Vegas Pro not 'professional'?


rmack350 wrote on 11/15/2013, 12:22 PM
+1 to VicMilt

Going back to the first example where the top 3 NLEs are listed, imagine if they tried to name-drop everything available. They could mention Vegas, Edius,..

Eventually it's a practical matter. You name a few NLEs and then move on with the sentence. I'm sure SCS would like to be in the top three but the money for them is in consumers and prosumers.

Marc S wrote on 11/15/2013, 1:11 PM
Good media management would go a long way in making Vegas more professional. That is one area that the other programs far exceed Vegas.

Also I think keeping the name "Vegas" was a big mistake. Sure it does not affect us editors but for marketing perception it just sounds silly. Why not something like Sony Pro-Edit?
Lovelight wrote on 11/15/2013, 3:06 PM
V12 is not very professional when it comes to audio on usb 3, 3 tb drives. In fact the company as a whole is a real sign of the times filled with newspeak & propaganda. Support is a joke & not helpful to me at all. So yes, my opinion of sony is falling.
Marc S wrote on 11/15/2013, 3:35 PM
And the stability problems that have plagued the last 3 releases.

I originally switched to Vegas from Premiere because Vegas was so darn solid not to mention the awesome interface. Recently I switched to Premiere for a my more complicated projects because Vegas is so unstable these days. And yes support is a joke.
wwjd wrote on 11/15/2013, 4:26 PM
I won't really try to defend this product, as we all know it has issues - like most software these days that gets released to fast, unchecked to us, the demanding public....

Like a poster above says, "they ALL have issues".

It is interesting to me the last few releases have issues... is this because these products are tasked to do twice or three times as much as the version a few years back? We've added much larger video resolution, 5.1 surround sound, 64bit, more/better plugins to match all that.... no longer your simple, basic editor.
Windows Movie Maker rarely crashes, but does VERY little in comparison.
Not to mention to recent geometric expansion of computer gear, CPUs, graphics, everything running away at a breakneck pace into the unknown future...

Like how a phone has gone from being just a phone to a do everything tool? just a thought
Marc S wrote on 11/15/2013, 4:30 PM
All I can say is the old Premiere almost drove me insane before switching to Vegas 3 through 9. Now Premiere CS6 is much more stable than Vegas 10,11, & 12 ever was.

So me thinks the code is screwed up.
rmack350 wrote on 11/15/2013, 4:59 PM
And yes support is a joke.

Jokes have punch lines, though.

This morning I got an email response to a support question I asked on 9/11. Granted, it was the 2nd response in 8 weeks, but the project and the problem had long since been put to bed.

That was free support. They never try to sell me paid support and I've never seen a sign that it would be better, but it wouldn't be out of line to have to pay a fee for same day support, or get unpaid support within two days of filing a ticket.

ushere wrote on 11/15/2013, 5:29 PM
and knew the tool he was using so well (Corel Draw) that he had become incredibly efficient. It was still slow, but his results were amazing.

in a way i find being 'forced' to slow down (be it renders, ram previews, whatever) a ver useful side effect.... back in vtr days that 5 / 10 sec preroll let you know where you were coming from and where you were going - both very important factors on any cut / transition.

a lot of stuff i see nowadays is gorgeously shot, but put together with more thought on cc'ing and fx than on the actual cut points...
Former user wrote on 11/15/2013, 5:39 PM
I remember having to record control track on tape. It always seemed a bit of a ritual before making that all important first edit onto black tape. Pre-rolls...I'd watch them over and over in preview to make sure I was doing exactly what I needed to. Now it's almost too easy to move stuff around...I get careless.

As a final thought, let's remember that there are different kinds of professionals. I am a professional. I make my living doing audio and video work. My chosen video tool is Vegas because it's fast, easy, and gets the job done with the least amount of hassle (in my experience). As a single editor, as a project editor, Vegas is the bomb.

Huge collaborative projects most often require media management tools and Vegas really isn't intended for that (hence SCS doesn't market to that crowd).

You COULD edit a movie on Vegas, but you'd spend a lot of time exporting image sequences and compositing outside of Vegas. Big projects have LOTS of people involved (I have several friends who work, or have worked, at Bioware - you literally have dozens of people working on parts of a project - the collaborative tools they need are all done in PPro because it makes sense - but some of those same guys do all their side projects in Vegas because they like it more).

2 bits....spent.
GeeBax wrote on 11/15/2013, 5:48 PM
As my background includes having been taught to cut and splice 2" quad tape, and then having one of the first quad recorders in Australia in a private production house, then going on to use the first CMX system imported into the country, I would say I qualify as a 'professional'.

Given that and the fact that Vegas Pro is my choice of NLE, I figure that makes it a professional's tool. It may be that it is not just the product, but who chooses to use it.

