the resume on "video levels" is something like this:

camera "should" record 16-235 in the luminance channel (we simplify as "RGB 16-235)

all the time, video should be maintained like this. edit, process, export, keeping "RGB 16-235"

Vegas timeline SHOULD process video "as-is" not converting anything, and this is how it do (thankfully)

preview devices and output devices should "expand" the 16-235 to 0-255 for a proper levels viewing.

TV/dvd/blu-ray/youtube/video players on PC/etc DOES THIS BY DEFAULT, so, you get a proper viewing levels.

the external monitor preview on vegas DOES have 16-235 to 0-255 option for proper viewing.

the INTERNAL vegas preview DOES NOT HAVE 16-235 to 0-255 option.

so, as you said, i also add the levels FX to convert for better preview, but there's a plugin that do this better: PreviewLevels
http://www.vegasvideo.de/extension-previewlevels-en.html

it add the filter more easily, and disable it on export, so no worries to forget to disable the filter when needed.

so, in the end, vegas should have:

a preview option (better yet if "16>0" "235>255" in 2 options (as most cameras nowadays record with "superwhites", and you may want to keep it)

16-235 to 0-255 option for the histogram too

option to make the default "black" (when there nothing on the timeline) by default RGB16 (we need a track with RGB16 solid color to fix that.)

I installed that plugin, thank you. So when I compare the Original setting, to the PC setting, the PC setting has better contrast, looks good in the video preview window. So this means I am looking at the video how it will look when I encode it, correct? But I am still confused because the Handbrake tutorial video says to add the computer rgb to studio rgb filter before encoding. Since this plugin adds the PC levels filter (which I assume means computer rgb) to the video output fx, aren't these just cancelling each other out if I do that? Are you ever supposed to check either of the two boxes in the video scopes settings because they affect the waveform scope which just adds to the confusion. This is frustrating me so much that after 10 years, I still don't understand levels no matter how much I read posts, watch tutorials.

Have you read and memorized this and the links within?

Mike,
For the last time, these are completely separate approaches, each giving the same result (at least superficially).

They are NOT to be done together during the same project!
One or another, please. Choose your poison, and learn from your mistakes, just as we did.
Best.

malowz said, "the external monitor preview on vegas DOES have 16-235 to 0-255 option for proper viewing."

Then do as I do and just simply use an external monitor for correct viewing and you do not have to mess with filters and other stuff. If the external monitor needs16-235 to 0-255 then apply it. If not, then do not apply it.

Keep it simple!

Man O Man, this really twists me 'bout. I need a clear workflow concept to follow. I don't need to know the substrate PnP matrix of transistors to switch on my PC.

G

oh grazie do i know how you feel...

in the 'good old days' i stuck a tape in a vtr and checked the scopes. end of story. of course if some adjustment might have been needed,i twiddled a couple of knobs on a tbc and bingo, broadcast.

all my monitors were crt and calibrated regularly - and if the client had a problem i could guarantee it was with THEIR monitor, not my product.

now, well, i know how you feel (reprise)....

Actually, Leslie, I'm also about the NEW too. I recognise we should have respect for the simplicity of those "other" days. But this jungle of pathways needs a dose of the Steve Jobs Simple stick.

Look, even today, with newbies getting to grips with this fang-dangle, who DON'T have a knowledge of those other easy days, are blanching at this over complexity.

Because I question that which I regard as an unnecessarily confabulating, a really straightforward process, doesn't mean I can let it go.

Leslie, thanks for "sympathising", what I'm demanding is for a bright light of clarity to laser cut through this. It just HAS to simpler than this.

Cheers

Grazie

Any video device following the chain from BT. 709 to display related specs, for 8 bit video expects reference black at level 16 and reference white at level 235. Also any video devices like this must be able to carry video data from level 1 to 254. Below reference black and above reference white video levels use footroom and headroom which is a critical difference to computer levels which do not offer footroom and headroom (also the gamma differs).

