Maybe this will help :)

I think Sony should take a play out of the Prince book, come up with a symbol nobody understands and call it "The NLE formerly known as Vegas Video"

KB

Spit Said:
"and the application is marketed as "Vegas 5.""

Red Said:
The name is "Vegas". That's the point.

Hey, thanks for jumping onto the same topic, that's what the original discussion was about....It's NOT Vegas Video....or "VV". We're not asking for a name change, just call it by it's correct name.

[edit]
It's no more just "Vegas" than it isn't "Vegas Video" Red. If you're gonna argue semantics, then argue them intelligently and with credibility rather than stooping to name-calling.

I don’t care what people call the software I use nor do I care about the name of the software that resides on the computer that resides in the safe, warm, dry home in which I live – complete with indoor plumbing and electricity – at the end of the day, it just doesn’t matter. The very day it does, I hope that someone thumps me upside the head and reminds me just where my priorities should really be.

What do I care about? I care about the smiles on the faces of the children I saw last night when we dropped off a load of Christmas toys at a shelter for battered women and their children. I care about the grateful look of appreciation I saw on the faces of the homeless people I helped serve a Thanksgiving meal to. Right now what I care about most is my upcoming opportunity to work with Habitat for Humanity and the small but meaningful part I’ll be able to play in making someone else’s life a little better.

I certainly don’t have any clients who care about the name of the product(s) I use. All they care about is whether or not I deliver the goods.

I have friends and co-workers who swear by FCP, Avid, or Premiere Pro – they’re happy with what they use, I’m happy with what I use and NOBODY cares and we don’t waste precious time discussing a non-issue – I think it’s time to put this thread to rest… please let it go.

Hello, is this thing on? I thought you where finally getting the point. I'm not going into any symantics arguments. I'm stating the name of the app is "Vegas" so call it that. I didn't say anything about "Vegas 5" as being objectionable, thus this is part of it's current name. It isn't "Vegas Video 5". So if you have any shirts that say that on it....then Yes...please throw them away or use them to wash your car.

" If you're gonna argue semantics, then argue them intelligently and with credibility rather than stooping to name-calling."

Again...not arguing symantics, the only point is not to include the name "Video" in the title because as I previously mentioned it pigeon holes the product as strictly a video app, and it's much more than that. I thought you where a pretty smart guy before Spot, where I didn't have to break everything down and explain it to you. Thus, the name change reference from Spot to Spit, was attempting to show you the same analogy as calling "Vegas 5", "Vegas Video 5", which it is not. Calling it that is a insult to some of it's users, that use Vegas for tasks other than Video.....as is calling you "Spit". It was not a ploy of "stooping to name-calling". It was an analogy that I hoped you would be able to figure out on your own. You have proven me wrong by side-tracking the discussion by throwing out a "Vegas 5" argument point, which I never mentioned as being objectionable.

Let me summarize this so we can start to talk about the same thing and will probably agree.

Summary:
1. The name of the app is NOT "VV"
2. The name of the app is NOT "Vegas Video"
3. The name of the app is NOT "Vegas Video 5"
4. The name of the app is NOT "Vegas Video v5.0"
5. The name of the app is NOT "Vegas Audio".
6. The name of the app is NOT "VA"
7. If you are referreing to the app as any of the above 6 names or any derivitive with the reference to "Video" or "Audio", then please stop because that is not it's name.
8. The name of the app IS "V5"
9. The name of the app is "Vegas"
10. The name of the app is "Vegas 5"
11. The name of the app is "Vegas v5.0"
12. Please when you refer to the app use any of the above references 8-11, or a derivative of those excluding any reference to a singular media type like "Audio" and "Video".

Am I clear enough on the viewpoint of the post yet?

"I’m happy with what I use and NOBODY cares and we don’t waste precious time discussing a non-issue – I think it’s time to put this thread to rest… please let it go."

HERE HERE! I second that emotion......err motion

Amen, JMerideth. I'm more than a little embarassed now.

