Will Vegas Forum Die Like Liquid's?

video777 wrote on 9/17/2008, 4:35 PM
For years I participated in the Liquid forums (when they were Pinnacle, when they were Avid, when they were Pinnacle again). What happened to that forum was that people started complaining about how Avid/Pinnacle were not listening to them and how they were making seriously flawed marketing decisions. Something like three people would say, "Liquid is the greatest NLE I've ever used. I never have any problems. It sounds like you have a system problem." That naturally would create tension. The offended and attacked party who was simply looking for help would sometimes respond with a harsh rebuttal. Sometimes they would just go away and never return. If you go there now you can quickly see who these people are because they are having a debate with themselves.

To make matters worse there were a couple of out-of-control moderators. One was dropped by Pinnacle and the other still is there merrily deleting threads from people he disagrees with. However, as long as you say things he agrees with then he will allow your posts to remain.

Do we really want to see Vegas die a slow death like Liquid is??? As was pointed out earlier in this thread, when we constantly knock the product we discourage other people and they will start wondering if going or staying with Vegas is a wise move.

How about if we have threads that are a little less emotional? For example, tell us what problems you are experiencing, what you have tried doing to resolve it, and whether or not you have seen it reported before. If it has been reported for two years and Sony has chosen to not fix this, then there is no point in complaining and stirring up controversy.

We can also start threads that give tips on how to do things with Vegas or maybe just share our latest creation. I started a thread on the Avid boards that ended up having a quarter million views and hundreds of replies (mostly with people helping other people). It was extremely popular and largely beneficial to many people. Those are my thoughts.

Comments

blink3times wrote on 9/17/2008, 5:55 PM
I wouldn't worry about it. There are always a bunch of big mouths in every forum. Heck.... I was considered one on the Liquid forums :)

Point of fact... Vegas is GROWING.... not getting smaller. If you go to any one of these universal forums like dvinfo.net and have a look at the total number of posts you will see that Vegas is leading at roughly 40,000. (About this time last year FCP was beating Vegas in posts on dvinfo.net)

On HV20.com Vegas tops the list (with PP close behind). On the AVS forum Vegas has become a very popular name in the last year.

Everywhere you look the Vegas numbers are up and more and more people are talking about it, and aware of it.

A lot of people blame Avid for Liquid's meltdown.... the popular claim was that it was mismanaged and to a certain extent that was true. But it was definitely getting old. In fact Andy Brown (on the Avid forum.... for those who don't know) brought up the point that he went back through the various versions of the past and quickly came to the conclusion that Liquid hadn't changed one little bit in something like 7 or 8 years (which is a life time in the software world).

Then there was Charlie Whites' review of Liquid 7 when it came out.... a disastrous one at that. He called it old and tired and went as far as predicting its death (which of course turned out to be true) I BTW agreed with that review.
http://dvformat.digitalmedianet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=36233

Vegas doesn't have that problem. The SCS boys are doing what they can to keep Vegas up to date and on par with the times.... and they're doing it well IMO. Is it perfect....no certainly not, but they're doing a heck of a lot better with the patches than Avid ever did with Liquid!!

Vegas is showing CLEAR signs of getting stronger and growing.... there were no signs of that at all with Liquid.... it was stagnant.... The last great thing you could say about Liquid was that it was the first NLE to be able to edit HD (long gop) natively..... and that's where the greatness stayed

Soooo.... as far as I can see... there are a very small handful of people shooting the mouths off relative to the masses that are satisfied..... and there are 10's and 10's of thousands of satisfied customers out there. I don't see a drop in the bucket tainting the entire water supply here at all.
farss wrote on 9/17/2008, 6:43 PM
So what people using HV20s think of Vegas is a good benchmark?
If that'e the case then Vegas is in very serious trouble.
Thanks AGAIN Blink for putting Vegas down.

