VV.... NOT

MJhig wrote on 12/19/2004, 6:45 PM
Please folks, it may seem a small issue to some but Sony changed the name from Vegas Video to simply Vegas for a reason. It's Vegas X now, it hasn't been been VV since version 3. Vegas is much more than a video app. and for all of our sakes should be recognized as such.

It's V4 or V5, not VV anything since verson 3. This may seem like small potatoes to some but it's huge to the audio market.

Vegas has a stigma as a video app. degrading it in the audio market, "Oh, that video app.?". I think most of us would agree that it's much more than that.

You know, the marketing schlock...



nickle wrote on 12/19/2004, 6:53 PM
Vegas needs another word in the title to distinguish it from Las Vegas.

Something like Vegas Professional (to distinguish it from Movie Studio) would be good.

But not Vegas Pro because that would be a Las Vegas Prostitute.
Spot|DSE wrote on 12/19/2004, 7:50 PM
Sony didn't change the name.
Vegas Video became Vegas only after version 3.0 when the decision was made to not have 2 separate applications, Vegas Audio and Vegas Video. It simply became "Vegas" at that time. When Sony acquired the software, it was already called "Vegas" without the "video."
Blaming Sony for that is pretty far off the mark. It was indeed a marketing decision, but it never would have been called Vegas Video had there not already been 2 versions of Vegas Audio in existence prior to the video component.
Rednroll wrote on 12/19/2004, 8:47 PM
No not the case Spot. First there was a Vegas Pro v1.0. For Version 2.0, there was "Vegas Audio 2.0" and "Vegas Video 2.0". Actually, these where 2 idientical apps, and only differentiated themselves if you entered your "Vegas Audio" serial number or your "Vegas Video" serial number upon installation. Vegas Video 2.0 had all the audio features as Vegas Audio 2.0, but added the additionality of unlimited Video tracks, while Vegas Audio 2.0 only had 1 video track. Since Vegas Video 2.0 had more features than the Vegas Audio 2.0, and 2 seperate apps that where almost identical confused both the audio user and video user, therefore the "Vegas Video" name was kept for v3.0 to keep the name notoriety. Thus Vegas "audio" name was dropped and "Vegas Video 3.0" name was continued....still under the release of Sonic Foundry. Many of us audio users complained because of what MJ mentions above, because Vegas is a worthy audio DAW, and sticking us audio users with the "Video" brand name made us audio users look a little foolish using a "video" app for professional audio work. Especially, since we had been using it since Vegas Pro v1.0, when it was strictly developed to be an audio app. Sonic Foundry then decided to drop the end label all together when it released "Vegas 4.0". "Vegas 4.0" was acquired there afterwards by Sony. "Vegas 5.0" was released under the Sony brand name and continued with the same naming theme.

I agree "Vegas" by itself is a little bland, and leaves you yearning to fill in the plant. I think it should rightfully be called "Vegas Multimedia Pro" or "Vegas A/V Pro".
Spot|DSE wrote on 12/19/2004, 9:33 PM
And so your point is?....I said there were two audio versions before Sonic Foundry chose to get rid of the Video in the name. You've just illustrated my point. Vegas Audio 2 was prior to Vegas 3, where things became the same.
Yes, the dual moniker was dropped with Vegas 3. In other words, it ended there. We're saying the same thing, but you're saying it started with 4, I'm saying it ended with 3. Same difference.

While you and a few others that have been around a while might think just "Vegas" is bland, it's the name that the video industry has ALWAYS used to describe the application. At tradeshows, it's very rare to hear someone say "Is this Vegas Video?" But you always hear folks say "Is that Vegas?" or "Is that Final Cut?" rather than "Final Cut Pro." Just like folks say that they edit on Avid. They rarely say that it's Express, or DS, or whatever, unless pressed for more information.
I don't know why people are still hammering on the name. Get over it already. It's been 5 years now. Roy gave it the name it has, it's the brand folks recognize, and to mess with it now, especially as it rises higher than ever and starts to gain more momentum, would be a foolish move, not to mention confusing.
Get past the name already.
Go make some great video. With whatever you want to call it.
Stonefield wrote on 12/20/2004, 1:12 AM
.....just as long as they Don't put a cute litte " i " in front and call it


I'll be happy.
InterceptPoint wrote on 12/20/2004, 6:23 AM
Spot wrote: "it's the brand folks recognize, and to mess with it now, especially as it rises higher than ever and starts to gain more momentum ..."

