Everyone always looks at the negative side of things....is the glass half empty or half full?

Does it matter? Neither a half empty nor half full glass constitutes a full drink. I don't need half a glass when it comes to tracking -- I need a full glass, or damn near close to it. Vegas may make a fine video editing application, I wouldn't know. But when compared to the competition it is a half-assed audio app.

If you look at it on the glass is half full viewpoint, it means that rewire could be in v6.0 of Vegas, and since you never know until the day it's released of when a new verseion will be available, v6.0 could be here next week and you could get a complimentary upgrade because you've just purchased v5.0 within the last month. You see? Things don't look so bad now do they? :-)

Optimism is one thing. Blowing sunshine up your ass is another. Vegas 6 won't be out in a week, and any assertion to the contrary is a ridiculous refusal to see reality, not optimism.

After months of hoping Sony would add midi functionality into Vegas 5 (especially when nearly everyone on the forums requested it when asked by Sony reps what new features we'd like to see in Vegas 5), it was released without. Some of us have hoped that Rewire would be added in an update as a way around this, but now that this is obviously not the case, it has become clear that Sony has no intention of catering to audio professionals, at least not with Vegas.

It is possible that ACID will be given better multitracking features in the next release, replacing Vegas entirely in the multitracking/editing respect. But the earliest we're likely to see that is late July (Summer NAMM), which is two months away, and there has been no indication from Sony that there will even be an ACID 5.

I take offense at being told by a company fanboy that I'm not being optimistic enough when a program completely and utterly fails to meet my expectations. The only positive thing I can say about this situation is that at least Sony had the decency to tell us that no, Rewire is not forthcoming -- now I won't waste any time waiting for 5.0b.

Excuse me, but this is f**king hilarious. I was one of the users that posted rewire as one of his requests in that thread for Vegas 5. The thing is, I don't buy a product in hope that it will meet my needs tomorrow, when I have work that needs to be done today. I use the right tools to fit my needs today and in the future if it expands into something else, to make my work more effeciently, then I'm happy. You're really preaching to the choir here. My statement was light-hearted humor. Sorry, you don't have a sense of humor. If you don't have a sense of humor, you better get out of the recording business, because you definately need one. For now, if I need rewire or midi, then I buy the app that already has rewire or midi abilities. The true forte of the Sony software suite, is that when they release a feature, it does it better than anyone else. Why? Because they take the time to develope it correctly. Sony has said, many times that they don't put features in just so they can show bullet point feature items. That's what the other apps do. The other apps have all the bells and whistle features, but the UI sucks. Why? Because, well thought out time wasn't put into the development of that feature. Why are you using Vegas in the first place if you need rewire and midi so badly? Probably because the UI is the best in comparison to the others. If I can keep an effecient UI like Vegas and have to wait a little longer for Rewire to be implemented, then so be it. I waited 3 versions for hardware controler support, while the other apps had it. I worked around it by sending smpte to my digital mixing board and routing individual outs directly to my external mixer for automated mixing. Thus, I had a work around to achieve what I wanted Why? Because the most important feature I use...EDITING...is the best in comparison to the other apps. Why can't the other apps edit as well as Vegas?.....maybe the time on developing those features weren't put into it, and where thrown in as bullet point items. For midi and rewire, I use the apps that have it, and I have my work arounds, by using a seperate midi application and Midi beat clock to sync my devices together.

Is it my fault rewire and midi isn't in Vegas? From the sounds of your crying you seem to think so. I've actually sent detailed feature requests to Sony engineering outlining midi and rewire features and suggestions for them to consider. Have you done the same?

"...and there has been no indication from Sony that there will even be an ACID 5."

Actually, before there was a "what would you like in Vegas5" thread, there was a "what would you like in Acid5" thread.

Mario

PS: If you do a search, you might find out WHY(at least in part) rewire was added to an existing version of Acid.

I'll ignore the flimsy defense and personal attacks and get right to the heart of the matter:

Why are you using Vegas in the first place if you need rewire and midi so badly?

Great question. It allows you to defend the decision of the developers without justification, and attack the common sense of those who criticize it. Couple of problems with it, though:

1. I did stop using Vegas quite a long time ago. I bought Vegas Audio 2.0 and loved it, but my needs grew and the program did not, and when Vegas 3 came out with no audio-only version and no major enhancements to audio features, it became clear that Sonic Foundry was steering development away from audio production. I switched to Cubase SX.

2. You fail to take into account the investment of those who purchase an earlier version of the application. If their needs grow and the application does not grow to suit those needs, they can of course choose another option -- but that usually means abandoning their current investment of time and money into the current app. Those of us who purchased Vegas 1.0 (before video editing was even on the horizon) or Vegas Audio 2.0 (which implied that the program was meant for audio/music production) are well aware of this. When I switched to Cubase SX, there was no crossgrade option. Instead of upgrading to Vegas 3, I spent more to move to a different platform entirely.

