WOT - Reel to Reel Audio Capturing

Comments

PeterDuke wrote on 10/3/2014, 8:10 PM
"The tape deck is an Akai X-200D"

Ah, I still have a 100D, which is similar to the 200D. Fun and games with it come flooding back.

One disaster I had was a timer recording I tried to make while out for the evening. The timer was an adapted electric stove clock. With the deck vertical, the spools are held on the spindles by rubber caps. There is an auto cut-out feature, in case the tape breaks, but I didn't use it because when the power is suddenly switched on by the timer, the tape motion was inclined to jerk and activate it. Anyway, the rubber caps were becoming perished and the one on the take-up spool fell off and the spool with it. When I came home I was presented with a pile of tangled tape on the floor.
willqen wrote on 10/4/2014, 5:01 AM
Hello,
I've done literally hundreds of CD audio projects starting the transfer chain with many types of analog gear including reel to reel tape, ending with computers to burn to disc.
Generally Akai decks are very good analog audio sources although most "pro" decks tend to have 15 in p/sec tape speed.
Akai decks with 7-1/2 in p/sec tape speed also are very good and tend to provide excellent dynamic range and frequency response .
I must respectfully disagree with the other forum posts about using passive audio attenuation devices.
Theoretically yes, they should give good results, and if your budget is an issue, of course they can be used successfully as directed in previous posts.
The problems I have experienced are, I believe, two-fold;
1) the quality of the electronic components, especially the resistors and jacks,
and even the housing used to hold those components, makes a large difference
in audio quality. Realizing the difference between a good resistor and a
mediocre one is elusive, even within the same brand and/or production run.
2) the impedance load is a factor which can degrade audio quality as well and
is difficult to match with passive attenuation devices.
Because these issues occur unexpectedly, or I need my signal chain to be the best it can be, I run my audio from the analog source to a quality pre-amp, then into a very decent computer audio card.
I realize that you may, or may not be able to justify the purchase of a pre-amp/computer audio card combination such as what I use (a Focusrite ISA 428 w/ digital card option, then via coax SPDIF into an EMU 1212m computer audio card).
You can also instead rely on decent USB audio interfaces such as Chienworks mentioned above (a PreSonus Audio box, a Focusrite Scarlet 202, an M-Audio M-track, the list goes on, cost varies) for your computer that you can purchase nowadays for as little as $59 (Lexicon Alpha) and get excellent, consistent results.
Perhaps even the computer audio card you already have may be more than adequate.
These USB computer audio devices can contain very good preamps with which you can control your audio levels coming from the reel to reel deck without the problems you are having now with the portable devices (Zoom H1, H4) and with very little hassle or learning curve (no soldering, or complicated electronic formulas required. LOL).
They can accept everything from mic signals to high line level signals without any issues.
You mentioned that your father was very concerned with, and took the time to record quality audio on these reel to reel tapes. Although I don't believe 1/8 in jacks in and of themselves are any better or worse than any other jack type such as RCA, or 1/4 in.
In my opinion the quality of audio that these decks can produce deserve nothing less than the same for the digital transfer to burn that signal to disc.
Passive audio attenuation devices have never really given me that kind of quality signal. Perhaps it was simply my choice of device. Perhaps not.
Yes they may work, and they may not.
They will also probably let you down right when you need them the most.
It's for these reasons, and the versatility of being able to record other types of signals such as mics, vinyl off of a turntable, etc., that I use preamps, independent high quality ADC's, and professional audio cards/interfaces and not passive audio devices in my signal chain.
I also avoid portable audio devices unless the event or location absolutely requires it, even then I would rather drag my old ADAT, along with a mixer and mics on location rather than use one.
It's been my experience that I get much better results this way.

Good Luck and Happy recording whichever way you choose . . .
Will
mdindestin wrote on 10/4/2014, 7:32 AM
I appreciate everyone's response, these are treasured family heirlooms.

