VP13 vs PPro Render quality - Whoa!

Cliff Etzel wrote on 1/29/2015, 6:20 PM
Just finished a project for a client and having edited it in PPro CS6 at the time, I thought the final render looked soft/mushy. No matter what I did, it never looked quite right. Having read the discussion on the Handbrake script integration with VP13, I setup the one timeline and saved it so it could be imported into Vegas Pro 13 v428. Once I added the title graphics, denoise and transitions, I rendered out the VP13 timeline using the Handbrake script integration.

The image quality is night and day! The project rendered from Vegas Pro using the Handbrake script is far and away better looking to my eyes.

If I hadn't seen it with my own eyes, I wouldn't have believed it.

I'm still picking my jaw up off the ground at what I have witnessed with my own 2 eyes.

After having purchased an NVidia GTX 660ti to work with PPro CS6 in December thinking it was a "better" platform for editing, I'm now regretting not having given VP a chance to prove itself with a Radeon card. Can't afford the latest R9 290x cards, so what would the next best thing be? Radeon 6970? I"m sure @OldSmoke or @BruceUSA can hopefully chime in on this last part.

Comments

OldSmoke wrote on 1/29/2015, 6:34 PM
I had a HD6970 and it is pretty good card and fully supported in Vegas. I am not sure if the HD7950 still works or has the same issue as the R9 290 with MC AVC and Sony AVC.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Cliff Etzel wrote on 1/29/2015, 6:45 PM
@OldSmoke - 99% of my work is delivered as MP4's to the production houses I work with for web delivery so I'm using the Handbrake script to render out those final edits. Having said that - will a Radeon card improve timeline playback performance or is it purely for the MC AVC and SONY AVC rendering issues?

Also - does Handbrake make use of a GPU when rendering?
OldSmoke wrote on 1/29/2015, 6:54 PM
It does improve timeline performance and it will be used for frame serving to HB too. Frame serving is basically timeline playback frame by frame handed over to HB. Ever since we have aworking frame serving to HB I also didnt care much about MC AVC and Sony AVC and switched from Nvidia to AMD.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

BruceUSA wrote on 1/29/2015, 6:54 PM
Cliff.

HD6970 is over all best choice for you really. Vegas Pro love HD6970, it works on everything and everything and fast. If you care about MP4 rendering in Vegas and very good timeline performance. HD6970 is the one to get.

Intel i7 12700k @5.2Ghz all P Cores, 5.3@ 6 Core, Turbo boost 3 Cores @5.4Ghz. 4.1Ghz All E Cores.                                          

MSI Z690 MPG Edge DDR5 Wifi                                                     

TEAMGROUP T-Force Delta RGB 32GB DDR5 -6200                     

Samsung 980 Pro x4 Nvme .M2 1tb Pcie Gen 4                                     

ASRock RX 6900XT Phantom 16GB                                                        

PSU Eva Supernova G2 1300w                                                     

Black Ice GTX 480mm radiator top mount push/pull                    

MCP35X dual pump w/ dual pump housing.                                

Corsair RGB water block. RGB Fan thru out                           

Phanteks Enthoo full tower

Windows 11 Pro

Cliff Etzel wrote on 1/29/2015, 7:01 PM
@BruceUSA - I've found a new Sapphire Radeon 6970 on ebay here: http://is.gd/xNqBkR

I know nothing about the brand but the price is doable for me - any thoughts?

I would be installing the card on my x58 workstation running an x5670 hex core Xeon processor with 24GB Triple Channel RAM - I'm thinking this combined with the Radeon card would see an uptick in timeline/rendering performance???
BruceUSA wrote on 1/29/2015, 7:18 PM
Brand are really not matter. As a matter of preference. This card now a day should be under $120 used. When I had mine, Sapphire HD6970, this card are 11.5 inch long, be sure your case is big enough for it. Believe me, you will be very please with this card.