I hope this is true. Based on the NAB and West Coast DV Expo shows that I attended, Sony is certainly giving us the big push.

Question for Spot: Is there any anecdotal evidence that Vegas is really making measurable headway against FCP, Premiere Pro, Edius and the lower end versions of Avid? Where do you think Vegas ranks in this group in terms of market penetration? Are we bigger than Edius. Are we catching Premiere. Will Vegas ever approach FCP?

I'm lookiing for sales figures and trends and/or industry chit chat.
Rednroll wrote on 12/20/2004, 6:49 AM
Sorry Spot, I misinterpreted your original post. We're not hung up about the name except when we see the name misused and called "VV" time and time again. A few of us audio users stamped our feet pretty hard to get the "video" with no reference to the audio out of the name. Therefore we don't like it when it gets called something it's not. How would you like it if everyone started to refer to you as "Spit" for now on?
Spot|DSE wrote on 12/20/2004, 6:57 AM
Ahh...Billyboy has called me much worse than "Spit." So have others.
Difference is, one is a personal insult, that's likely to get me deep in your face. The other is a product that was originally called something, and it's marketing must have been great, because people remember it. Even though it has a new name now. My name never was "Spit."
In fact, when my nickname was given to me nearly 20 years ago, I was insulted. But I got over it, and now embrace it. So it's kind of a bad analogy.

People still grump about the name "Vegas" period. I'm sorta tired of hearing it. It has a name, for wont of anything else, and it's a name that's gonna be around for a long while to come. Get used to it already.

It's not appropriate for me to share numbers. Yes, Vegas is VERY much climbing in attention. At DV Expo, it was easily the most noticed application. At CES, the Vegas classes I'm teaching are full. At NAMM, Iexpect to see a huge interest both in the video and audio sides of the application. Same thing with Sundance Film Festival. And at NAB, Vegas will also be receiving a lot of attention, we've got a couple of Vegas tracks for the first time, in the Post Production Conference.
Vegas is a buzzword on everyone's lips, whether they're buying it or not.
pb wrote on 12/20/2004, 7:06 AM
At the risk of being ostrasized I admit Snow White Productions (swpvideo.com) uses Premiere 6.5 (Canopus Storm2), Premiere Pro 1.5 (Matrox RT X100) in addition to Vegas. Regarding the previous poster's question about market penetration/share I sugggest that until the day comes when Adobe is able to release a manifestation of Premiere that does not crash repeatedly Vegas will continue its rapid growth.

Ever tried "Edius"? It came with the Storm2 bundle and, frankly, I could not get comfortable with it.

I tried the software version of AVID and got so frustrated I gave up on it.

I use an AVID Media COmposer at my day job and it is a great tool. However, it is so far beyond my financial reach for personal use I don't consider it practical. AVID Mojo is more affordable BUT Vegas on an Industrial strength PC will run just as fast, I am sure. AVID has its place but since my next camera/deck for personal use will be the Sony Pro HDV combo, SDI I/O is a non-issue for me, thus making Vegas my best choice.
Rednroll wrote on 12/20/2004, 7:22 AM
"Difference is, one is a personal insult, that's likely to get me deep in your face. The other is a product that was originally called something, and it's marketing must have been great, because people remember it."

To some there is no difference , the name Vegas "Video" is an insult, thus my point. It's an insult to anyone who used the product from day one for audio and continued to stick by that product despite working in an audio environment and having your client ask you, "what app are you using?"...ahhhh "Vegas"...."you mean Vegas Video, that Video app?"....."ahhhh...yeah...that's the one". The fact that the marketing was great is part of the problem and is like continously putting salt on a wound. In my opinion it was one of the worst marketing decision ever made for the product and has pigeon holed Vegas. Every audio user who uses Vegas and mentions it to users currently using Nuendo, Pro Tools, and Sonar, will tell you the same thing. Go over to the Vegas audio forum and mention to them that the name of Vegas is being changed back to "Vegas Video". I bet that would be enough of a straw to break the camels back, where you'ld see everyone throw their hands up and move to Sonar, and you'ld hear nothing but cricket sounds over in that forum.