Audio production folks saw the app we invested in stagnate for three years, through three releases, when it came to the features we needed. Vegas's growth in areas of serious audio production has been miniscule for the past three major releases. Sony is not waiting to "get it right," or to have an implementation that beats everyone else's, no matter how good the UI is. They are not doing it at all. There is no sense in waiting for these features to be implemented in Vegas 6, or 7, or 8, because it is not going to happen. That is my point.

People here have been waiting too long for SF/Sony to pick up the ball when SF/Sony has no intention of doing so. All I'm saying is that it's time to stop waiting for Vegas to get better and just move on to something else. I still miss the Vegas UI, yes, but the UI is worthless if it doesn't control the features I need. If Sony would at least confirm that ACID 5 is on the way then maybe we might allow ourselves a little hope that something will come of that, but I have not seen any such confirmation in the ACID forum.

Actually, before there was a "what would you like in Vegas5" thread, there was a "what would you like in Acid5" thread.

I'm not trying to be a tool, but could you please point that out to me? The only thread I've seen in the ACID forum that remotely resembles this is the poll asking which users own both ACID and Vegas, and why. That's not really the same thing. I don't see any official mention of ACID 5...

TmR and others that asked about WHY Rewire?? ... Well, for me - it's just about simplicity. I would like Vegas to be more like a host app for me - like Cubase is. When I'm tracking in Cubase I can have Reason in sync, and I don't have to render here and import there, etc etc. It's just lazy. BUT - when I HAVE in Cubase, and don't have it in Vegas, I want it in Vegas. It's nit-picky, true. But I'm not the only one who would like to see it.

I've set up the MIDI-clock sync too and that's just not as easy. My two cents.

Acid thread started by Sony:

http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=212882&Replies=139&Page=7

Mario

Caiwyn...this is as official as it gets.

http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=1&MessageID=227301

Will there be a acid 5...yes. When is a good question but I'd rather wait than get a halfassed version which will send the acid forums spinning with arguements that would make red and tmrpro look tame.

I'm very confident that this next version will be worth it.

Ed.

Damn I took too long on that phone call before I posted and mario beats me to it!!! ;)

Ed.

Thanks, MyST. I must've been doing something wrong in my search.

Hee. But yes, you are correct -- taking time to get it right is better than getting a half-assed version. I just hope they do turn ACID into the comprehensive audio/midi multitrack editor that so many of us have been waiting for. If they manage to do it while keeping that stellar UI, I'll gladly abandon my investment in Cubase SX.

Dammit. See? You've gotten me all excited again. I really don't want to be let down again... Oh, well, I guess we'll see what happens.

When I'm tracking in Cubase I can have Reason in sync, and I don't have to render here and import there, etc etc. It's just lazy.

I don't think it's lazy at all. It's just efficient.

Maybe they will combine ACID and Vegas... or perhaps make ACID more multitrack-orientated, while Vegas "becomes" a Video-orientated product.

There are many questions left unanswered for the audio future, Rewire being just one of them.

Jason

Moving away from audio in Vegas? Wouldn't that be like shooting themselves in the foot? Haven't they been using the audio characteristics as part of the reason to buy Vegas? Isn't the competition starting to wake up and adding better audio software to their video software?
So now, this would be a good time to cut back on audio editing capabilities in Vegas?
Don't think so. Not sure, but, don't think so.
HOWEVER.
Having Acid the main music CREATION app (ie, multitrack, loops, midi), and Vegas capable of importing an Acid file and editing it to suit the video (no rendering. Importing an ACD-ZIP file directly), hmmm, that might be a way to go...no?

¢¢

My guess is that for Vegas to be a reasonable competitor in the DAW venue certainly requires tempo mapping at a minimum and of course MIDI tracking natively. I would think tempo mapping alone poses monumental hurdles considering how audio tempo relates to video tracks. How do you speed up and slow down audio tracks while video is unaffected?

I seems certain Sony is at a serious crossroad here.

They are committed to video for financial reasons obviously and I submit Vegas from here on will be video first and should be obvious to all. Hey it's been stated that audio for video is the goal. I can't fault that although I'm very disappointed.

So will Acid, which I have no affinity for in it's current form as I care nothing about audio loops and it's MIDI functionality is primitive at best, will take on all of Vegas' audio multi track functionality and much improved MIDI support to compete with the current DAW apps, to be a real player? Hmmm,

Rewire in Vegas is a band-aid, an insufficient band-aid at that. Actually useless considering MIDI Clock is 95 % of Rewire anyway.

