An AVCHD "disk" is an older configuration which doesn't seem to be supported any longer.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. In my experience this format is supported by most players currently on the market, certainly including Sony and Panasonic. Similarly it is supported by many NLEs but, conspicuously, not by SCS.

I have created BD5 disks with Nero Vision and VMS. The disks they create have the Blu-ray file and folder structure. I have never had an application that creates the AVCHD "disk" structure that is described in Wikipedia which has a completely different folder structure, all upper case file and folder names and 8.3 file names. Have you?

I think the 8.3 thing mainly applies to camcorder discs. The discs I have had success with do not comply in that repect. My experience of 'AVCHD discs' is mainly with those authored by Cyberlink PowerDirector and multiAVCHD. The former can have menus, the latter not (at least for best compatibility). These will play in my Panasonic player/recorder and also in Corel WinDVD. BD5s do not.

From Wikipedia:

AVCHD as distribution format

I am currently using an LG Blu-ray burner which also burns DVDs and BD5/9 disks. I started burning BD5 disks with a conventional DVD burner last year using Nero Vision and then VMS9P. If you are going to burn BD5/9 disks then you don't need a Blu-ray burner. I don't know anything about the PS3 other than what people tell me.

I guess all this confusion will be a moot point once the price of blu ray media drops down to DVD media level.

I wonder how the PS3 will read the BD5 you created using VMS9P. If we try to do the same thing as you had outlined in other post, the PS3 reads it as data disk(even though it support AVCHD disc since I created one with tsMuxeR). It is strange that your Sony blu ray player reads it as DVD-R AVCHD but the the PS3 won't. But it did read my AVCHD disc correctly as AVCHD DVD-ROM.

I don't have a Sony blu ray player besides the PS3 so I can't test to see if it will read the BD5 created by VMS10 and DVDA5 as AVCHD disc.

Did you have to demux your rendered .m2ts file before making the BD5 disc? I get out of sync audio but tsMuxer fixed it. It also easily create AVCHD disc without menu.

Wikipedia is actually adding to the confusion! For instance it says, "Nero Vision 9 can create an AVCHD disc......" I have made so-called AVCHD disks with Nero Vision 5 as part of Nero 8 and Nero Vision 10 as part of Nero 10. The folder/file structure and the file naming convention on those disks conform to the Blu-ray spec not the AVCHD file/folder spec listed earlier in that article! Despite what Nero says it is NOT making an AVCHD disk, it is making a BD5/9 disk using the AVCHD codec.

I currently use just DVDAS 5.0 for making all my disks unless I don't need a menu. Then I'll just burn from the VMS10 timeline. Since my Sony BDP-BX2 and my friend's LG BD270 play the BD5 disks just fine - we have NO intention of connecting them to the Internet for a firmware update!

Wikipedia is actually adding to the confusion! For instance it says, "Nero Vision 9 can create an AVCHD disc......

Indeed, and it also says; "* Sony DVD Architect 5 can author AVCHD-compliant discs with menus using AVC encoding as well as non-standard discs using MPEG-2 encoding. In both cases data rate is limited to 18 Mbit/s." - which conflicts with what SCS say!

I think your strategy makes perfect sense for you. Unfortunately my Panasonic machine will not accept BD5s, so I must create discs differently.

The definition of a 'true' AVCHD disc seems somewhat elusive, so I feel we must go for what works for us :-)

It has taken awhile to figure out all these "standards" and I am not happy with the limited compatibility we have supporting low-cost HD media.

My current understanding of Blu-ray players sporting the AVCHD logo means they support the older AVCHD folder/file structure which you can find on the Wikipedia page for AVCHD. A fully compatible Blu-ray player should support all three codecs in the Blu-ray standard which includes mpeg-2, mpeg4 (AVC(H.264) AVCHD and SMPTE VC-1 no matter if the logo is displayed or not. I intend to try burning a Blu-ray disk with the AVCHD codec as a test disk just to see how various players handle it. I'll bet even the cheapies, Sylvania and others not sporting the AVCHD logo will play it just fine. But it will take someone doing this to find out for sure.

To clarify, what I mean by "older" AVCHD folder/file structure is that it was originally intended as only a recording format. But as the AVC codec has been tweaked and improved it was pressed into service as an editing and a delivery format.

According to the AVCHD Wikipedia page Sony and Panasonic were the principles behind the format but, as I have just speculated, I think it is the older format and not the Blu-ray compatible BD9. I would suggest corresponding with Panasonic and encourage or even insist that they support the BD9 standard with future firmware updates. HD media costs are still too high for home video and we would hate for Panasonic to lose out on Blu-ray player sales because the consumers (they are always right!) have identified them as what we would call "non-compliant" with their own (BDA) industry standards. In addition, I have had one report from a Sony Blu-ray player owner who said a recent firmware update disabled his ability to play BD5/9 disks. I would suggest to anyone contemplating buying a Blu-ray player to adamantly insist it play BD5/9 disks before purchase. We have plenty of evidence that proper firmware programming is all that is needed. Let's be pro-active about this!

