Yeah. Making it hard the the end user is the key. :) Ironicly, it makes it just as hard for the legal end user sometimes (Phoroshop CS)

I have posted many times about my opposition to copy protection. However, I understand the need to not make copying a trivial exercise. The activation idea is not too bad as such things go. Where it goes astray -- as Spot found out recently -- is where it tries to look at changes in hardware and make a decision based on that. A product should NEVER cease to work just because I upgrade or add hardware to an existing computer.

It really depends on who is being targeted with the activation schemes.

Guess who: Joe Average, that's who.

If they truly could prevent hackers from breaking whatever method they try and truly stop pirarcy or at least put a dent in then fine IF it would also lead to a reduction in the COST of the software.

You know neither is ever going to happen.

Because SURPRISE the cost of piracy is already factored in the cost of the software. So the only ones getting hurt are the paying customers. Software piracy, like insurance fraud and inventory shrinkage is just a COST OF DOING BUSINESS. That cost is already reflected in the price of the products or services you purchase.

Its the consumer that gets screwed.

The "pain" of activation is directly releated to how many computers your have and how much the software you have requires activation. For someone with a single computer and maybe one or tow applications requiring it no big deal. Now put yourself in the shoes of someone that maybe has dozens of computers and dozens of applicatons all required constant reactivation and multiple registratons schemes and gets to be a royal pain in the ass. Then the problem is compounded if many of the computers are off-line.

Sony has worked VERY hard to make activation as painless as possible. I was part of a group consulted when the decision was made to go with live activation at SOFO about 4 years ago, and it was very hard for that group and team to come to this conclusion. And to my understanding, it's worked pretty well.
Yeah, the cracked versions are out there, and I can name a site that has the 1.5 upgrade for Adobe Encore as well, and yet that product hasn't shipped. This is common. But expected. However, at most software companies, I can assure you the cost of piracy is NOT factored in. A well-known multi-billion dollar software company commissioned a cost analysis of factoring the cost of piracy, and it would more than triple their retail price. Their product is a more popular product than Vegas by triple digits, but they do not factor in the cost of piracy. They have a team of lawyers and IT people that go after pirates, and they recently nailed a group in Texas. You can purchase the Trendwatch and Peddie reports on this very subject if you're interested enough.
Piracy is here to stay, but like encryption on DVDs, it's necessary to protect your assets from the general public. Until as John pointed out, it intrudes on normal use of the application. Vegas doesn't intrude at all, IMO. In fact, none of the Sony products do. Once you're reg'd, you're done.

I remember YEARS ago on my Commodore 64 (yah, THAT MANY years ago) there were some applications that required you to find keywords within the written documentation to activate the product. Why don't companies still use that? I imagine the seasoned hacker could find the data files within the code? I completely support the right and need of the company to protect itself but the current methods are just plain silly. I doubt they deter anyone.

SPOT perhaps it would be helpful if you explain your unusual relationship with Sony which is a carry over from Sonic Foundy. Since you seem to have insider informaiton are you a PAID consulant or do you in some way benefit over and about what us other mere "regular" end users do?

I paid full price for all my Vegsa software, did you?

Of course the 'cost' of piracy sin't factored in, there's no 'cost' involved, piracy isn't the same as shinkage, you don't have to make more of the product to make up for the 'stolen' copies. If they were shoplifitng boxed sets of the product then yes, you'd be justified in factoring that in.
But what IS factored in is the cost of the copy protection schemes, these are rarely developed in-house and the costs can be substantial. Not only the licencing fees but also additional help desk staff to deal with the problems users have getting the thing working. So far the only ones I see benefitting from all this are those hawking the copy protection schemes.
And those schemes must be the greatest pieces of vapourware every, there's simply no way anyone can evaluate the return, the only thing you can evaluate is the cost, I'd love to know how much additional revenue any software house believes they've generated by using copy protection and what sort of audit those figures received.