"But I got over it, and now embrace it. So it's kind of a bad analogy."

Not really, haven't come to embrace the name "Vegas Video" yet, but if you're willing to learn to embrace the name "Spit" just the same, I'll be here to promote it for you....if not then let's not continue to embrace the name Vegas "Video".
ClipMan wrote on 12/20/2004, 8:13 AM
...the name should be "Vegas Linear Audio Video Tool Used By Everyone..." ... or VLAVTUBE for short ...
Chienworks wrote on 12/20/2004, 8:35 AM
Vegas does linear now too????? Kewl beans!
Spot|DSE wrote on 12/20/2004, 8:38 AM
Give me a break.
You're honestly suggesting that because a few people can't get past calling the application Vegas Video (as that's what it was originally named) that people are gonna jump ship? Because some people can't call it anything else in their mind? Puh-lease! Are intelligent people really that petty?
This thread started out by someone complaining that Sony changed the name of the app. Is HE gonna jump ship now that it's been made clear it's called 'Vegas" and has been for a couple of years now?

Hmmmm.....Scott Tissue....Still in business even though everyone calls it "Kleenex," Oasis Cases, thriving in business, even though everyone calls them "Anvil Cases," Mr Kleen Window Cleaning spray, still in business, even though everyone calls it "Windex," Every computer that's not an Apple still in business, even though truly only IBM's are "PC's", so I just don't get it.
Sonic Foundry changed the name of the product. Rightfully so, IMO.
Sony has continued with the rightful name. That's the name that they, and I promote. But there will always be those that know this application as Vegas Video, whether it's incorrect or not. I see it at every trade event, I see it in the forums, and I see it on personal websites. It's not my crusade to get in people's faces and tell them they're wrong. I'll simply use the correct name and hope they get the hint.

I would daresay I'm as close as anyone to Vegas, closer by far than most. I can't see how anyone in a sane mind could possibly be offended or insulted at someone calling Vegas "Vegas Video." Then again, there are those that live their lives in pettiness, and are destined to find something wrong with everything anywhere. If you are THAT passionate about the product's name to the point you are deeply and personally offended that others might wrongfully add the word "Video" to the word "Vegas" when it was there originally for 3 years, then I respectfully suggest you get a real life outside the virtual world. The quality of the product is not determined by the name affixed to it. The product doesn't take offense to what it's called by those not in the know. On the other hand, calling me a name other than my own with deliberated intent on insult, is liable to create serious trouble. To satisfy the pettipointers out there:
I hearby nominate the name "SU-ME" for Sony Ultimate Media Editor"
And I'll keep calling it "Vegas 5."
reidc wrote on 12/20/2004, 1:19 PM
"Vegas Video", "Vegas Audio." The problem is not the suffix. The problem is the word "Vegas" itself. Now, those who KNOW the app don't care what it's called at this point. Those who don't know the app cast derision upon it because "Vegas" connotes "cheesy" to many people. It's just that simple. "Garish" is another synonym people attach to the word "Vegas." To say this isn't so is just looking at the word with blinders on. This is mostly a marketing issue, of course. But that can be everything. If people are concerned about the name, it is only because they want to see the app gain prominence & widespread use, and perhaps the name has been a hinderance. I know that it has taken me more than a year to convince people that it's a serious application, and a lot of that had to do with them not being able to get past the name. I always call it "Sony Digital's Vegas." It's wordy but it attaches the Sony name to the product and people tend to get past their predjudices a little quicker. Apple is a marketing master. The name "Final Cut Pro" is marketing genius. What's in a name? Back in the late 1960's, ESSO spent something like ten million dollars to come up with "Exxon", and those are late '60's dollars. The name of a product matters to consumers, just as it matters to professionals. If this issue keeps coming up, it may be for good reason and this shouldn't be ignored. The real question is this: is the name of any given product preventing it from gaining wider acceptance in its target market? It might not be a bad idea for some basic market research on Sony's part.
Spot|DSE wrote on 12/20/2004, 1:33 PM
I won't disagree with you on your points at all. However, the original point of the thread was that Sony had changed the name of the application, when they haven't. Whether Vegas is a good name or bad name is another discussion entirely.
nickle wrote on 12/20/2004, 1:57 PM
A key point would be Sonic Foundry.