Video cameras, DVD players, Blu-ray-Disc players, HDMI, HD-SDI and LCD display panels are also meant to use same reference levels and to be capable of using the given head- and footroom (with the very exception of in the end of the chain, the LCD panel display will be set to display reference black as darkest luminance possible, so anything below level 16 will be same darkest black as level 16).
If a video device would not offer head- and footroom beyond the reference levels (which would be the case if it would stretch 16–235 to 0–255) it would break the given specs.
Footroom is meant mainly for effective noise processing and carrying special data like the PLUGE signal. Headroom is meant for displaying colorless brightness brighter then reference white (light sources, reflections, specular hightlights).

Following these infos, if you want the Vegas internal preview to look similar like a TV LCD fed by a digital chain (video devices, no DVI), you need level 16 to be displayed blackest output possible. You also need to adjust gamma (Vegas internal preview uses gamma 2.2 and what a video LCD should use, is in the range of gamma 2.35 to 2.4). But you does not need to alter white level because the display should carry the headroom. Reference white does not equal peak white in the digital video domain!

Youtube is a tricky field because you won't have consistent levels after the video passed the player. For most cases it is true the player does not follow video rules but computer rules and is expecting reference black at level 0 and reference white at level 255 with no footroom and no headroom. Thus here the video reference levels are stretched.

Sigh ;)

Vegas internal preview passes levels as they are. It won't map pixel values for viewing adaption. The advantage is better quality control of your source video's properties and this is why I welcome ideas for other preview handling if them are offered as option – in addition to the given behaviour.

To be able to switch between different preview options, Antares made a Vegas extension which you can use to switch between legacy preview (no alteration), computer based preview (both reference levels are stretched, gamma of 2.2 untouched) and TV based preview (stretched black level, gamma adapted to TV's 2.35). If you find it useful, download and use it with Vegas Pro 12 or Vegas Pro 13, it's for free:

-> Antares PreviewLevels

Of course the use of this extension is just a workaround (but at least a flexible one because anyone could use individual settings if the given ones don't satisfy). Lots of pros and amateurs like to use this extension – so maybe one day SCS will give something else a try … ;)

.

well, i started off a few years ago (once i realised crt's were pretty much a goner) with a bm intensity pro first feeding my old sony hr trinitron, then a series of mid range ips panels.

with my last pc bowing out due to a lightening strike, and deciding i'd had enough of a 3 monitor set up i opted for a high rez 32" and fed my latest ips panel first from my gtx 650, then the onboard hd4600.

i've let vegas deal with levels, and i've been pretty content with the final output.

i've only done one tvc recently and the station had no problems with it.

since nearly all my work is now going out over the net / intranet / or file i'm not going to lose anymore hair (as if i had more to lose) over this 'levels' question - BUT, like grazie, i would dearly like a simplified (foolproof) workflow so i'd know if i'm right or wrong or just plain dumb...

Deleted by user

I think the easy way which still is correct in the sense of given video specs is to use correct reference levels and at the same time to clearly distinguish between reference and peak levels.

Then distinguish between the video and the computer domain.

Video:
Reference black = 16, with headroom down to 1 (used for vey special cases only, because there is no blacker than reference black)
Reference white = 235, with headroom up to 254 (you may use it, because actually there is brighter than reference white)

Computer:
Reference black = 0, no footroom available.
Reference white = 255, no headroom available.

In the video domain if your reference levels are set correctly during shooting, editing, post production, you don't really need to care too much about the peak levels if they differ from the reference levels. Thanks to foot- and headroom. Just notice in the end (when being displayed) headroom data will come through, footroom data will not.
And if you transfer video based data to the computer based domain you will lose your footroom and headroom.
Again – this is the easy way …

Broadcast delivery does always depend on individual requirements of the broadcasting station. They assume same reference levels for black and white (16 and 235) but requirements for the maximum peak levels allowed differ.

.

I've questioned my intelligence on this issue. It seems so simple, and it probably is, but confuses the heck out of me.

Add me to the list of folks desiring a well written workflow, or better yet, a YT video with a non-hothead instructor type lady or gentleman replying to the comments to clarify misunderstandings.

To summarize, one could:
1. Use the Computer RGB filter during editing, removing it before rendering; or,
2. Edit with no levels filter, and put the Studio RGB filter on the output before rendering; or,
3. Use an external preview, with the sRGB switch enabled.
4. Do nothing, if you don't care or cannot see the results of clipped levels, and you are not submitting your material for broadcast.

