Vegas to Youtube, Vimeo, Web -- A New Look

musicvid10 wrote on 1/12/2011, 10:17 AM

This thread is intended to lead to a productive discussion. So feel motivated to offer constructive insight, rather than hen-pecking. Thanks!

Those who have been following the many discussions going back a year or so, know that a handful of us have become interested in using Handbrake as an output engine for the web. Finding an acceptable intermediate between Vegas and HB was a roadblock, until Laurence and I discovered that DNxHD in "709 mode" does not throw the colorspace error with x264 that almost every other YUV/YV12 codec we tried does. Note: Sony's mpeg-2 based MXF also works, and Cineform does not.* So, with that in mind, and based on the collective base of knowledge that has grown since, I have made a number of assumptions.

-- That x264 holds up better below 10Mbs than does Mainconcept AVC.
-- That 720p is currently a better upload medium than 1080i, from an upstream postprocessing standpoint, and playability on most consumer systems and connections.
-- That yadif is a more versatile deinterlace method than blend or interpolate, in most situations.
-- That lanczos3 resize is better than bicubic, with or without sharpening, in most situations.
-- That uploaded media must be strictly conformed to 16-235 levels, to prevent clipping at both ends. Includes generated text and media, and FTB levels!
-- That uploaded media should be streaming-ready.
-- That a DNxHD 220Mbs intermediate is probably overkill for 4:2:0 source, and is probably not worth the extra time and file size over 145Mbs.
-- That the time spent encoding the intermediate and again in Handbrake is reasonable, compared to say, 2-pass VBR in Vegas.

So, using material graciously provided by amendegw, stringer, and kimberly for this purpose, and input from laurence, Nick Hope, amendegw, farss, John_Cline, and many others, here is my second draft of sample video to be included in an upcoming tutorial this winter. Note that this footage has been conformed to 709 levels, and minor gamma tweaks have been applied, so it may not look "exactly" like the originals, but I tried to retain the shooters' intentions as closely as possible..

Be sure to view at 720p. The original uploaded mp4 will also be available at Vimeo, and the DNxHD 145 1080i intermediate (2.4GB) will hopefully be on MediaFire in a day or so.

http://vimeo.com/18690771

Youtube version is good, but no way to get around their splotchiness in FTB/FFB transitions. Be sure to view at 720p.

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Comments

amendegw wrote on 3/30/2011, 6:32 AM

Okay, here's a question for the group - or maybe specifically for musicvid.

What about 1920x1080 60p? More cameras are beginning to shoot to this format and I'm not able to find a good intermediate render as a source for HandBrake. Neither DNxHD or MXF will allow me to match the 1920x1080 60p project/source clip settings (am I missing something basic here?).

So, I my conclusion is to render using MainConcept AVC/AAC encoder to a high bitrate mp4 and use that as the source for HandBrake.

On the other hand, maybe the way to do this is to let Vegas reduce the fps to 30p, then DNxHD & MXF are options. After all, the end-result will be 1280x720 30p. (although it would be nice to host "action shots" via JW Player at 60p).

So, what's the best practice here?

...Jerry

musicvid10 wrote on 3/30/2011, 9:16 AM

Jerry,

Select one of the DNxHD Progressive presets, then select 59.940 or type in 60 (depending) in the Vegas custom video tab.

I haven't tried this specifically, but it is how I get true 30p from dslr source and project.
Let me know if it works for you.

amendegw wrote on 3/30/2011, 9:47 AM

musicvid,

You are the man! Worked great. Because there was not a 59.94 fps Progressive option in the DNxHD config, I thought it was not allowed. I chose the 1080p 25fps option in the DNxHD config & 59.94 fps in the "Quicktime 7" panel - and it worked like a champ! All the way thru a HandBrake Render @ 59.94 fps.

The following screen capture is for anyone else who needs to solve the same issue:

...Jerry

musicvid10 wrote on 3/30/2011, 10:11 AM

Did you have to select "Same as Source" frame rate in Handbrake to get that 59.94?

I ask that because not all devices (iPad for one) do not fully support VFR yet, from what I read on the HB forum.

amendegw wrote on 3/30/2011, 11:46 AM

"Did you have to select "Same as Source" frame rate in Handbrake to get that 59.94?Yes, I did select "Same as Source". I'm not sure I understand your comment about VFR, but it's interesting that somehow the Frame Rate got changed from constant to variable in the HandBrake render.

First the DNxHD render:

Next, the HandBrake render:

...Jerry

musicvid10 wrote on 3/30/2011, 11:51 AM

Right, "Same as Source" is variable frame rate (realtime scan). It's been a problem for encoding to some devices (Apple).

JHendrix wrote on 4/20/2011, 12:15 PM

my project:

1920x1080
29.970
progressive

--

I am a bit confused about DNxHD settings

it has been mentioned "use project settings for DNxHD"

I dont see my project settings as option.