Bob.
blink3times wrote on 9/17/2008, 7:05 PM
I'm not at all sure what you're getting at Bob.... could you explain a bit better please?
farss wrote on 9/17/2008, 7:13 PM
You keep treating Vegas like it's a tool only meant for soccer mums and kids. If you want to have a sensible conversion about Vegas and it's future start talking about broadcast or Hollywood. With your tack you're relegating Vegas to the same market as ULead etc.
I have sold one post house on Vegas, I know two people cutting TVCs for broadcast. It's people at that level in this business that matter. It's stupid how this business works but that's how it is. If you doubt that just think about how many copies of FCP Cold Mountain sold for Apple.

Bob.
GlennChan wrote on 9/17/2008, 7:23 PM
IMO... let the marketing people worry about marketing. There's A LOT of different types of marketing out there that works.
e.g. Rich Jerk (they sell a get rich quick scheme / useful information)... the website persona is somewhat of a jerk and it manages to sell.
Now if you Google RJ, there are other types of websites that work. One of them is the supposedly "independent" review site that reviews many different products. Another one of them is the "I'm warning you about this scam" / two-sided review site. The goal of all those sites is to sell you something (most of the time it's the RJ product)... none of them should be trusted.

But anyways, there's those 3 different ways of marketing the same product. There's a lot of different types of marketing out there that works... it doesn't necessarily have to be exactly what apple is doing.
Lyris wrote on 9/17/2008, 7:23 PM
I have to agree with the above, no disrespect intended, but if you look at the user forum for the likes of DVD Architect, it's clear that most of the people using it aren't professional users.
farss wrote on 9/17/2008, 7:25 PM
A more apt comparison would be between the Vegas Video and Audio fora. The audio forum used to be as active as the video.
Asked for features never happened, big screaming matches, people banned then silence.

I certainly do not want to see Vegas go the same way.
I've yet to see a single post from anyone here that I'd call destructive, impolite yes, written in anger or frustration yes. If people don't care they just leave. It's when they stop complaining that things are really too far gone.

Bob.
blink3times wrote on 9/17/2008, 7:38 PM
Bob,

Firstly, Anybody that knows vegas at all clearly understands that it is an extremely versatile piece of software that will suit soccer Moms with HV20's just as easily as it would say .... Mike Jones with an XDcam. That's part of Vegas's appeal. Now if you want to look at this as a weak point then be my guest.... but you would be one of the few.

Secondly, a program like Liquid HAS NOT succeeded because it COULD NOT be used by average soccer Moms.

Thirdly, There are a HECK of a lot more HV20's, HC3's, HF100's...etc out there than there are A1's, FX1's XDcams...etc and if Vegas had to survive on pro and semi pro alone...... then it probably wouldn't.

It's the Hv20's... HC3's...etc along with the B&H photo deals (Vegas pro without dvda for $150 or so) that are putting Vegas on the map so if I were you I wouldn't be looking a gift -horse in the mouth.

Fourthly, I don't think Sony gives a care what cam is hooked to their software... so long as it's their software that is being purchased.... and frankly.... neither do I.
Mustafa wrote on 9/17/2008, 8:04 PM
Perhaps we're looking at the issue from a model that honestly doesn't exist any longer. We've recently entered an era when huge numbers of people are now interested in producing "professional" level video. Most of those, at least intitially, are not making a living at it---yet they desire a quality finished product. The fact that Vegas offers very good software at a relatively inexpensive price is a good thing. Walking the line between "professional" and "consumer" is difficult, especially when the lines have become so blurred. We're living during a revolutionary period, and revolutions are messy.
blink3times wrote on 9/17/2008, 8:11 PM
"Perhaps we're looking at the issue from a model that honestly doesn't exist any longer. We've recently entered an era when huge numbers of people are now interested in producing "professional" level video."