We're really really lucky with Vegas's activation. Back in college I worked on SGI's with Maya. The activation code for that wasn't just a call to SGI Alias/Avefront (then anyway) support. You had to report your name, CPU ID, MB ID, & software version. Then, they sent you a couple PAGE code that had to be inputted by hand (after you input you could save it to a disk).

Luckly, you only needed a new code for a name change, CPU/MB upgrade. Not a RAM change, HD upgrade, etc. like MS & Adobe are doing now. Of course, for $15 for the SGI O2's & $15,000-$25,000 for maya (back then), they wanted to keep their product secure. Of course now it's on Windows, easy to find acracked version, and not such an elaberate protection scheme (after all, Windows users don't have to pay as much $$ for their equipment as SGI did, so they would complain more about the protection).

BB - you're hijacking the thread.

Who cares if SPot's compensated. He's an evangelist and a trainer. Most people in that role are paid. Jealous?

Of course, the estimated losses due to piracy are pie in the sky. They assume full product value for each copy and fail to understand that most of the pirate copies, even if eliminated completely, would NOT result in equivalent sales of the product. Those that need the product will buy it, those who pirate either can't afford the product or are just dabblers who would never make the purchase.

As to inconvenience, you be the judge. Yesterday I took delivery of my Vegas +DVD package. Took it home and proceeded to install. The damn registration wizard just would not accept the serial number provided in the manual. It being late and out of normal business hours I was forced to wait until today to call CS for help. But even if they do provide a working S/N, I can't use it until tonight, which means I can't activate until tomorrow
(no broadband at home and time frame outside "normal business hours.")

So maybe, just maybe, I'll have my Vegas 5 working by the third day after receipt. Sure, that makes me very happy, NOT!

For the record, I'm NOT paid as an evangelist or trainer. Sundance/VASST is in no way compensated for the veg sharing site or my tutorials, I'd imagine Chienworks, Ed Troxel, Tim Duncan, and other writers/folks that share are the same. I do it because I enjoy it, and most of the time it's worthwhile until the jealousy, name-calling, etc begin.
While it's fairly well known I moved to Madison at SOFO's request during the development of Vegas Video, beyond that I fail to see where my/our relationship with Sony/SOFO is anyone's interest or business. I've VERY proud of my contributions to many features found in Vegas as a result of being fortunate enough to work with the engineering team from time to time.
Back to topic;

Microsoft says they lost 122 million to pirates of XP and Win2K last year. Given that they own 96.2% of the operating systems out there (PC Mag/April 04') I wonder if they'll charge nearly 2500.00 per copy of XXX when it ships next year. That's what the 122 million loss would do to the price of XP based on reported userbase x retail +122 million. (granted, all the OS's out there aren't XP, but it serves as a benchmark) And it's estimated that Microsoft is underreporting those figures due to current lawsuits with various governments. It doesn't take a genious to figure out with those kinds of numbers, shrink can't be substantially figured into the pricing of any software.
Since piracy costs the software industry over 11 billion per year, I guess they need to make up that revenue somehow. (SIAA report/Nov 03') I'll certainly have a hard time paying 4k for my next copy of Photoshop. (Which represents a sizeable chunk of Adobe's 6B revenue)

I'd assert that much of the proclaimed lost $$ are nebulous, yet at the same time, Microsoft was able to articulate actual lost jobs and $$ in Washington, DC a couple years back, in a very clear and credible fashion. I seem to recall the number in just that area alone was over 12 million at the time, in addition to a few thousand jobs.
Piracy will always be with us, until it's made a crime of equal proportion to stealing physical goods. Even then, it will be with us, but at a lesser extent. I've got no beef with companies that have registration aimed at precluding theft, until it comes to the point of interfering with a product I've paid for, registered, and operated. I expect to re-reg that software when I install on a new machine. I expect that I'll have to do it much like I did the first time I installed it. I expect that I'll have to explain that I'm installing on a new machine and that the old machine is no longer containing a copy of the same software. I hope that company keeps records of my communication regarding that software install. And I hope that installing a NIC, Firewire drive, RAM, or USB card reader doesn't interrupt my use of that software like my experience last week with Adobe's Photoshop CS. THAT is taking it too far.
Software reg is a HUGE PITA for beta testers of all products, but we endure it, deal with it, and expect it. Perhaps the general public finds it more intrusive, I don't know. Dongles are worse, especially the HASP dongles that some companies still use. USB dongles like WAVES and AVID use aren't that bad, especially with front-loaded USB systems.
There will always be the hack versions of products too. The only thing that makes it harder for them is the MPEG codes are harder to crack, and they get no tech support. If they're using the product as a $$ generator, all I can say is that I hope they struggle with sleep, cuz otherwise, they're immoral bastards that cost the rest of us time and money, no better than virus peddlers.