In addition to family events, he recorded famous artists. For instance, one of the reels is marked "Ray Charles".



farss wrote on 10/4/2014, 8:03 AM
[I]"1) the quality of the electronic components, especially the resistors and jacks,
and even the housing used to hold those components, makes a large difference
in audio quality. Realizing the difference between a good resistor and a
mediocre one is elusive, even within the same brand and/or production run. "[/I]

Resistors are passive components. The only unwanted characteristic they have is thermal noise and that's defined by physics. If you ever find a resistor with non linear characteristics then it isn't a resistor. Resistors can also have parasitic inductance and capacitance just like every other component including a conductor however at audio frequencies and voltages that's rarely a consideration.

[I]"2) the impedance load is a factor which can degrade audio quality as well and
is difficult to match with passive attenuation devices."[/I]

They're called "H" pads, somewhere on the net there's an online calculator if you want to roll your own inside a pair of XLR connectors. I've get a pair of 10dB pads and Lundahl isolation transformers that have saved my bacon a couple of times in theatres. In reality impedance matching just isn't an issue today, most inputs to audio devices are higher impedance that the source, heck most balanced inputs on all but the most expensive gear aren't really balanced. The only time impedance matching really matters is on transmission lines and for audio frequencies that means very long wires. I spent a few years working with music on unshielded audio lines miles long :(

The whole idea that a preamp with active components and lots of resistors is a better choice than a pad simply doesn't add up. The active components in any preamp will introduce noise and distortion. That's the whole point of proper gain staging. Unfortunately some times one is forced to use attenuators e.g. the feed from a desk is just too hot or the levels out of a consumer cassette deck are too hot for my M-Audio 410's line inputs. No gain control on the line inputs, only on the mic inputs.
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My tips for getting a good transfer from R2R tape:

1) Demagnetise the heads and guides.

2) Clean the heads, guides, capstan and pinch roller. Check for head wear, if the heads are worn you'll lose the high frequencies. If the tapes are old you may need to clean the heads after every tape.

3) Probably worth checking head alignment or at least knowing how to tweak the heads to get the best signal off the tape. In this case if the tapes are being played back on the machine that recorded them probably not an issue but there's always Murphy :(

4) Watch out for "sticky shed syndrome". If the tape seems to be slowing down or squealing STOP. Heaps of info on the web on how to deal with this problem. If you try to soldier on you will damage the tape. From my experience only an issue with Ampex tape.

5) Check Eq settings and check if possible to see if any form of dynamic noise reduction was used with the recording. Some domestic R2R recorders offered one or more variants of Dolby NR. Again if the tapes are being played back on the machine that recorded them probably not likely to be an issue.

6) When you're done don't rewind the tape. Audio tapes should be stored tail out to mitigate the impact of print through.

Obviously I would recommend using a better digital recorder than the Zoom H1. I own one and for what it was made to do and for the money it is great but if there is valuable recordings on the tapes I would invest in a decent sound card or better yet, external box.


Bob.
Chienworks wrote on 10/4/2014, 8:12 AM
"Audio tapes should be stored tail out to mitigate the impact of print through."

Well, maybe. If it's a dual-sided tape then you merely transfer the possibility to be pre-echo on the second side and post-echo on the first, instead of pre-echo on the first side and post-echo on the second. And if it's a single sided tape then you're merely exchanging pre-echo for post-echo. Sure, post-echo is less noticeable, but it still makes no difference with a two sided tape.