I sure do love Vegas Video 5.0 (JK, JK, JK) I just had to say it.

Sorry if I ruffle any feathers.

Vegas is great.

I don't really care what it's called. It's great.

Summary:

Exactly! Sorry for the generalization when I said "Sony" renamed the app., that was for simplicity's sake, I'm well aware of the chronology.

Just by the nature of this thread's twists and turns, it's a glaring example of the problem. Sure, the issue is much less significant than the poor or any other humanity issue including attacking nations under false presences but so is anything in the entertainment field compared to that criteria. I didn't expect to get a warm response with my post in this forum for the most part, just hoped to garner some understanding sines in the end it benefits the whole.

As I said, it's a marketing issue, not now in the hands of those a Sonic Foundry who were originally responsible for it but now in the hands of how the public perceives the product.

Most of you don't have the experience of having new clients approach you initially with "Do you use ProTools?".

As much as I hate the fact that what tool one uses is of no significance to the end result and the finished product should ultimately be the deciding measurement, that's not the reality in the real world. Video guys should be especially sympathetic to this as I'm sure many have had new clients ask are you using Avid, FCP etc. resulting in the client moving on when you've had to say "No, Vegas".

Right or wrong, public perception does matter. Just look at motorcycles for example... public perception is Harley Davidson is the epitome of motorcycles even though in actuality, they are at the bottom of all performance and reliability charts while at or close to the top of the cost chart. There are no Harleys in Formular 1, Superbike, Motorcross, Enduro, X-Motocross racing because they can't compete but that means little to the general public, they know what they hear. I could go on and on including pop music, films, literature etc.

Sure the public doesn't know better but they don't care that they don't know better, they spend their money where they think they should.

Now take that to the next level, not only unknowledgeable musicians nix the studio that uses Vegas but perspective engineers also ignore using Vegas for the same product recognition reasons I mentioned above, add to that the majority of educational institutions teach exclusively on ProTools, FCP and Avid.

This thread wasn't meant to question the "Vegas" name at all, that's a given at this point, it's a call to all Vegas users (video users being the majority) to at a minimum refer to it as it is... Vegas version X, for all our sakes. It's that distasteful, sad but true marketing thing.

MJ

Call it Vegas 5.0b and I'll continue using it.
Call it Vegas 5.0c and I'll download and use it.
Call it Vegas 6.0 and I'll purchase the upgrade and use it.

Ah, me too, but when a client goes elsware because you use Vegas, how's that grab you? You don't use FCP? You don't use Pinnacle? In the audio field... "You use a video app., VV something?

Few of us, if any, have the name recognition luxury SPOT has.

There again it's not a jealousy/envy issue, more power to him, it's a matter of fact issue.

It's all about how Vegas is marketed, refereed to, simple as that.

MJ

Sorry to burst that bubble, but it has little to do with my name. Some of our clients never have heard of me or my music and video career. But they do look at what we've done. When they see posters on the wall for reasonably large films, that helps too.
If the client asks "Do you use ProTools" or "Do you use Avid?" The answer is always "Yes, if you want us to." The next question is whether they want us to do the best job quickly, or the best job slowly. We do have ProTools, and we do have Avid, and other tools as well. We have a major software corporation out of Germany right now that demanded we use FCP for a tradeshow exhibit job that will show at CES and NAB. We gave them a bid based on FCP, and gave them a bid based on "Sundance Media Group using the tools of choice." Nothing was said about Vegas. They asked for a sample of our work in the "tool of choice." We got the bid based on tool of choice. They have no idea that we're working in Vegas. They have no idea if we're working in FCP. They just want great vid and they want it fast, and at the price quoted.
I've had a few morons push the issue, sure. Once in a while there is a client that has a son or friend or cousin or uncle in the biz that claims Avid or FCP is better. First question is "why aren't they doing this gig? Next question is, "Do you really care what kind of screwdriver your mechanic uses?" And if they really care what screwdriver the mechanic is using, I don't want them for a client anyway. Clients like that cost you more money than they'll make you. They're just not worth it. Kinda like having your mother in law living with you, IMO.

