In the UK it's possible to buy ten 25GB BD-Rs for £10.00.

"Of course, at full HD capability, the standard discs will hold 20 to 30 minutes of video."

I meant to comment before. With Sony PMB (Picture Motion Browser) you can make an AVCHD disc with primative menu (either one scene per clip or one scene per shooting day). It appears to do its job without re-encoding the .m2ts files. With 1920x1080/50i at 18 Mb/s files, you can fit about 40 minutes on a standard DVD. PMB is free but you must have a qualifying Sony product in order to install it.

Researching on DVInfo and Doom9 forums I found some useful info and have copied snippets of them here:

Ironically, the hack causes the BD-5/BD-9 to identify itself as AVCHD so that when presented it plays. It's enough confusion that some people don't know what to call it. True BD-5/BD-9 is on BD-ROM and doesn't exist.

To summarize, Blu-ray disks are supposed to use the blue laser. AVCHD disks were originally designed for video acquisition in HD camcorders using a red laser and had the /PRIVATE/AVCHD/BDMV/XXXXX.MTS folder/file structure. When a Blu-ray (BD) stand-alone-player (SAP) advertises the AVCHD logo it means it supports taking a finalized DVD/MiniDVD out of a camcorder and playing it properly.

In order to get a BD SAP to play a BD-9 (BDA spec submitted by Warner) you have to fool it into thinking it is really an AVCHD disk! Then it will turn on the red laser for reading. That's why my Sony BDP-BX2 reports the BD5 disk as DVD-R AVCHD. The BD9 spec is actually BD-ROM only. It was never intended for burning.

Even worse, it turns out that burnable media BD-R/RE are NOT part of the Blu-ray spec and cannot sport the official Blu-ray logo!!!! These guys simply had no intention of making this format available to the home user or small business, low volume producer! I have some choice words for those jerks but decorum prevents me from fully expressing myself.

Further thoughts:
<diatribe>
It has been only the most recent three or four years that DVD burners and media became reasonably reliable. Before that I had suggested we consumers draft a giant class-action lawsuit against the DVD industry for foisting defective technology on a trusting public. I still use T-Y media for most of my work but think of the untold stories of people buying M-------- media off the shelf at the drugstore and wondering what they did wrong because people have trouble viewing their disks. I still maintain that we should be able to buy any DVD media, burn it in any burner and have it play reliably in any commercial DVD player, otherwise the technology is inherently defective and unsuitable. Same goes for Blu-ray. Don't turn this stuff loose until it is completely reliable with no issues. We shouldn't have to put up with these "tricks" and futzing around, trying to get stuff to work.
</diatribe>

"AVCHD disks were originally designed for video acquisition in HD camcorders using a red laser and had the /PRIVATE/AVCHD/BDMV/XXXXX.MTS folder/file structure."

The file structure certainly can vary. I have several apps that make AVCHD discs including Sony PMB, and they all start at BDMV at root level. My AVCHD HDD camera starts at AVCHD. I understand that flash card cameras start at PRIVATE, but I don't have access to one and haven't verified it.

Even with a file structure starting at BDMV there is considerable variation as to what other folders and files are present.

If the primary folder is BDMV then it is a BD5/9 disk. Blu-ray players can be fooled into playing it using the red laser by setting internal flags that identify the disk as AVCHD since real AVCHD disks used the red laser.

Yes the folder structure can vary somewhat. The BD5 disks I've made with Nero Vision omit the CERTIFICATE folder and seem to play just fine. Nero Vision also omits the sub-folders AUXDATA, BDJO, JAR and META. File names on real AVCHD disks are all uppercase and follow the 8.3 convention.

"If the primary folder is BDMV then it is a BD5/9 disk"

All the apps I have that make HD discs on red laser DVDs call them AVCHD (including Sony PMB) . When I put such a disc into my Panasonic BD recorder to play, it identifies it as AVCHD, not Blu-ray. If both Sony and Panasonic, the creators of AVCHD, call them AVCHD who are we to disagree?

who are we to disagree?

Peter, I have participated in three different discussion topics on this issue in the last three months in an effort to bring understanding from (my) confusion. It does not help that the mfrs are not consistent and add to the confusion. "Standards" are great if everyone would just follow them.

If Sony and Panasonic, creators of the AVCHD codec and the AVCHD acquisition format and AVCHD disk standard want to continue calling any red laser disk an AVCHD disk, no matter the disk structure, then there is bound to be confusion. There is a newer "standard" called BD9 which modifies the AVCHD folder/file structure to conform to the Blu-ray structure. I think the migration to the newer "standard" is (would be) rather clever.