Intel i7 12700k @5.2Ghz all P Cores, 5.3@ 6 Core, Turbo boost 3 Cores @5.4Ghz. 4.1Ghz All E Cores.                                          

MSI Z690 MPG Edge DDR5 Wifi                                                     

TEAMGROUP T-Force Delta RGB 32GB DDR5 -6200                     

Samsung 980 Pro x4 Nvme .M2 1tb Pcie Gen 4                                     

ASRock RX 6900XT Phantom 16GB                                                        

PSU Eva Supernova G2 1300w                                                     

Black Ice GTX 480mm radiator top mount push/pull                    

MCP35X dual pump w/ dual pump housing.                                

Corsair RGB water block. RGB Fan thru out                           

Phanteks Enthoo full tower

Windows 11 Pro

musicvid10 wrote on 1/29/2015, 7:25 PM
If there is scaling or deinterlace going on I definitely think it will look better from HB.
The encoders themselves are indistinguishable above 10 Mbps.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 1/29/2015, 7:41 PM
Thanks @BruceUSA and @OldSmoke
NormanPCN wrote on 1/29/2015, 8:02 PM
Not at all surprising that the x264 encoder is better than the native AVC/H.264 encoders in Vegas and/or Premiere. The lower the bitrate the greater the difference. Above a certain bitrate point you will not see any difference.
dxdy wrote on 1/29/2015, 8:10 PM
Cliff, the 660ti is no slouch. I have one in my i7-3770k and it is a performer. Vegas 13 likes it, too.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 1/29/2015, 9:04 PM
@NormanPCN - I'm typically delivering at around 6mb setting and the render quality of either PPro CS6 or Media Encoder has left me disappointed. All the media hoopla about Adobe's products and the renders are mediocre at best. I've also battled audio sync issues with PluralEyes and PPro and they are not resolved even though Red Giant is well aware of the issue for me and other users. I'm hoping that issue doesn't rear it's ugly head for me as I rely upon dual sync audio extensively.

@dxdy - As far as using the 660ti with PPro CS6 it appears to work very well, but given that when I have 3 tracks of video 2 tracks of audio and some title graphics and my frame rate drops I wonder what settings I am missing that might improve my editing experience.

Thoughts?
[r]Evolution wrote on 2/1/2015, 3:40 PM
Your title insinuates that VP13's render is better than PrCC's render but, you're actually comparing Handbrake's render to PrCC's.

Curious, did you also try frameserving to Handbrake from Premiere and compare?
dxdy wrote on 2/1/2015, 4:23 PM
@Cliff - The only suggestion I have is to experiment with the Dynamic Ram Preview (Options, preferences, video tab). For some people it works best at zero, others like 64 or 200, and still others 1024. No one is quite sure why it makes a difference, but it often does.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 2/2/2015, 10:25 AM
@[r]Evolution - I've tried every iteration of frameserving from PPro as it was the first thing I looked at after the results from Vegas to Handbrake - No matter what I tried, Frameserving failed from PPro CS6 to Handbrake. I followed the instructions exactly on the Frameserving website and not once was I able to get it to work correctly.

Even with that - the audio sync issues I'm experiencing with PluralEyes and PPro have become a source of frustration for me and other users. I receive regular emails from the Red Giant discussion forums and other users are experiencing the same issues and no resolution has been found so far. For me in my, that has become a deal breaker.

Given the scope and cost of PPro and AME CS6, one would think the render quality would be stellar - my experience dictates otherwise.
Laurence wrote on 2/2/2015, 1:37 PM
I won't judge software I don't have, but I will say that these frameserved renders (via the automated script) are hands down the best looking renders I've ever seen.
Marc S wrote on 2/2/2015, 2:29 PM
I prefer Vegas for projects requiring crossfades as they are much smoother than Premiere. But for mostly cuts projects I prefer Premiere. I find the also text engine in Premiere and especially After Effects better than Vegas in quality and functionality.

