Basic Blu-ray Questions

NickHope wrote on 3/23/2009, 12:16 PM
Just starting out on the Blu-ray authoring road...

So I've got my brand new LG BE06LU10 Blu-ray writer, I've got a bunch of 55-62 minute 1080-60i HDV files (.m2t), a load of Verbatim printable BD-R, and some customers lined up.

I've got DVDA 5 but I'm thinking of getting TMPGenc Authoring Works 4 just to get the job done as straightforwardly as possible. TMPGenc DVD Author has served me well over years. Also got the Cyberlink software that came with the burner. I know I can burn Blu-ray straight from Vegas but I want a scene menu.

Can I use my HDV files direct on a Blu-ray? Or do I need to remux as something other than an MPEG-2 transport stream? Or do I need to re-encode in H.264/AVC/MPEG-4?

Also I seem to recall people complaining of DVDA re-encoding files even if they're in theory already compliant with Blu-ray. Is this still the case?

For burning I quite fancy using ImgBurn as it's served me well for DVDs so far.

What software are you guys using to author and burn Blu-rays?

Any Blu-ray tips or gotchas before I start authoring and burning?

Comments

john_dennis wrote on 3/23/2009, 5:23 PM
I'm pretty sure you can't use the HDV directly on Blu-ray, but Vegas has Blu-ray templates that will produce compliant video and audio elementary streams that will open in DVD Architect and create a Blu-ray with no transcoding.

Here are some comments on the subject. These are just three that I have contributed my 2 cents, there are many others.

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=634421

Subject: RE: OT: Dual Layer DVDs, Whose Using?
Reply by: john_dennis
Date: 1/13/2009 5:00:12 PM

John, I have been using Verbatim dual layer disks for Blu-ray. They burn at 6x on a Plextor PX716A DVD writer. No matter what I start with in Vegas, I render using one of the Blu-ray templates which I change to match the properties of the media.
I altered the Blu-ray 1920x1080-24p template to 1280x720-59.94. Since the video was captured off air, I set the maximum bit rate to 20mbps. Most of the material is around 15mbps so I render variable at 15 mbps with a low minimum. The m2v and ac3 output goes to DVD Architect where I write an image. I have done projects with menus and no-menus. I use IMGBurn to write the image to DVD or Blu-ray. IMGburn seems completely easy to use. Under the "Write" option I hard set "BD" instead of Auto. I'm not sure it makes any difference but it always works. Using IMGBurn to write the disk frees me to work on something else in DVD Architect since even a 6X burn can take a while.


http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=633779

Subject: RE: Haupaugge HD PVR
Reply by: john_dennis
Date: 1/10/2009 1:15:35 PM

I am using a Haupauge tuner card with Beyond TV to capture ATSC broadcasts. I use VideoReDo to select the audio and video stream that I want and demultiplex from the Beyond TV .tp transport stream file into a .mpg MPEG2 program stream with no changes to the bit rate or anything else. Vegas Pro 8.0c will open the program stream files (after a fair amount of gyrating disk activity). After any edits the output can be written to DVD or Blu-ray compliant DVD Architect files. Since the original file type is MPEG2, I haven't gotten excited about trancoding to H.264. I understand that the H.264 codec is more efficient but I don't see how the video is going to get any better after yet another transcode and besides DVD media is relatively cheap. Why don't you just write the files in MPEG2 in Blu-ray format on DVD5 or DVD9?

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=628746
NickHope wrote on 3/23/2009, 6:16 PM
Thanks John.

The Wikipedia Blu-ray page has mentions of MPEG2 support but then for 1440 x 1080 (my format) it states the codec as "MPEG-4 AVC / SMPTE VC-1 only". Can anyone confirm that m2t/HDV or a remuxed MPEG2 program stream file is not an option for Blu-ray?

Now then, are you saying that I could compress my 12(ish) Gb HDV files just a bit to H.264 and burn them in Blu-ray format on a dual-layer DVD9? Is that a realistic option? How about compatibility? Would they play on my customers' various Blu-ray players, PS3 etc.? I heard of people burning HD-DVD to regular DVDs but I didn't realise it's an option for Blu-ray.
Serena wrote on 3/23/2009, 6:26 PM
Blu-ray is AVCHD format so you must render your HDV to that for a BD. I should add here a disclaimer acknowledging my present lack of expertise here, having only recently acquired a Blu-Ray burner! Nevertheless, I took one of my docos (in NEO HD 1440 x 1080 50i) and rendered it for Blu-Ray 1920 x 1080 50i as per Vegas templates, opened that in DVDA5, created the menus for shorts as well as the feature, and burned the BD. Painless and good result (shorts were shot and edited in 1920 x 1080P).

edit: you can burn Blu-ray to DVD disks (keeping to max 15 Mbs). Obviously don't get as much duration on the disk.
blink3times wrote on 3/23/2009, 8:09 PM
1440x1080 mpeg2 at 25Mb/s works fine on Blu Ray. (Actually the blu ray template is mpeg2 VBR at 20/25/30 which works fine)

Use one of the 1440x1080 Blu Ray templates and render as M2V then render a separate audio file (AC3 works best but make sure you use the pro encoder). Bring this into dvda and it will not recompress.

There is no sense rendering HDV over to 1920x1080... it only adds to render time and you don't get any added value. Also try to avoid rendering to avc.... you will lose quality.
john_dennis wrote on 3/23/2009, 9:18 PM
"Blu-ray format on a dual-layer DVD9? Is that a realistic option?"