Realistically if my prognostications are correct the audio end concerning major advancement in Vegas DAW-wise is very up in the air if not grim at best.

MJ

" I would think tempo mapping alone poses monumental hurdles considering how audio tempo relates to video tracks. How do you speed up and slow down audio tracks while video is unaffected?"

Easy, tempo only needs to apply to three things

MIDI
Grid
and the metronome ( and maybe even not the metronome but doesnt seem like a big leap)

Why does video need to speed up or slow down in any way?

Personally, I only need the tempo changes so that the grid makes sense in multi tempo projects and for locking up Midi keyboards

and maybe even not the metronome

It would certainly have to apply to the metronome first and foremost.

Why does video need to speed up or slow down in any way?

You have obviously never done a video project in Vegas. The cursor travels along the timeline for both audio and video. Do you expect the cursor (and the code) to split where the audio slows or speeds up while the video still continues in real-time?

MJ

ahh I see the point. I was just assuming the video would continue on on its merry way. I wouldnt consider tempo changes to affct the audio in any way either. I only expect the grid to change.

But if MIDI clock changes, then SMPTE must also change? is that the problem ? I still am not too sure why changing the grid would affect the vieo any

I keep remembering a recent post by a Sony tech (I think it was Peter) during the first day or so Vegas 5's release: He stated that Vegas was a NLE – *not* a DAW and clearly explained this. Given the tone and clarity of his comment, I personally am not in any way expecting Vegas to move in the direction of a full fledged DAW, ie; Cubase, Nuendo, PT, Sonar, etc. I've said before that if I wasn't so damned spoiled by and addicted to Vegas's editing power and UI, I would have moved on to another app a long time ago because it lacks some of the basic "music creation" features that many of you are complaining about. Oh well. . .

drbam

First, video and audio must sync in the performance and visually on the timeline. Keep in mind the cursor has to be in the correct place for ALL tracks at ALL times.

Now let's just suppose you have one video track with a talking head and an audio track with his voice. No problem so far.

Now let's add a music bed with tempo changes and as an audio guy you want the timeline to match the tempo map.

Sony must consider this scenario as this is ONE app. catering to both audio and video.

Now if the Ruler is set to Beats and Measures the video track must suddenly change to squeezed frames in the faster tempo areas and expand in the slower tempo areas etc. and also the dialog audio.

Now switch the Ruler to Time and the video and dialog audio track remains a constant spacing and the music bed is compressed or expanded to stay in relation to the above tracks.

Carry this on to deeper exponents and you can easily see the nightmare.

MJ

I still dont see it. Inserting a tempo change should have NO effect on the audio itself. I mean, this isnt cubase or some other midi sequencer with audio thrown in as an afterthought. If you change the tempo, only the grid changes. If the audio speeds up, that just means the band sped up. Shouldnt have anything to do with the video.

Now if you Timestreched your audio to match the grid, wouldnt it and the video just do the same thing as they are doing now?

I dont expect a tempo change to change anything, either audio or video, just acid, midi, the grid and maybe the metronome

And regarding video, though its not up for any grammys, our video, The Carnie and Trailer Trash show, is by far regarded as the greatest BMX video ever made, and it was made in vegas. I know very little about video. Thanks to Veas, I didnt have to

Flanneljammies was the board name of a gentleman contributor to the Vegas Audio support forum. This individual was chased off this forum by "rednroll" for having the gall to broach the topic of Traction audio application. "rednroll" in a post above suggested that I was Flanneljammies using the name Newf as a cover. As well it was suggested that I am using the name Veguser. The responsible people at Sony Media Software could confirm using computer ID numbers, e-mail addresses etc. that these are totally false assertions. Anyone who asserts any association between these three forum contributors is propagating a malicious falsehood and should put their Echo Audio soundcard on the line at very least. An apology would also be in order. I invoked the name of Flanneljammes simply to remind people here that real reasonable contributors are being attacked simply for posting ideas or suggesting brand names that ,strangely, "rednroll" cannot tolerate. A recent example was a post by tmrpro suggesting an unbalanced cable that turned into another "rednroll" fiasco. Again if "rednroll" wishes I will request that a Sony representative publicly refutes the typical "rednroll" attack post that I have cloaked myself with the board name of another individual or have any association, professional or personal, with any other individual on this board. Please apologise or if you persist "rednroll", wager both, your Echo soundcards(all of them) and any future utterance of the words Echo Audio on this board as well as again apologise to Newf, VegUser, Tmrpro, Flanneljammies and the Veges user base for this false assertion and your past maniacal, reactionary rants in general.

Sincerely, Newf