Since there are really two different "standards" how are we to distinguish between them since they are obviously handled (or mishandled) differently? Perhaps AVCHD A and B or AVCHD version 1 and version 2.

It is becoming obvious to me that all of these "standards" are evolving as the technology improves. The AVCHD codec originally was not intended for delivery media but has been steadily improved so that it became quite acceptable for that. So, the industry needs to get behind the newer standard BD9 and make sure there is full start-to-end compatibility. It is ideal for home video and would be a great selling point for editing and playing home video.

Re: Lijan

I have already succesfully down-converted the AVCHD movies to "standard" video and burned these on standard DVD.

Sorry your question got lost in all of this. To preserve the high quality AVCHD, just render to Sony AVC types and AVCHD templates to get .m2ts files. Now use tsMuxer to create AVCHD disc on regular DVD media and you should have the original high quality file saved to use later, even if you can't play back the AVCHD disc for now.

"If Sony and Panasonic, creators of the AVCHD codec "

Just a little clarification here. AVCHD is not a codec, it is a disc/disk format, similar to Blu-ray disc format. The video codec used is H.264/MPEG-4 Part 10 or AVC (Advanced Video Coding), jointly developed by the ITU-T Video Coding Experts Group (VCEG) together with the ISO/IEC Moving Picture Experts Group (MPEG). (Quoted from Wikipedia).

Yes, Peter. That would be more correct.

I initiated correspondence this morning with Sony Support about BD5/9 disks. Only the meat of the messages is shown here.
----------------------------------------
My BDP-BX2 can play BD9 and BD5 disks, a variant of the Blu-ray spec using the red laser. Seems software must "trick" the player into thinking the DVD is a real AVCHD disk in order to play it. Not all Blu-ray players will play BD5/9 disks and some say Sony firmware updates disable this capability. In view of the fact that BD5/9 disks are a great, low-cost way to distribute HD home video, when is Sony going to actively support and promote BD9?
---------------------------
I'm sorry to inform you that the Sony BDP-BX2 Blu-ray Player does not support the playback of the BD9 and BD5 disks. Sony only releases full product and support information at the same time it is officially released to the marketplace by our Marketing Department. However, some limited advanced information is often published in various magazine articles. You may also want to read Sony's News Releases at: http://news.sel.sony.com
------------------------------------
It is apparent from your reply that, although I find my BDP-BX2 will currently play BD5/9 disks, that they are not officially supported and, I suppose playback could be disabled in a future firmware update. This customer has great incentive to make use of BD5/9 disks because red laser DVD media costs are one-tenth of the cost of BD media. BD5/9 disks are ideal for home video because no one wants to sit through more than 30 minutes of home movies! Please tell me what process to follow to appeal my case up "the food chain" at Sony. Thanks,
--------------------------------------------
I understand your concern. Please note that the firmware updates are released to add the new features to the Blu-ray Player and not to disable any feature. Also, you may contact our Customer Relations Team to appeal your case, or for any assistance in this regard. Based on the information you've provided, I suggest that you contact our Customer Relations Team and check for the available options. I've provided a direct link to reach them:

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/contact-relation.pl
-----------------------------------------------


I haven't followed up yet but Sony support responded to me twice in one day! That is very good. More to follow.......

-=Ken=-

Another quote courtesy of Wikipedia:

"AVCHD and AVCREC also use inexpensive media like DVDs, but unlike BD9 and BD5 these formats have limited interactivity, codec types, and data rates."

One could say then that an AVCHD disc is a type of BD9/BD5 with specific limited interactivity, codec types, and data rates. Only H.264 video coder may be used (no HD MPEG2), only AC3 or linear PCM audio (not the other audio codecs allowed in BD) and data rates up to 18 or 24 Mbps (not 40 Mbps in blue laser BD discs).

Edit

I am talking about features here. I don't mean that a BD9/5 with appropriate features will give you a compatible AVCHD disc. You still may need the Tom Roper hacks.

You still may need the Tom Roper hacks.

I'm still looking at hacks but haven't heard of him.

Isn't it strange that so many apps will produce a BD5/9 disk including Sony Vegas but even Sony hardware support disclaims support for the format?

Re Tom Roper hack, see my post above where I gave this link

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/what-happens-vegas/139676-authoring-blu-ray-menus-legacy-dvd-yes-you-can.html

Thanks for the link Peter. Let me test it with some 1080p slideshow. I think I can test it out without burning a single disc.

OK, I didn't make a mental note of the author. There are several guides around for making a similar patch to the image to make the BD5/9 acceptable to most BD players. They all trick the BD player into believing there is a real AVCHD disk in the drive in order to turn on the red laser. I think we need real BD5/9 support.