You see Douglas, the majority of us don't have that luxury. I don't lie nor mislead.,,. My "bubble" is far from busted.

The point is far from your post. I respect you and your work. I like all you have don that I've experienced.

This thread is simply about not calling Vegas VV, Vegas Video... you are invulnerable to the consequences of otherwise. No problem with your success... you deserve it. I just wish you could be more sensitive to the less fortunate and on the other hand realize the marketing connotations I'm suggesting for the sake of others.

MJ

MJhig,
I'm just as vulnerable as anyone else. I am sensitive to the name. I don't have the power to change it, so I don't spend time trying to. I don't know that it should change now that it's known. I tried to make the change when I was in Madison for a year several years ago, working closely with the marketing and engineering teams. Obviously I failed to make a difference. But like it or not, it's growing, it's gaining acceptance, and it's likely not going to change as a result of that growth. If ABC affiliates, the military Combat Camera Group, NBC affiliates, Steve Odekirk, Sundance Film School, and many, many other production groups can move ahead with it...well...it's hard to argue with those successes.
No one is any less vulnerable than anyone else.
FWIW, my first recording was recorded on a Tascam 4 track cassette that cost 600.00. It went gold. No one cared what I used. My second album was recorded on a DAP10 DAT. Cheap, junky DAT, but it was portable. It didn't go gold. Third was recorded on an 8 track cassette machine. It didn't go gold either. I didn't achieve another gold until I did a record that cost 60K to make. My point is, I was successful with crap gear, I was successful with great gear. Content is king. Build a reel of good stuff, a reel that impresses, and THAT is what counts to clients. Clients don't often ask what we use, because they don't care. If they have confidence in you and your work, you could do the work with Movie Studio. In fact, I recently did a gig for Encore Attractions on a Broadway promo, and did MOST of it on Movie Studio because I was working on the Movie Studio book. Most clients know it's not the brand of hammer you hold, it's the hand that holds it.
Since you can't change the name of the software, build a reel that showcases YOU and your talents, not the tricks of the gear.

I miss that darn "anvil guy"...




Ok, I know where's the exit ! ¦ P

The only time a client has asked us about gear was a few weeks ago a knowledgeable guy wanted to know if we shot with BetaSP 4:3 or "digital 16:9 AND was concerned about the lens - is it Broadcast or low end. I don't think the average person gives a sh*t what you edit with unless he/she wants to alternate between editing bays in two cities and one has AVID or something. But then we work mostly for oil companies and they are more interested in Refining and Mining than video equipment. I am using Vegas on a job for one major Oil Sands company; Jina my wife is cutting for another company with her Matrox RT X100/Premiere Pro 1.5.. Only difference the clients notice is Jina's NTSC monitor is a 16:9 20" whereas mine is an old 14N2U 4:3.

Peter

Spot,
I believe myself and MJ agree with your points 100%. I've said the same thing as you in past posts regarding the name to other users. Unfortunately, name familiarity is something we all have to deal with when attracting new clients. Even in your own response you admit to this. Let's say those new clients you are trying to attrack are familiar with people they've done work with on an Avid in the past, and have never heard of "Vegas". The new client is relatively unfamiliar with any of the work you've done in the past. They're also unfamiliar with the other guys work they're considering, but he uses an Avid. You use Vegas. The bid for the job is relatively close in price between their 2 considerations. Who do you think they will choose for the job? The editor who has the tool, which they know has been used by other pros, or the editor who uses the tool they have never heard of and unsure of it's quality and performance? I think that answer is obvious.