PS: Sony were making editing systems long before Avid or Adobe.
Mchl496 wrote on 11/16/2013, 12:36 AM
Software can be professional... professional software can handle high work loads. Sony Vegas can't handle high integrated work loads. I can very easily without trying over burden sony vegas. I had an 8 minute short film that killed Sony Vegas so much I had to chop it up into 2 minute projects to get something remotely workable. Im glad sony isn't just crapping out pro 13 and 14... they need to sit down and work on making this good. Having a GTX 780 sc and 32 gigs of ram should allow me to edit a VFX heavy(with hitfilm integration) feature in 1 project if I wanted... it can't
wilvan wrote on 11/16/2013, 1:18 AM
Agree with Mchl496 . Pro software uses all possibilities a ( real ) workstation can offer in order to maximize performance . It detects the amount of CPU cores , RAM available and video card(s) installed and does allow to use all of those at their max and without restrictions
They also do work close together with workstation manufacturers , video card manufacturers and make sure their software follows their possibilities.
Am not complaining about vegas pro , since am using it for many years for standard editing but there is certainly a difference .That is the choice a software
developing company makes and where they think their main market should be. ( home PC market or ... ).

Sony  PXW-FS7K and 2 x Sony PXW-Z280  ( optimised as per Doug Jensen Master Classes and Alister Chapman advices )
2 x HP Z840 workstations , each as follows : WIN10 pro x 64 , 2 x 10 core Xeon E5-2687W V3 at 3.5 GHz , 256 GB reg ECC RAM , HP nvidia quadro RTX A5000 , 3 x samsung 970 EVO Plus 1TB M.2 2280 PCIe 3.0 x4  , 3 x SSD 1TB samsung 860 pro , 3 x 3TB WD3003FZEX.
SONY Vegas Pro 13 build 453  ( user since version 4 ) , SONY DVDarch , SONY SoundForge(s) , SONY Acid Pro(s) , SONY Cinescore ( each year buying upgrades for all of them since vegas pro 4 )
(MAGIX) Vegas pro 14 ( bought it as a kind of support but never installed it )
Adobe Photoshop  CC 2018
Adobe After Effects CC 2018 & Adobe Media Encoder CC 2018
Avid Media Composer 2022.xx ( started with the FREE Avid Media Composer First in 2019 )
Dedicated solely editing systems , fully optimized , windows 10 pro x 64 
( win10 pro operating systems , all most silly garbage and kid's stuff of microsoft entirely removed , never update win 10 unless required for editing purposes or ( maybe ) after a while when updates have proven to be reliable and no needless microsoft kid's stuff is added in the updates )

Former user wrote on 11/16/2013, 2:07 AM
@Mchl496 - I have to ask...what the heck was in your 8 minute project that was killing Vegas? I've done long (40 min for TV) and tons of shorts (sub 10 min) projects and only had serious grief in 11 and early versions of 12. The most recent builds have been so stable I'm very content.
vicmilt wrote on 11/16/2013, 11:56 AM
Someone asked if I could show some samples of footage edited in Vegas.

How about this?

Everything I've done in "digital" has been done with Vegas (all the way from V3 to the current V12). Because I've been shooting a long time, the cameras start at 4:3 Sony Beta's, to the Z1 (one of my favorites), to the Canon 5D ( a lot) and now I just shot with the Sony C300 - and I may be back in love again. Oh...those curves...

Some of the footage was from my (looong) past and all of that was shot in 35mm and edited in various manners which predate digital editing.

But once Digital "came of age" - I dropped 35mm like a hot potato - and NO - you could not convince me to return to film for any money in the world. Wanna argue that with me - well i've got over a million feet of 35mm footage in my locker - what have you got?

Now - belligerent smart ass comments to the side - you folks live in the greatest era in media production - EVER! And my main tool for video editing (and a hell of a lot of effects) is Sony Vegas.

For high end stabilization and keying (national broadcast quality) - I still use After Effects. For most corporate work that will end up on the web - I do it all in Vegas.

Thanks Sony.
Kimberly wrote on 11/16/2013, 12:09 PM
Mr. Milt you have opened a Pandora's box, as I am sure you will now get many requests to visit your awesome facilities. Next will come requests for training seminars. I, for one, have family in sunny South Florida and I go there a couple of times a year : )
vicmilt wrote on 11/16/2013, 12:47 PM
Ha ha Kimberly - that is funny.

In truth I lectured on production, lighting ,\ directing and greenscreen at the annual Las Vegas NAB for about five or six years.
I generally had "standing room only" - I guess people liked my slightly off-color jokes along with my slightly off-color footage.

