Encoded date                             : UTC 2024-07-25 02:17:21
Tagged date                              : UTC 2024-07-25 02:17:21
Writing library                          : Apple QuickTime

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : ProRes
Format version                           : Version 0
Format profile                           : 422 HQ
Codec ID                                 : apch
Duration                                 : 2 min 7 s
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 714 Mb/s
Width                                    : 3 840 pixels
Height                                   : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 3.592
Stream size                              : 10.6 GiB (100%)
Writing library                          : magx
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2024-07-25 02:17:21
Tagged date                              : UTC 2024-07-25 02:17:21
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Audio
ID                                       : 2
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings                          : Big / Signed
Codec ID                                 : twos
Duration                                 : 2 min 7 s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 kb/s
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 kHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 23.3 MiB (0%)
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : UTC 2024-07-25 02:17:21
Tagged date                              : UTC 2024-07-25 02:17:21

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/24/2024, 9:50 PM

So I'm wondering is there and issue with the the following in regards to rendering a 100 minute nested project?

  1. My version of Vegas Pro 20 Build 411
  2. My computer
  3. Both
mark-y wrote on 7/24/2024, 10:02 PM

It looks like maybe a quirk in your reported metadata.

There are only two factors in determining file size : Time and Bitrate. Confine your comparisons to those two factors, confirm your metadata results by substitution, and your thinking will become clear.

The math is simply this:

Bitrate (Mbps) X Time (Sec) X .125 = File Size (MB)

Re-order the formula to confirm your actual bitrate.

Be sure to add your video and audio bitrates to get a more accurate Total Bitrate.

That's it; nothing mysterious.

 

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/24/2024, 11:08 PM

Thanks. The results for my renders are consistent with the math. However, the overall bitrate 125 Mb/s for the UHD 100 minute @ 87 MB render is still oddly low relative to apple specs.

mark-y wrote on 7/25/2024, 1:50 PM

@ROBERTIO  Are you using the final build of Vegas 20?

I'm unable to reproduce your metadata reporting error, either in the MediaInfo Summary or Details View.

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/25/2024, 3:56 PM

@mark-y I'm using VP 20 build 411. I assume it's the final version because my license doesn't offer any newer version except upgrading to VP 21.

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/25/2024, 4:21 PM

@mark-y I'll attempt another full 100 minute render today and share the Metadata.

mark-y wrote on 7/25/2024, 6:40 PM

That's fine, but since I can't replicate, I won't be of much help...

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/25/2024, 7:43 PM

That's fine, but since I can't replicate, I won't be of much help...

Thanks, anway:)

john_dennis wrote on 7/26/2024, 2:17 AM

I rendered a seven-minute project to Apple Pro Res 422 HQ on Vegas Pro 21-315 with the following results:

I don't see anything unreasonable.

john_dennis wrote on 7/26/2024, 2:36 AM

The complexity of the timeline makes a difference in the Bits/(Pixel*Frame)... 

... but pixel dimension differences have little effect.

This measurement was done with the video track level at 0. A black screen produces a Bits/(Pixel*Frame) measurement of 0.084 while the fully bright video with lots of action produced 3.724 Bits/(Pixel*Frame).

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/26/2024, 2:42 AM

@john_dennis Thanks. I performed a similar test on a 2 minute section of the original nested timeline project I'm having the problem with. The results were reasonable. As soon as I get the chance I'll try rendering the entire project again. It takes around 10 hours on my PC.

ROBERTIO wrote on 7/27/2024, 11:13 PM

UPDATE!

I solved the problem. The inconsistent render results were caused by insufficient hard drive storage space. I needed an extra 500GB so VP 20 could complete the render. Here's some metadata of the resulting render. Looks relatively OK compared with Apple ProRes 422HQ UHD specs. Thanks for everyone's help!

  • File size : 463 GiB
  • Duration : 1 h 39 min
  • Overall bit rate mode : Variable
  • Overall bit rate : 665 Mb/s
  • VIDEO
  • Bit rate mode : Variable
  • Bit rate : 664 Mb/s
  • Width : 3 840 pixels
  • Height : 2 160 pixels