I agree about being pro-active, but I suspect getting Architect to create AVCHD discs is the way to go. I'm pretty sure that the whole industry is moving away from BD5/9.

Not so! Perhaps some camcorders have the AVCHD disk structure but for a delivery format the industry should support a unified disk structure - BD / Blu-ray Disk. And Architect already supports it.

Ken,

I noticed that on my AVCHD disk created by tsMuxer, the audio stream inside my .m2ts file is in .ac3 format and Windows Media Player can play both the audio and video.

If I take the same .m2ts file and tells DVDA5 to prepare a blue ray image for me it recompress the audio stream into LPCM format. So the resultant .m2ts files inside the STREAM folder has the LPCM audio. When I play that file back with Windows Media Player, I don't hear any sound but I do hear it with VLC player so the sound is there.

I found this out by mounting the image using Daemons Tool Lite and using tsMuxer to look at the .m2ts files. The difference is the audio stream.

I know you created some BD5 disc using DVDA5 and have that disc identified by your Sony blue ray player as DVD-R AVCHD. Could you tell me if the audio stream inside the .m2ts file is in AC3 or LPCM(if it is not too much trouble).

My LG blue ray burner should be here in a couple of days but I still like to play around with BD5 and AVCHD disc.

It's my understanding that AC3 is part of AVCHD spec., but not Blu-ray. So LPCM would be correct for BD5/9.

Mike

Then I think we cleared up the confusion on this thread.

KenJ62 and Melachrino created BD5 disc using DVDA5 and "most" Sony blue ray player recognized this as DVD-R AVCHD. If we put those disc in the PS3, it will show up as a data disk.

With multiAVCHD and tsMuxer, the disc created are truly AVCHD disc and shows up as AVCHD disc on player that supports it, including the PS3.

I may be barking up the wrong tree but I doubt it.

Examine the folder/file structure on your disks. The structure including "only" the movie file for brevity ........

AVCHD "disks" will have: (all upper case, 8.3 filespec)
/PRIVATE/AVCHD/BDMV//STREAM/XXXXXX.MTS

Blu-ray disks, including BD5/9 will have:
/BDMV/STREAM/00001.m2ts

AVCHD "disks" will always use the AVC/H.264 (AVCHD) codec.
Blu-ray and BD5/9 disks "can" use the AVCHD codec, (or mpeg-2 or VC-1 codec)

Notes:

Sony blue ray player recognized this as DVD-R AVCHD Yes, this is silly. It doesn't report MPEG-2 for disk encoded with that codec!

PS3 always sees BD5/9 disks as data disks according to reports. It appears not to conform to current Blu-ray, hardware, stand-alone players.

multiAVCHD may be capable of creating a true AVCHD "disk" as well as BD5/9 disks. Please examine the folder/file structure and describe it according to the above criteria. Or, ....... show me where I am wrong. <grin>

Late edit: aquaholik, it looks like I missed addressing your audio question. I just checked and my Sony BD5s have PCM audio. But I checked a recent Nero Vision 10 BD5 and it has AC-3 audio! The Blu-ray standard certainly supports all forms of Dolby audio including the AC-3 codec but apparently the Sony DVD Architect 5.0 Studio version doesn't give us that option. I'll bet the Pro version does though.

The AVCHD discs that are produced by PowerDirector do not comply with this structure. They have index.bdmv and MovieObject.bdmv files and the video is stored in .m2ts files. The same goes for discs made with multiAVCHD. Both types play perfectly in any equipment that I have tried, admittedly limited. BD5s do not play in the same equipment.

Reading all of these posts, I am now even more confused. I am still a novice to video editing/burning. I have several questions.

I have an LG blu-ray burner/writer (blu-ray disk or HD DVD-ROM read compatable)
I have Vegas Move Studio 9 Patinum and the accompanying DVD Arch Studio version 4.5

This is what I want to do: I want to render my AVCHD movies and burn them onto standard DVD for backup/archiving. In case my computer hard drive fails, I want to have a copy of the AVCHD formatted movies on a disc to import back into another new computer hard drive.
QUESTION 1) In doing this, will the quality suffer?

I have already succesfully down-converted the AVCHD movies to "standard" video and burned these on standard DVD.
Do I have to re-render these movies to keep the AVCHD format (NOT down-converting them) to burn on the DVD?
In Vegas Movie Studio, I know I choose: Make a Movie, then Burn it...,
QUESTION 2) then Type Of Disc - Blu-ray?
This is the only choice that gives you format options. So, I assume I must choose the video format "SONY AVC, correct?
Then which "template" do I choose? Previous, it was suggested the 15Mps bitrate...........but there are two of those: a 50i and a 60i
QUESTION 3) What is the difference between these?