"Most people in that role are paid"

... especially evangelists, lol !

Ok, I'm out now...

>>> I remember YEARS ago on my Commodore 64....<<<

OMG!!! He he - I still have 2 working Amgia's and some games that require you to input a word from the manual. Some of these were random each time you started the game. Also - I am pretty sure - the Disney Art Studio needed the same sort of thing. I hadn't thought of this in a while - but you have a point - this was/is a good idea. However these days almost every product has some sort of downloadable manual because almost all products have downloadable *or* boxed version available. Thusly it would not do too much good to ask what is the 4th word in the second paragraph on page 6 is when anyone could download the manual.

And I remember some manuals being printed on dark brown paper to stymie photocopying.

SPOT said : "...until the jealousy, name-calling, etc begin.
While it's fairly well known I moved to Madison at SOFO's request during the development of Vegas Video, beyond that I fail to see where my/our relationship with Sony/SOFO is anyone's interest or business."

There is no jealousy or name calling, simply curiousity and a chance to clear the air and explain your relationship since it is "special".

For example for years now its common knowledge for the talking heads on TV giving investment advise to be asked every time they show up on air if or not they :

a. own the investment they are recommending you buy, hold, sell.

b. if or not they or the firm they work for have some financial arragement with the company they are recommending which may or may not cause some to wonder if or not it colors their comments.

I simply asked you to be professional enough to do the same. I shouldn't have to ask. It isn't if you do or not, rather that you should make it clear since you frequently suggest things to or are asked for freedback from Sony. Don't make more of it then it is... simply a question to explain your "special" relationship.

"You shouldn't have to ask?" Does anyone here really CARE about my motive for promoting Vegas like I do? If so, get a LIFE!

Vegas Pro earned me my first Emmy and BET award. Vegas 2 got me another one. (of each) And a Grammy. Vegas 3 got me a Grammy nomination and 2 Emmy wins. Vegas 3 also won a few film festivals for me. Vegas 3 was also part of my work for Tomb Raider 2, Touched by an Angel, and Joe Dirt. Vegas 4 also was part of my audio work for many television shows and film stems/audio tracks. Vegas 5 will be the same. I imagine if there is a Vegas 6, the same will be said there, too.

"I shouldn't have to ask" since you offer professional advice, but would you please post a nationally or internationally distributed video, film, television spot, commercial, bumper, title sequence, stem, dialog cut, radio show, broadcast spot, corporate work, or other visual or audible product you've generated for sale or hire?

I'm simply asking you to be professional enough to do the same.
It isn't if you do or not, rather that you should make it clear since you frequently suggest things to or are asked for freedback from forum members. Don't make more of it than it is... simply a question to explain your "special" knowledge.
And how is it you were relating any of this to piracy?

Ego massaging isn't my thing. That's YOUR thing SPOT as you just shown us again. I asked you a simple question, as you have before you get offended over what is a routine question you should have been up front with on your own. It goes to YOUR creditability, not mine. When someone from Sony posts they have the little Sony Logo along side their name. Just like they did when it was Sonic Foundy. Those of around for awhile know you have cozzy relationship with Sony. Nothing wrong with that, but you should be up front about it because you're often the first to jump to their defense, like with the product activation, expect of course when it pissed you off, then you were ranting your ass off about it. You should explain what your relationship with Sony is, or they should if it involves some financial reward, free software discounted software, just a slap on black, whatever. It would clear the air.