Well Tom Roper actually refers to a post by "alluringreality" who in turn uses a utility called AVCHD_Patcher written by someone else. Perhaps someone will now refer to it as the Peter Duke patch! :)

There are some other utilities here, but I think they are generally transcoders for shrinking the main Blu-ray movie to fit on a DVD.

http://www.videohelp.com/tools/sections/blu-ray-to-blu-ray-avchd

I read in "The Authoritative Blu-ray Disc (BD) FAQ" at

http://www.hughsnews.ca/faqs/authoritative-blu-ray-disc-bd-faq

that real BD9 discs have a tighter unbalance spec because they are intended to be spun faster. Can we buy DVD-R or DVD+R with this tighter spec?

Yes, interesting. I have read that the BD9 spec involved spinning the disk 3 times faster than a DVD which would give it a data rate up to 33 Mb/s, three times the data rate of DVDs and about 2/3 the data rate of a BD disk. And that is an important consideration when I petition the BD player mfrs to support BD9. It is a safe assumption that the current players only spin AVCHD disks at the standard DVD rate. Recording at anything higher than 18 Mb/s data rate will cause the BD player video to stutter. A safe 15 Mb/s seems plenty to me and the HD playback is entirely acceptable. So, my desire is not for them to support spinning the disk any faster but to fully support the AVCHD "standard" with the BD structure. They could do this by merely declaring/publishing the "standard" and ensuring all players and their firmware properly identify a BD9 which is a simple software/firmware option. A modest request, don't you think? That would make a lot of people happy.

I think what we want is for Vegas and DVDA to support AVCHD as a standard preset, the same as Cyberlink Power Director, Corel DVD Movie Factory, MultiAVCHD, etc. I don't think BD9 offers anything useful that AVCHD hasn't got. N'est-ce pas? The highest level folder should be BDMV.

Peter, I don't understand German <grin>.

I suppose it wouldn't matter which way the "standard" was settled upon. Your preference would require all the NLE apps to create genuine AVCHD disks. Do you know of any that do create the published AVCHD folder/file structure on a disk? I am not aware of any.

I prefer just the opposite since most Blu-ray players either play or are easily capable of playing BD9 disks with a firmware tweak. And, many NLEs are already able to make the BD9 disks.

And (since you brought it up) if the BD player manufacturers, due to popular demand, got behind the BD9-R/RE "standard" then what would be the likelihood they would introduce machines that spin the disks faster?? 33 Mb/s bitrate from a red laser on conventional media - wow!

I thought I was speaking Greek! :)

My Panasonic BD player (actually recorder) plays AVCHD discs from the software I have mentioned. I presume it would play DVDs and flash cards from AVCHD camcorders (it says it would) but I haven't tried it. I ask no more and no less than that Vegas and DVDA be similar to the other software I mentioned, and Sony PMB for good measure .

I suppose it wouldn't matter which way the "standard" was settled upon. Your preference would require all the NLE apps to create genuine AVCHD disks. Do you know of any that do create the published AVCHD folder/file structure on a disk? I am not aware of any.

The NLEs that Peter mentioned claim to make AVCHD discs and, in my experience, they work. That's good enough for me.

I prefer just the opposite since most Blu-ray players either play or are easily capable of playing BD9 disks with a firmware tweak.

How do you know that?

And, many NLEs are already able to make the BD9 disks.

The only one I know of is Vegas.

I agree with Peter; it would be so much more realistic to get one company to change its software than expecting the whole hardware industry to change its spec.

Well, you guys give me pause - and that's a good thing. I enjoy the challenge. There has to be a reasonable solution. Only 70 entries in this topic so far. You should see all the discussion in Doom9 forum on this stuff - and a number of specialized utilities. I maintain there is a crying need for a "standard" solution.

I did a little search for Sony PMB and I find it to be a typical freebie included with digital still and video cameras. My Canons had one - not serious enough for my needs. But it does make the point that if Sony (hardware) can provide software to burn real AVCHD disks then why can't SCS?

How do you know that? Reading the various forums I discovered what the "secret" was. If you program the disk to tell the BD player it is playing an AVCHD disk it will look to the red laser pickup for reading even though the disk structure does not conform to the accepted AVCHD format.

The only one I know is Vegas When I say the software products are able to make BD9s I am speaking of high definition video burned on to conventional DVDs which have the Blu-ray folder/file structure. Nero has been able to make BD9 disks for several years, going back to Nero Vision 5. I have read on several forums that Cyberlink products make BD9 disks. Also, Ulead/Corel do so. Mind you , in most cases these mfrs call these disks AVCHD disks which makes things very confusing.