And recently I got corralled to teach a three day "still seminar" to pros down here in South Florida.
So I made a sales piece for THAT! (Edited as usual in Vegas)

Check it out:

set wrote on 11/16/2013, 11:40 PM
Nice works Victor Milt :)

Btw, good quote of yours in 'I Love Photography' video.
Rod Williams wrote on 11/19/2013, 11:39 PM
Let me start by saying that I am an old dog trying to learn new tricks. I was almost 60 when I got into video and I find the black art of editing to be a steep learning curve. I use pro 11. My primary camera is a Z5P. I have a friend that shoots similar subjects with a similar camera. His results always look crisper and cleaner than mine. He edits with Final Cut. I have no desire to start learning how to use Final Cut or own a MAC, I am already swimming out of my depth. My question is when shooting AVCHD at 25p on my Z5P what is the best selection for rendering a project for use on the internet/Youtube. When I open a project I match properties but when I go to render and ask for a match the only option I get is wmv 6.7 Mbps. I have experimented and found the Main Concept Internet 1080 ( mp4) gets a better result. Why then is this not offered and is this my best option. I would really appreciate any help.
ushere wrote on 11/20/2013, 1:26 AM
avchd on a z5p?

you can only record sd or hd as m2t on a z5p.

FPP wrote on 11/20/2013, 10:27 AM
Well said.
peterB wrote on 12/20/2013, 12:11 PM
This question reminds me of the ZIPPY GALLOO days. I reckon "professional" depends on the user. I am a professional and I use Vegas.

I have been paid to produce video as a freelancer and as head of a major oil company's media department for nigh on 30 years. Started with U-Matic, then Betacam, then Betacam SP then DVCAM then XDCAM then XDCAM HD. Got an AVID Media Composer (MAC) in 1996. I've used AVID 1996 - 2009, Adobe since version 5.1 and Vegas since the original Vegas audio mixer came out in maybe 2000?

I shoot with my PDW 700 and edit XDCAM HD 50 422 exclusively with Vegas because Adobe CS6 is useless for 422 even on a dual quad XEON with 32 gigs DDR3 RAM and a QuadroFX 4800.

Vegas out of the box lacks many of Adobe's and AVID's features but BorisFX's BCC8, BFX10, Graffiti, Red 5, FEC complete and the Eye Scream Factory plugins give me all sorts of effects, phenomenal colour correction and great titling.

I can easily afford to go back to AVID but I hate the UI and am sick of it. Vegas is simple to use and never locks into Adobe CS5, CS5.5 and CS6's loathesome conforming/rendering dance that invariably happens with HDV, XDCAM 35 or XDCAM 422.

I could edit my SD projects with a BVE 910 and BVW 70s or DSR 2000s because it is primarily straight cut editing, same style as professional news and broadcast TV editors use. Ever seen fancy transitions on Duck Dynasty or Criminal Minds?

Do my freelance customers give damn what I edit with? No, they sure don't..

JohnnyRoy wrote on 12/20/2013, 2:11 PM
> Posted by: John McCully "So why is Vegas Pro so often excluded from the serious discourse?"

Getting back to the original question... Vegas Pro is excluded from the discussion simply because it's market share is not in the top three. Grass Valley Edius isn't mentioned either and lots of professionals use it. Being a "professional" simply means that you make your "living" doing something. Since plenty of us make a living using Vegas Pro it is certainly a "professional" tool with lots of professional features. It just isn't in the top three. ;-)

BTW, The PBS series "Painting & Travel with Roger and Sarah Bansemer" is in it's 5th season and it is edited entirely in Vegas Pro (I was the finishing editor for the first 3 seasons and am still a technical consultant on the series).

GeeBax wrote on 12/20/2013, 3:07 PM
And also harking back to the original question, the statement came from Blackmagic Design, a company that has an entrenched Mac view of the world.
John McCully wrote on 12/20/2013, 3:26 PM
Thanks for that, JohnnyRoy. And while you have answered the question your answer simply defers the question to why its market share is as you described. There are many answers some of which have been articulated here so I am not seriously posing that again. And yes, I have no difficulty in agreeing that Vegas Pro is a tool suitable for ‘professional’ use.

But I must comment on your view about what professional ‘simply’ means. In my opinion it is not as simple as that. Along with ‘awesome’ the word ‘professional’ has been so miss-used and abused as to now mean anything you want it to mean, and of course the result is it means essentially nothing at all. While I do not dispute your definition might I suggest that is only one (formal) aspect of the definition.

The OED confirms this and tells us when used as a noun: ‘a person competent or skilled in a particular activity - 'she was a real professional on stage’ and in fact she might well be an amateur; that is unpaid in respect to that activity.

Whatever, the word should be treated with extreme skepticism especially when used in a marketing context. And those who constantly claim to be ‘professional’ are making a good case that they are indeed anything but.

Interestingly I wonder what the ‘Pro’ in the title of Vegas Pro means. Nothing to do with street corners after dark perhaps.