As far as you trying to attack the messenger, I don't care if you draw Steve Spelberg's bath water or wash and wax Jay Leno's cars every weekend or how many bit parts you had in some B movie production or how many DVD's of rain dance music you recorded or your constant need to inject you have "published" into as many posts as you can, or you trying to hype your business in the forum, none of which is professional, neither is constantly reminded us you got a couple gold plated little symbols that they hand out by the truckload.

Its like a Hollywood plastic surgeon listing which "stars" are his patients in his waiting room hoping that will attact him more business. I would find that very tacy and cheap. If you need to stoop to that to draw business, go ahead, I don't have to.

Since you haven't denied you get Vegas free and other perks when asked twice, I think we got our answer. <wink>

As far as the advice I give, or the tutorials I wrote, I don't claim "special knowledge", I simply like to share what I've learned... no strings attached. No books to sell, no tours to attend, no hidden agenda.

Can you say the same?

I paid full price for all my Vegsa software, did you?

IT'S THE WAY YOU ASK YOUR QUESTIONS Billy Boy - you sound like a smart ass, jealous, whiny 2 year old - if you have a real question, ask it like a real man e.g., grown-up professional and then move on.

Although SPOT is more than capable of taking care of himself - I for one am really getting annoyed with your need to mess up an otherwise great forum with your petty, irrelevant, rude, insensitive comments.

Try sticking to the topic at hand instead of showing us how cocky you can be from the safety of your own home/office.

I doubt if Eric Clapton pays for his guitars. Does that make his opinion about guitars and playing of any less value? I don't think so. This is a non-issue. Piracy IS an issue in Vegas and any other software. (music, movies, etc)

Dave T2

Yeah BB, I get some software for free, and pay for others. Would you care to see the reciepts for the MANY copies of Vegas 1, 2,3, 4, and 5 I've paid for too? Or Forge 3,4,5,6,7, Acid 1,2,3,4, Noise Reduction 1/2, Or Super Duper Music Looper, Viscosity, ScreenBlast ACID, Screenblast Forge, Screenblast MovieStudio? Or howzabout the more than 100 loop libraries that I've not only authored and bought copies of, but those I didn't author and bought copies of? Or the several hundred books we've purchased from Sonic Foundry to give away at VASST tours of the past? The list goes on and on, so what if I get some free softwareon occasion? Beta programs work that way. We don't get free software for our 12 machines or our training machines. We also don't get free copies of the software we've given to the rez kids or other ed institutions around the country.
I've worked pretty damn hard to push Vegas in the market, FWIW, I started the first Vegas forum there was, and was part of getting this one established too back when Nancy was Director of Customer Service. I have a great relationship with the folks that are at Sony because they know I have a tremendous love and respect for what they do and how hard they do it. I've been there at 3 a.m. with the engineers on projects, learned a lot from them.
I also get free software from Adobe, Pinnacle, Ulead, Maya, Lightwave, and MANY other companies out there because of the reviews I've written and books I've created. I don't spend a lot of time talking about how great all those products are, I simply write about them. No hidden agenda here, I make a living making music and writing books/teaching people about my passions; music and video. I've been blessed enough to do somewhat well with both. I enjoy sharing my knowledge. If I make a few bucks teaching folks what I've learned, then damn me and anyone else for doing it. If it wasn't for teachers, you'd not be able to read this post. And I happen to like teaching and sharing knowledge. It's too bad you have an issue with me and what I do for a living, and who I'm fortunate enough to do it with. I suspect DMcKnight hit it on the head in his post. Either that, or your mother just simply didn't hug you enough. Must be rough being so angry all the time.
Maybe you're so angry you can't see that sometimes people do things simply because they love it and are passionate about it. Either way, I pity you.
Does that appease your <wink>?

bb is a pirate. he jak'd this thread. wasnt you the dude posted AM I POSTING TO MUCH!? yeah.
your picture scares me. looks like a precinct shot.
piracy sux but like betaware lets you try be4 you buy.
chill bb

Its obvious WHO the angy one is. <wink>