TOG62, your reply is a bit ambiguous but I think I understand what you mean. BD5s do not play in the same equipment. You need to understand that you ARE making BD5/9 disks! AVCHD "disks" have a different folder structure, have all upper case file names and have 8.3 filenames (.MTS). The differences in what Blu-ray (including BD5/9) disks will play or not play DO have to do with the index.bdmv files and some guys have made patching utilities in an effort to make the disks more compatible.

IMO, we must resist calling these disks AVCHD disks EVEN THOUGH THE INDUSTRY PERSISTS IN VIOLATING THE RULES to the confusion of all. AVCHD "disks" always have the folder/file structure described in my previous post. My Sony Blu-ray player identifies my BD5 disks as AVCHD - but it is wrong! It is a Blu-ray disk - written with a red laser.

Lijan, it is a bit off topic here to discuss a backup strategy. And I am wary of someone who does not even know their video standard 50i/60i since our explanations my not be understood. I do want to help but suggest starting your own topic where all your particular issues can be fully explained. As you have read the issues surrounding AVCHD disks is confusing to hardware and software designers as well and it is taking awhile for the rest of us to sort it out.

-=Ken=-

Ken,

The "AVCHD" disk( I put that in quote since I am not even sure anymore even though my PS3 identifies it as an AVCHD DVD-ROM) created by tsMuxeR has at the root folder BDMV and CERTIFICATE.

At the BDMV, I have exactly 8 folders, exactly the same as a blue ray disc I just prepared using DVDA5. They are:

AUXDATA
BACKUP
BDJO
CLIPINF
JAR
META
PLAYLIST
STREAM

The only difference is inside the BACKUP folder.

The "AVCHD" disk has inside the BACKUP folder:
BDJO
CLIPINF
PLAYLIST

The blue ray disc created by DVDA5 has this inside the BACKUP folder:
BDJO
CLIPINF
JAR
PLAYLIST

For both kind of discs, inside the \BDMV\STREAM folder, there are .m2ts files. I do not have any .MTS files inside the \BDMV\STREAM folder for my "AVCHD" disk. They are .m2ts files just like the one inside my blue ray disck \BDMV\STREAM folder

Ken,

I really feel that this debate has reached an impasse. The programs that state that they are making AVCHD create discs I can play. DVDA says it's producing Blu-ray on DVD discs and I cannot play them. I don't think examining the file structure, which I actually think applies only to camcorder discs, alters the practicalities of the situation.

Regards
Mike

Hey guys, the battle is worth persisting! It is not an impasse - perhaps temporary stalemate.

aquaholik, the disk structure you are describing is definitely Blu-ray and not AVCHD - it is merely encoded with the AVCHD codec. The reason some Blu-ray players do not play them is likely more political and financial than technical. There may be no incentive for the player manufacturers to allow playback of high definition disks written with the red laser. And the ability to burn and play back high definition video on conventional DVD media (the BD9 standard) was just a temporary accommodation to those in the industry that wanted to "press" loss-cost titles on low-cost media. What most likely concerns them more is the likelihood that people will pirate their precious Hollywood content using cheap media.

If this discussion seems tedious then I suppose it could be pursued in greater depth on the multiAVCHD forum. The author really knows his stuff. My efforts here are to stir up enough interest that people might email their Blu-ray player manufacturers and pester them into actively supporting the BD5/9 standard. We need to be able make these disks and give them to our friends and family with a reasonable expectation they will play properly. We are likely now in a transition period. Sony may be quietly updating their Blu-ray player firmware to disable BD9 functionality so my player may end up an orphan. I hope this is not so.

-=Ken=-

That is just fantastic. tsMuxeR thinks it is creating AVCHD disc and the PS3 reads it as an AVCHD DVD-ROM but multiAVCHD creates another entirely diffferent folder structure that is supposedly the correct format for AVCHD.

You created a BD5/9 using DVDA5 and your Sony blue ray player identifies it as AVCHD-DVD-R. If the industry is themselves confused then we should be too.

This is all fun an experimentation anyway and I learned a lot the last 7 days. I found out more peculiar stuff but now I am able to render, author, and in a few days, burn blue ray disc with menu using the VMS10 package. I also learned to use tsMuxer to fix Windows Media Player playback issue with 1920x1080 VMS10 rendered .m2ts files.

Some may find this oldish thread in DVDInfo.net of interest:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/avchd-format-discussion/141142-avchd-menus-dvd.html

In particular, Tom Roper describes a hack to DVDA produced media to make them more compatible.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/what-happens-vegas/139676-authoring-blu-ray-menus-legacy-dvd-yes-you-can.html

Also there is discussion that later firmware makes PS3 not able to recognize discs as AVCHD which it used to.

Excellent resource, Peter! More stuff to read - when I get the time. <grin>