As far as rendering you can easily export a master file from Premiere to render your H264 in Vegas. Only certain codecs work though without black/white issues dropping or raising. I usually use the MXF OP1a codec (XDCAMHD 4:2:2:) when I want to export something from Premiere into Vegas. Quality is great and levels translate over fine.
farss wrote on 2/2/2015, 2:56 PM
[I]"But for mostly cuts projects I prefer Premiere."[/I]

No question Vegas is faster. If you want to get something out the door as fast as possible then Vegas is the hands down winner. My issue with this is it encourages sloppy editing. When I have had critical eyes looking over my shoulder I've begun to appreciate the value of the old school workflow. Kind of like the difference between using power tools and hand tools for cabinet making.

[I]" I find the also text engine in Premiere and especially After Effects better than Vegas in quality and functionality."[/I]

Agreed. In fairness given Adobe's history with print media one would expect this but they've done an excellent job of carrying that over to the video world. By comparison Vegas and text is a rolling disaster. I'm sure there's something in V13 that'll produce as a good result as anything in Ppro however one has to find it, pray it doesn't cause a crash and then wonder if it'll be in the next version.

[I]"I usually use the MXF OP1a codec (XDCAMHD 4:2:2:) when I want to export something from Premiere into Vegas."[/I]

That works well for me too. I'm now using Ppro for anything beyond basic text and exporting it using that option then I bring it into my quick and dirty Vegas project.

I do like Adobe Media Encoder's approach and interface. What SCS has done with the render GUI in the latest versions is bewildering.

Bob.
Laurence wrote on 2/2/2015, 5:59 PM
I like Vegas's speed and see no reason to do it any other way. Extra steps don't make me more careful. They're just extra steps.

As far as the text generator goes, I just use third party text generators for anything beyond simple text. That or if it's static, Photoshop. I was using Heroglyph for quite a while, but now I am giving the new Protitler 3 Ultimate a go.

As far as rendering workflow goes, I can see very little reason to use anything but the frameserved script. It gives me quality superior to what either SCS or Adobe can give me directly.

I still refuse to buy into Adobe's subscription plan. Yes I could get it discounted for the first year, but then what?
Cliff Etzel wrote on 2/2/2015, 6:46 PM
I prefer to keep things simple on L3 graphics/text generation and have found the basic text generator in Vegas Pro more than meets my needs (so far) unless I need something else then I opt for Photoshop created text graphics for L3's.
Marc S wrote on 2/2/2015, 7:17 PM
"I still refuse to buy into Adobe's subscription plan. Yes I could get it discounted for the first year, but then what?"

I'm in agreement on that. I'm currently using CS6 which is decent though I would like some of the enhancements in the latest versions. Hopefully Adobe will rethink their policy but I'm not holding my breath.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that on projects with lots of files Premiere bins and media management are far superior to Vegas and do not misbehave like Vegas.

Gotta love Vegas audio though... Premiere audio is terrible.
OldSmoke wrote on 2/2/2015, 7:21 PM
By the time I get something on the timeline in PPro I am about to render in Vegas.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Cliff Etzel wrote on 2/2/2015, 10:29 PM
"By the time I get something on the timeline in PPro I am about to render in Vegas. "

@OldSmoke - I discovered this on a recent project I shot and edited. I had a 48 hour turnaround once the shoot was completed and typically takes me on average 6 hours to edit and deliver first version in PPro. Same type of video, took me 3.5 hours to edit and render via frameserving to Handbrake - with superior results.

And for those who ask if I've tried frameserving in PPro - tried, YES, does it work? Not from what I've tried so far.

Can't wait to get that Radeon 6970 card as apparently Photoshop performs better utilizing OpenCl over NVidia CUDA
[r]Evolution wrote on 2/4/2015, 6:56 PM
By the time I get something on the timeline in PPro I am about to render in Vegas.

Either:
A huge exaggeration -or- You simply know Vegas better than Premiere... since all you have to do in Pr is drag/drop from Explorer to the timeline.
Marc S wrote on 2/4/2015, 7:33 PM
I used to think that way about Vegas being so much faster until I learned how to edit in a more Premiere way. Now there are certain things about Vegas timeline I think are brilliant but I also find Premiere very smart in other ways.