And I think that's an extremely valid point you make.
jabloomf1230 wrote on 9/17/2008, 8:26 PM
I agree. That's probably one of the most sensible points made here in a long while.
farss wrote on 9/17/2008, 8:39 PM
"and if Vegas had to survive on pro and semi pro alone...... then it probably wouldn't. "

Neither would FCP or Adobe. 98% of the users use about 10% of the power. Those 98% though buy the product because of the other 2%.
We had a college level guy in here a few weeks back. He was a Vegas user because that's what the local schools are using. But guess what he's buying next. He's never had a problem with Vegas that he mentioned but you know how it goes. That's my point.

Bob.
blink3times wrote on 9/17/2008, 8:54 PM
" Those 98% though buy the product because of the other 2%."

I don't buy that at all Bob. That 98% have no idea what the 2% are using or even care.

Do you really believe that average soccer Mom says: "If that's what they're using in Hollywood... then so am I"???? Come on.

Average Soccer Mom says: " I want something that's easy, something that I don't have to take out a second mortgage on, and something that produces a quality result."

I do however agree that soccer Moms are out there buyng FCP and PP as well... (which further supports MUSTAFA's point) but I'm not sure it's happening at the level and speed that APPEARS to be happening with Vegas.... but that's just a guess that could well be dead wrong (I have no access to Vegas purchase statistics.... I'm just going on what I see on the various boards)
dibbkd wrote on 9/17/2008, 9:23 PM
I'll have to say that I now loved the Pinnacle forums.

If it weren't for their forums, I would have never heard of Sony Vegas. After getting a Vegas download trial, I threw away my Pinnacle CD's to make sure nobody else accidentally installed it...

I'd fall into the consumer level user who only uses Vegas for fun. I might have made a few bucks here or there with it, but 99% of what I use it for is to edit the kids lives.

I started with the Vegas Studio version, then quickly upgraded to pro to get a few advanced features.

I feel lucky to use such a great product and be in a forum with pros who are far more advanced than myself, and don't blink to answer when asked a question.
Spot|DSE wrote on 9/17/2008, 10:40 PM
Walking the line between "professional" and "consumer" is difficult, especially when the lines have become so blurred.

Scary that a 99.00 version of Vegas does virtually everything and more that NewsCutter did...
John_Cline wrote on 9/17/2008, 11:10 PM
I know for an absolute fact that Vegas was used as an integral part of the workflow on every taped/edited feature piece on every NASCAR Winston Cup broadcast on NBC for the last seven years. (The last several years were broadcast in 1080i HD.) Vegas was also used during the races to ingest material continuously in one instance of Vegas and another instance of Vegas, on the same machine, was was used to edit this material for immediate turnaround and broadcast to air. We're talking an on-air, live broadcast to an audience of tens of millions. Vegas didn't hiccup once in the entire seven years.

I also know for a fact that Vegas was used for this year's INDYCAR season on ABC/ESPN, which also included the Indy 500 broadcast. It was used in much the same way as the NASCAR broadcasts.

I also hear that Vegas was also used by some moms to produce local soccer game videos. :)
farss wrote on 9/17/2008, 11:54 PM
"Scary that a 99.00 version of Vegas does virtually everything and more that NewsCutter did... "

I tried to "sell" Vegas as a replacement for News Cutter and failed.
New Cutter only works with DVCPro 25 and in PAL that's a real problem as it's 4:1:1. The only box that'll do SDI to 4:1:1 is the SD Connect.
Now you'd think shooting DV and ingesting into Vegas would be a simple pitch but no. Some of the things that Vegas CAN do seemed to become a negative plus I wasn't too confident about getting an EDL back into their online suites.
Wasn't a total bust though, we did sell this client a lot of SD Connects!
Bob.
im.away wrote on 9/18/2008, 12:28 AM
I'm using Vegas to make video movies of our travels to bore my family with (remember slide nights?). Even though I can't see myself making any money from my efforts, I still want the finished product to look as professional as possible.

Vegas enables me to turn out a pretty good product...and I'm still learning new features and techniques all the time. To me, the forum is a very useful resource. I don't seem to have the issues that I have seen described here, so I tend not read the real whingy posts.