Sonic is synonymous with sound, hence AUDIO.

Sonic Foundry Vegas spells out a primarily Audio application.

The Sony name is synonymous with everything Sony does.

That association gives Vegas more credibility in my opinion.

And I will not be bullied.
ClipMan wrote on 12/20/2004, 2:06 PM
>>Vegas does linear now too?????<<

...well, if it doesn't, it should ... I'm tired of non-linear editors ... bring back linear editing and VLAVTUBE will soar ...
reidc wrote on 12/20/2004, 2:33 PM
Spot, I guess my post was a long winded way of saying that I agree with your position, BUT that I think there are other fish to fry when it comes to labelling or naming the product.
ronaldf wrote on 12/20/2004, 4:01 PM
I'm glad I'm not a professional. I just click on the little orange icon and start happily editing away. I suppose if I were a profesional, I could rename the icon to something slick. ...."click'......
scissorfighter wrote on 12/20/2004, 4:17 PM
Right on ronaldf. This argument reminds me of wearing Nike sneakers back in high school. If it doesn't say Nike on the side, you're not one of the cool kids. Only after years of maturation do you realize that it doesn't matter what the label on your shoes says as long as you can dance.
Grazie wrote on 12/20/2004, 10:28 PM
I'm still wearing Dunlop "Green Flash" ! HAH! . .Anybody else? . . In fact I'm off to the Gym wearing a battered pair that are just about holding up after 5 years of punishment . . .. well . . not too much punishment . . conveyed by my physique . . . .

nickle wrote on 12/20/2004, 10:51 PM
Is "gym" a British term for "pub"?
Grazie wrote on 12/20/2004, 11:10 PM
Ah! Been found out! . . Nice one Nickle! . . G
Rednroll wrote on 12/21/2004, 7:05 AM
"However, the original point of the thread was that Sony had changed the name of the application, when they haven't."

It seems you missed the point of the post. The point wasn't that "Sony" changed the name. That's really a side point. I understood it as Sony is just the current owner, thus just a point of reference. The point is people keep calling the app Vegas Video....or even worse Vegas Video 5.0, and the name of the app is not Vegas video....thus the title of the thread "VV....NOT". The name is "Vegas". That's the point.

"You're honestly suggesting that because a few people can't get past calling the application Vegas Video (as that's what it was originally named) that people are gonna jump ship?"

Sorry, it was not "originally" called "Vegas Video", it was originally called "Vegas Pro" and was purchased by many audio users at that time because it was strictly an audio app. And yes this made quite a few users upset....when it was solely changed to "Vegas Video 3.0". A name like "Vegas Video" to an audio user means one thing. Future development is not going to happen on the audio side!!! Thus yes a user will most definitely jump ship because of the name. So yes, I am "honestly" suggesting that, because the facts are there, glaring a user in the face. If Sonic Foundry wasn't concerned about about losing/confusing current audio users or not attracting future audio users for Vegas, because of the name, then I guess they would have kept the name as "Vegas Video". Afterall, it's "just a name" right Spit? So why change it at all?

I'm not one of the users that would jump because of the name, because I work a little more closely with the Sony audio folks, therefore I'm a little more in touch with the future development of the product. While the majority of the users who don't have this priveledge would have a pretty oblique viewpoint when all of a sudden their audio multitrack of choice changed into a Video editing app. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Why was this post even started by MJ if the name doesn't bother anyone? Why are we continuing this conversation if it doesn't matter? The fact is that it does matter. This can be seen in this thread, and the other 100 threads in the audio community when Vegas was solely named "Vegas Video 3.0" in the first place. This was a marketing blunder at it's worst and I hope you have no connection with Vegas's marketing if you can't see that.