--

also in Vegas i am confused about deinterlace method setting

amendegw wrote on 4/20/2011, 12:49 PM

JHendrix,

Starting with the post 8 posts up, the process is explained (although the question was for 1080 60p rather than 30p). Specifically here's a screenprint.

This might be worth a challenge from others, but I think your deinterlace settings should be set to "none" - no deinterlacing is being done. You're not de-interlacing.

...Jerry

amendegw wrote on 4/20/2011, 1:05 PM

"This might be worth a challenge from others, but I think your deinterlace settings should be set to "none" - no deinterlacing is being done. You're not de-interlacing."Replying to my own post, I've set up a new thread to discuss this here: Resizing on Render

...Jerry

JHendrix wrote on 4/20/2011, 1:42 PM

thanks

i look pretty darn good with the setting you suggested. but the mp4 is 60MB for roughly 3 min video?

is that about normal in this workflow or would i be able to reduce that size (assuming in handbrake settings) and keep about the same quality?

amendegw wrote on 4/20/2011, 2:12 PM

On the HandBrake "Video" tab, you can increase the CQ:RF or decrease the Avg Bitrate to reduce your file size. You will probably have to go thru some trial & error to get the smallest file with the best quality. Hint: start at an RF=30 and reduce from there if you're looking for as small, low bitrate media file.

Good Luck!
...Jerry

JHendrix wrote on 4/20/2011, 3:12 PM

Hint: start at an RF=30 and reduce from there if you're looking for as small, low bitrate media file.

I will give it a shot, I actually had it at the default RF20 and got the 60MB

update:

Looks like RF-25 was the magic number on this clip. Got it down to 22MB

essami wrote on 5/24/2011, 8:44 AM

Can someone shed a little more light to how the Constant Quality RF settings compares to the Bitrates I'm used to?

I just rendered a music video at Constant Quality RF: 20 and got a file the size of 60MB and it looks VERY similar to an AVC encode from Vegas at 6000kbps. But that renders file size is 160MB!!!

This is awesome!

Sami

musicvid10 wrote on 5/24/2011, 9:00 AM

The one disadvantage of Constant Quality is that there is no accurate connection between the CQ setting and conventional variable bitrates, nor can one predict the final average bitrate. The biggest advantage is that it optimizes quality in half the time and more efficiently than conventional vbr.

essami wrote on 5/24/2011, 9:14 AM

Is there advantage of feeding Vimeo an even higher quality video at CQ RF 15 for example?

So is it a question of giving Vimeo what it needs or giving it the best possible file to do it's own compression from?

I don't mind extra 15 minutes time to encode nor do I mind a filesize of 150MB vs. 60MB.

musicvid10 wrote on 5/24/2011, 9:21 AM

There is not advantage of going below RF 19 for anything. Lots of documentation on the Handbrake forum and wiki.

musicvid10 wrote on 5/24/2011, 9:29 AM

Sami,
Check your email.
;?)

essami wrote on 5/25/2011, 4:26 AM

Thanks Musicvid!

So how do I get better quality? I have a video that is full of fades and it looks really bad when compressed. Or is simply impossible to get it to look good when compressed to mp4 for playback on my computer (with CQ RF slider)? Or are you only referring about uploading it to Vimeo or Youtube?

musicvid10 wrote on 5/25/2011, 9:30 AM

My note about fades applies only to Youtube, and I don't know anything that can be done about that. Uploading higher bitrate, even CBR, doesn't help.

Fades should look fine on your PC after following the Handbrake tutorial.

NickHope wrote on 5/25/2011, 10:47 AM

Nothing you can do about it for YouTube. Time to get creative with the transitions! But unfortunately when you start trying to replace dissolves/fades with anything else, things get cheesy very quickly. Anyone got any suggestions for a classy substitute for a dissolve/fade, that won't generate into a mess of blocks and pixellation on YT?

essami wrote on 5/25/2011, 12:48 PM

Hahaha! I was doing exactly that, getting creative with transitions!

I shot a music video where the lights go on and off every three seconds. It's essentially a fade in and fade out, about 200 of those in the video ;)

musicvid10 wrote on 5/25/2011, 1:04 PM

Try it on Vimeo instead. They are much better about blocking in fades.

essami wrote on 5/25/2011, 1:52 PM

Yes it's on Vimeo at the moment (private as it's not released yet). It's not bad at all if you look at it without going full screen. Just was wondering if there was anything more that could be done to enhance :) I don't use Youtube that much anymore due to the bad quality.

amendegw wrote on 5/25/2011, 2:24 PM

"Just was wondering if there was anything more that could be done to enhance"You could always host the video yourself. Click HERE for a 2Mbps version of musicvid's test video.

....Jerry