Now the same thing happens for audio jobs of Protools vs. Vegas. Except now let's double compound that by the name associated with it as "Vegas Video". Now not only are they unsure of the tool you're using being Vegas in comparison to Protools, but now you're using a tool associated with primarily being a video editor and you're doing audio work. The majority of users who use Vegas as a video editor don't even realize the power of Vegas's audio features as being a complete DAW tool. How do you think Joe client is going to react when they realize you're using "Vegas", the video editor? They're eccentially going to close the door before they even take a step in. Now with clients you've worked with and have built a relationship with, that's another situation. They've saw your work, are familiar with what you're using and could care less about the screwdriver you choose, because they know what to expect already. These are 2 completely different scenarios.

Ask any video editor in this forum that works with outside clients to put the same shoes on and see how they would react. Let's make a hypothetical situation and say Vegas, was never called "Vegas Video". Let's say it was called "Vegas Audio" and incorporated Video features as it did. Let's say, "Vegas Audio" built up a strong reputation as being an alternative competitor to Protools for audio work. Let's say clients looking for video work knew of Vegas's strong audio foundation it had established, but never heard of the strong video features it had. In fact, when they've done audio work with people using Vegas Audio, the audio engineer wasn't even aware of the strong video features, or may have mentioned "yeah vegas is one of the top audio editors, but I guess it has some pretty good video features too, but I haven't really dived into them, but in reality Vegas Audio is primarily an audio tool."

These are the shoes us Vegas audio users are wearing, they're a little heavier to wear than other shoes, and come with a lot of old baggage. So, is it any wonder we get a little upset, when this stigmata continues to be spread by Vegas video users, when it's not true, and we're the ones left wearing the burden? We are just trying to stop the bleeding from going any further, by informing you video guys of our situation and asking you be considerate of this situation. Is that too much to ask, to not call Vegas, "Vegas Video" any longer therefore, continuing to Pigeon hole the product and to help make our shoes a little lighter when we're trying to attrack new clients?

Red, I'm NOT a video guy. I do video but I live on audio. I really wish you'd quit pigeonholing me.
MOST of my personal work is derived as a composer and producer. I didn't do any of the video in "Last Samurai, Hidalgo, Tomb RaiderII, BlackHawk Down, Tombstone, Lost Landscapes," or other films. That's all audio work. The largest section of my Vegas books is dedicated to audio. I started with Vegas Pro, moving over from ProTools. ncidentally, I was one of the first 10 artists recorded with ProTools when Windham Hill was providing the seed money for the software/hardware that became ProTools.

Vegas is an axe. If there is a stigma associated with it, I'm sorry, I don't see it. I assure you, there is no stigmata associated with it. Although there are some that seem to think so.

I understand where you're coming from, I just happen to think it's a silly argument without merit, and you don't. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Spot,
I'm not pigeon holing you. I know you know the audio features associated with Vegas, and use it for audio work and are well aware of it's power on the audio side. I am addressing the Vegas commnunity as a whole, asking everyone be aware of what Vegas really is, and to try and stop referring to it a strictly a NLE video editor and calling it "VV" or "Vegas Video" etc. Vegas will benefit on both sides of the coin when the audio community embraces it for what it's capable of, and both audio and video users will benefit. Us audio users benefit from the video users in this forum, and I'ld like to see the video users benefit as well from the audio community.

Is it just me, or does anyone else here think that Vegas is the worse named PC program of all time?

A name shoud say something about an application or be metaphor (example Adobe Premiere or Encore or the Magic Bullet suite). All I think when I think of Vegas is a casino or Las Vegas. Horrid name and as mentioned, when you google you get a zillion Las Vegas references.

A name is very critical to selling a product, it's part of the entire marketing package. Look at Final Cut Pro, another great name for a NLE app, or Final Draft screenwriting program or even Windows itself.

I think the name Vegas has done great damage to a good software package. It's a name that can't be taken seriously and serves to reflect a "toy" or "low end" program -- which Vegas is not.

So, Sony, please change the name!!!



MB

The name Vegas is a done deal. It's impossible at this stage to change the name. While "Vegas" seems a silly name for most of us Vegas has finally made it's mark and hooray for that.

The name of the app. is not the topic of this thread.

The topic of this thread is simply Please stop calling Vegas "VV" or "Vegas Video".