So this means that as long as I'm a bit of a dummy the forum will remain useful to me - so I guess that'll be a long while.

Russ.
Maverick wrote on 9/18/2008, 3:25 AM
Like dibbkd I, too, heard about Vegas on the Pinnacle forum.

I mainly edit for fun but have done a few edits for the local authorities. I think I started with Studio 6 or 7 and then made the mistake of upgrading to 10. Workflow was diabolical as was the numerous crashes causing complete system restarts.

Vegas is fun, intuitive and, for me, doesn't crash very often.

I started with V3, then 4, 5 and jumped to 8Pro. This forum has been a wonder and source of much help without which I could not have completed many projects to my satisfaction.

Fora like this, in my opinion, are used in the most part for two reasons:

1) By those who want help/advice on certain aspects of the software, etc.

2) By those who have serious issues with failure, crashes, bugs, etc.

Often, people not experiencing problems, issues, etc. will not post here so we get a rather skewed view of the Vegas world.

Just my two-pennies.
craftech wrote on 9/18/2008, 3:31 AM
Will Vegas Forum Die Like Liquid's?
==================
Allen,

You've been here since March. Most of us have been here for years. We love this forum and depend upon it to help one another. The archives are a treasure of information for all versions of Vegas. The forum and the archives are more useful than Sony support, and I don't mean that in a negative way.

Short answer - No !

John
Bob Denny wrote on 9/18/2008, 3:51 PM
Check out this article A Group is its Own Worst Enemy.

Some people love to bitch and moan, prove to the world that they are smarter than (_____) and denounce others. A faceless software company is the perfect target for them. Others get frustrated and turn a problem or limitation into a general rant. To them, the thing they are trying to do is obviously the most important thing in the world and damn it everyone else should share their frustration.

The level of this junk is rising to the point that people are starting threads about that! Bad news.

video777 wrote on 9/18/2008, 7:28 PM
You've been here since March. Most of us have been here for years.
The relevance??? I've been doing video editing for many years. I have been a beta tester for lots of versions of Studio and Liquid. The fact that someone's only been on a particular forum for a short time means very little. I do not judge people based on length of time. I DO judge them based on the content of their posts.

Blink3times, your initial post was refreshing. I am very surprised that anyone would take it to mean that you were knocking Vegas. I totally enjoyed it and agree with it and the posts by others with similar sentiments. Excellent job!!!
John_Cline wrote on 9/18/2008, 8:11 PM
Video777, I don't think the reference to the amount of time that you've been here was necessarily the point. The point was that you've only been here a relatively short time and haven't fully experienced what an amazingly tight-knit community this really is. Us "old timers" have seen a lot of forum discord happen, but we have worked through it and made this one of the most interesting and useful NLE forums on the Internet. Your original question was "will the forum die", the answer is no, absolutely not. This forum is where I come to hang out with my friends.
blink3times wrote on 9/18/2008, 8:50 PM
"The point was that you've only been here a relatively short time and haven't fully experienced what an amazingly tight-knit community this really is."

Although shrinking, the Liquid forum is very much the same. On there you will find STILL, one of the original designers of Liquid when it was known as fast studio many, MANY years ago (he actually chose the name "liquid"). Some of the the volunteer moderators there practically date back to the days of Stone henge..... In fact now that I think about it, there has been VERY LITTLE new blood on that forum and involved with that program.....it's all pretty much an older crowd..... yet another reason for its death.

You'll also find people so devoted to the program that they wish it was human so they could marry and sleep with it. Actually, off the top of my head I know at least one who pretty much DOES sleep with it in its existing software form. I never asked how he does it.... not interested. Every year they have Liquid training sessions set up by volunteers and meet up for a bit of Liquid and a bit of socializing. This is the first year in many that it has been canceled.

As some one who has been a member of both forums I can easily say that the club mentality is very much the same. I will say however that I find the people here to be quite a bit more logical and much less hysterical... and yes Terje... that even includes you :)