I think the bigger issue is layering the tape on the reel for safer long-term storage. Leave the tape in a slow-played state as the tape tends to lay more evenly on the reel forming a solid surface that resists mechanical damage. If you rewind the tape then the tape can slide back and forth leaving thin edges sticking out which can be crinkled or even creased to the point of splitting if the tape is handled roughly in storage.
Chienworks wrote on 10/4/2014, 9:33 AM
Unfortunately that's only a mono cable. Then again, i don't know if the mic input on the H1 is stereo or not.
rraud wrote on 10/4/2014, 10:39 AM
"Maybe on the 1/4" balanced ones on the H4N's
- FYI, the H4N's 1/4" inputs are unbalanced @ nominal -10dB (or there about) The XLRs are balanced but mic level only.
In any case, I would recommend a high quality sound card/interface/converter.
The shedding problem was usually a problem with tapes manufactured in the 70's.. . All my Ampex tapes (particularly the 456 series) needed to be baked to be playable. OTOH, my older brother's R-R tape from 1962 played w/o issue. A closed-loop PB deck is the most most stable.. if one can be found. I used to have a Technics (1200 or 1800 series as I recall) which had both quarter and half-track heads and PB speeds from 1-7/8 to 15 IPS. They were a popular deck for radio stations.
john_dennis wrote on 10/4/2014, 11:23 AM
See my edit to the link to a DIN cable. The first one that I found may not be shielded. Likely isn't.
ryclark wrote on 10/4/2014, 11:52 AM
Since, as mentioned above, the input impedance of the H1 is 2K all you need is a 2K resistor wired in series with the input to attenuate the signal by 6dB (in fact you are more likely to find 2K2 resistors which would do). Thus the inputs could accept about 1.4V before distorting, if Zoom's specs are correct that max input is 0dBm.

But a proper computer USB interface would be much better. Don't however use any on board soundcard because that will be even worse than the H1!
willqen wrote on 10/4/2014, 5:49 PM
Thanks for the info Farss. Obviously I'm not that well versed on elctronic components such as resistors, etc., That is why I tend to rely on what I know and what has worked for me. But thanks again for the lesson on passive components. Always good to learn something new.

Will
richard-amirault wrote on 10/4/2014, 6:26 PM
Unfortunately that's only a mono cable. Then again, i don't know if the mic input on the H1 is stereo or not.

Easy ... buy two and get one of these.



http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/252280-REG/Hosa_Technology_YMM_261_Stereo_Mini_Male_to.html
mdindestin wrote on 10/5/2014, 9:44 AM
The H1 is stereo, but I'm moving to the H4n anyway. Also considering sound card options.

For now, I bought one of the mono attenuation cables at the local Radio Shack just to experiment.
Butch Moore wrote on 10/5/2014, 11:25 AM
Mixer
farss wrote on 10/5/2014, 4:16 PM
If you want to simply buy the "best" audio attenuators that use the "best" resistors then so long as you have deep pockets there's these.

There's also Khozmo. A Google will find you more. I do have a bit of a chuckle when these people use the phrase "passive preamplifier" . Maybe I could fund my retirement selling "passive post-amplifier attenuators" :)

Bob.

willqen wrote on 10/5/2014, 6:02 PM
Wow!
That's incredible! $199 ???
At first I thought it was a joke!

Will
PeterDuke wrote on 10/5/2014, 6:15 PM
Be sure to put those "attenuators" (actually, stepped potentiometers) in transparent cases with coloured LEDs so that you can show them off!

Is is very comforting to know that they will be accurate at radio frequencies as well as audio.
willqen wrote on 10/5/2014, 6:25 PM
Hah. LOL.
+1

Will
John_Cline wrote on 10/5/2014, 6:30 PM
Technically, those are ladder-type stepped attenuators, potentiometers are traditionally continuously variable.
Geoff_Wood wrote on 10/5/2014, 10:14 PM
If you don't need a variable attenuator, a few of the 'best resistors' should cost no more than a few tens of cents.

geoff
Geoff_Wood wrote on 10/5/2014, 10:19 PM
I think you will find that that control is actually a stepped switch with discrete resistors (probably laser-trimmed to match), rather than a simple potentiometer. At least it should be....

But all the OP really needs is 4 resistors. No point in complicating things unnecessarily.


geoff