I'm weary of debating the relative merits of any particular solution, because there is such a fundamental lack of understanding of the issues. I do agree that Sony has been remiss in both its education and remediation responsibilities, and the burden seems to have fallen to the user base to figure it out for themselves.

Things that can (do) affect the results in some cases:
-- Nvidia graphics, which are routinely set wrong internally.
-- Camera shooting levels, which are all over the place.
-- Decoder libraries themselves, which seemingly operate unpredictably at times.
-- The VUI fullrange flag, which has spotty decoder support, and no way to tell if it is being honored or not.
-- Working with source that has already been rendered / muxed in another application (this is a big problem!).
-- Rendering to RGB codecs, including WMV and some legacy AVI and MOV formats.
-- Nonspecific system errors (usually traceable to the nut behind the keyboard).
-- The vector alignment of Venus with Mars during the retrograde lunar cycle, but only during rainstorms.

Note that the vast majority of footage from a billion or more devices behaves just the way we have come to expect -- it is shot at full range or modified full range, flagged as 601/709, and needs intervention at some point to reign in the levels for delivery.

Another way to look at levels is as a minor inconvenience, but a necessary one. Like TP, I choose to deploy it when everything else is finished.

I'm all in favor of a "soccer mom" preview switch, especially in the Movie Studio application, but don't ever take away my full range preview or manual control. I'm only interested in seeing everything that's on the footage, not in putting on a pair of horse blinders.



.

One thing I can't understand is why Vegas background black is illegal in a 1080p project. I hope most of us agree that this should be legal black like every other editor on the planet or at least default to legal black with the option for the other.

And now that Sony screwed up the color values of their media generator you need a math degree to put a 16,16,16, RGB black on the timeline background.

Again, the default Vegas tracks are 0 Alpha. They are not 0-0-0 RGB or 0-0-0-255 RGBA.

I don't know how Vegas could determine or predict whether we intend to render to 32 bit RGBA, and preserve the Alpha, or 24 bit RGB / YUV, and automatically place a blocking track there for us.

So why do most other editors render a fade to black as legal video in a 1080p project and not Vegas? I don't discount that some people may want illegal black but I would argue that the majority would benefit from legal black in these types of projects. In a program like movie studio you can't even check what your blacks are yet they are most likely giving you illegal blacks.

As stated in another post, I think there should be an easy option for those who want Vegas' preview screen to display 16-235. I also think there should be options available at render to limit values to 16-235 as well as eliminating superblack.

I'm assuming these options would satisfy most. But I personally only support these as OPTIONS. Other than the superblack elimination, I wouldn't use them. Like musicvid10, I want control over everything in my source. I'll handle the levels.

Many seem to have the opinion that other NLE's are handling levels "correctly." Maybe they are, I don't know. Level handling seems to be clear as mud to Premiere users also. This is the first post I found when I searched for "video levels in Premiere Pro" :
http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/935777

That sounds reasonable, I just wish Sony would do something about it as we've been debating this problems for years. And PLEASE add an option when rendering to make video levels that do not shift when bringing files into other programs like Premiere and After Effects.

One of the most interesting parts of that thread was the question: "How does Premiere handle a dissolve from a native RGB source and a YCrBr source?"

Answer given:
"I think it would depend on output as, from the comments by Premiere's engineer, they like staying native for as long as they can in the processing pipe. If it's for playback, YUV may be converted to RGB. If it's for output to a YUV-based format then the native RGB would probably be converted on the fly."

OK, what happens if the source Premiere identifies as RGB is camera footage at 16-255?

In Vegas the answer to that question is easy: It does the dissolve with the existing levels. You can adjust the levels of one or the other. Take your pick.

"I think there should be an easy option for those who want Vegas' preview screen to display 16-235. I also think there should be options available at render to limit values to 16-235 as well as eliminating superblack."

Ever tested Antares PreviewLevels extension? It adds exactly this to Vegas Pro (12 and 13).

.

This indeed is tricky in Vegas Pro. It is because it is not a fade to black. It is a fade to zero percent opacity. Thus making it easy to control fading from one layer to the next layer. But it makes simple fade to blacks more complicated.

This and any color management of internal generated media (especially background and titles) would really need a switch so it would offer either full swing or studio swing levels for the generated media to make work easier and faster.