This option is realistic for 15mbps and for your own use. I have taken my Blu-ray on DVD-9 disks to Best Buy and tried them on various Blu-ray players with mixed results. If I gave one to a customer, I wouldn't be too confident that it would work on the random hardware that's out there. My Sony S550 plays everything that I've ever made. If it is long or a high bit rate, I just burn it to Blu-ray.

blink was very succinct. If you have MPEG2, leave it MPEG2.
TeetimeNC wrote on 3/24/2009, 6:29 AM
"Blu-ray format on a dual-layer DVD9? Is that a realistic option?"

John, can I also burn Blu-ray on a single layer DVD? I typically make shorts, less than 8 minutes, and would like to be able to use up my supply of single layer DVDs for these.

Jerry
blink3times wrote on 3/24/2009, 7:35 AM
"John, can I also burn Blu-ray on a single layer DVD??

Yes. You can do both mpeg2 or avc to dvd5/9...although if you choose mpeg2 you will not be able to use menus.
NickHope wrote on 3/24/2009, 8:24 AM
Thanks for the help blink

Now hoping to demux my original HDV file and use that on a BD-R so there's no recompression at all. Can I have menus with that? Just checking that you're saying that mpeg2 + menus is only a problem on a DVD5 or DVD9.
blink3times wrote on 3/24/2009, 11:50 AM
On BD-r you can create menus with both avc and mpeg2. It's only the dvd5/9 that you can't create menus while using mpeg2

You SHOULDN'T get ANY recompression when going from HDV to M2V for BD-r.... but you will. The Vegas "no recompress" function is a little broken with the blu ray templates so you'll see short bursts of "no recompress" on the screen.... but it does render pretty dammed fast and if there is any quality loss... I sure can't see it.
CorTed wrote on 3/24/2009, 3:44 PM
Blink can you tell me some more regarding menu items on DVD's
I have burnt AVCHD to DVD5/9 using DVDA5 with menu's just like I would when I burn them to BD?

The only thing I have noticed when burning AVCHD to standard DVD is that one has to lower the actual bitrate when burning to approx 18Mbs or the DVD's will not play. (at least not on my players), and when you do this the quality seems to be affected esspecially on fast moving frames.

Ted
blink3times wrote on 3/24/2009, 5:06 PM
Ted,

I didn't spend a lot of time doing DVD5/9 but the ones that I did were around 17Mb/s and they worked fine in the PS3 (most of it was dvd9)

The menu system is very much the same as creating a real blu ray disk. You can have a master menu, sub menus, with motion, sound....etc. But of course room is quite limited and the more space you donate to menus, the less there is for video. The best program I have found to do this.... believe it or not... is Ulead Movie Factory 6. I never had a dvd9 failure with this program.

I also saw motion artifacts when using avc.... and yes... especially on faster moving scenes. I soon switched over to doing mpeg2 on dvd9 because the mpeg2 always turned out better.... but then the menus got sacrificed (you can't do mpeg2 with menus). I was getting about 45 minutes on a dvd9 with mpeg2
blink3times wrote on 3/24/2009, 5:27 PM
I should point out that this idea of mpeg2 an no menus was quite some time ago and it MAY have changed. I heard (third or forth hand info) that a few people have successfully done mpeg2 with menus to dvd9

Export your M2V and AC3 from Vegas, use TSmuxer (free download) to mux and create your m2ts (this is done with no recompressing) then import the m2ts to MF6 and burn with menus (again there should be no recompressing here either
LJA wrote on 3/25/2009, 7:31 AM
I regularly use MPEG-2 to Blu-ray on DVD 5/9 using DVDA 5.0. Menu capabilities are the same as for SD DVDs. Menu options are more limited with ULEAD MF6, but menus are available there as well.
NickHope wrote on 4/20/2009, 3:24 AM
Reporting back...

So I purchased TMPGEnc Authoring Works 4 and I can confirm that it successfully creates a Blu-ray with scene-selection track menus using my HDV .m2t files. There is no recompression being done and in Vegas the original .m2t file and the new .m2t file that the program creates in BDMV/Stream folder appears identical, although they are very slightly different sizes. This may be just something added in the header(?).

I'm really pleased to get my HDV footage all the way from camera to screen with no recompression whatsoever :-)

I highly recommend TMPGEnc Authoring Works. Like it's predecessor, TMPGEnc DVD Author, it's robust and is great for just getting the job done. It uses a wizard approach which helps avoid slips. Although it doesn't have quite all the features of DVDA it still has subtitles, motion menus etc.. I don't think it has multiple subtitle tracks, which DVDA has.

I burnt 2 of my Verbatim printable BD-Rs (Taiwan-made, purchased in the UK) at 6x in my LG BE06LU10 Blu-ray writer using the burning tool included with TMPGEnc Authoring Works and tested them in PowerDVD and Sony PS3 and they work fine.

A quick tip for anyone who wants to test their authored Blu-ray folders before burning a disc. Since version 7.3, PowerDVD will no longer play a Blu-ray from folders on a hard drive. I understand WinDVD is now the same. To get around this I wrote an ISO image using the latest ImgBurn (using UDF 2.50 setting) and mounted it with Virtual CloneDrive. PowerDVD 7.3 then pops up and plays the Blu-ray off the hard drive as if it's on a Blu-ray drive.
blink3times wrote on 4/20/2009, 4:07 AM
I tried windvd.... stinks (IMO). When I first installed it told me that I must LOWER my resolution (I'm on a 1900x1200 screen)

PowerDVD ultra 9 flawlessly plays just about everything you can think of... MTS, TS, M2TS, MOV, Cineform avi ( as long as you have the codec installed), AC3, wav, aac.....on and on.

I replaced all of my freebie viewers with just one.... it's worth the money.
NickHope wrote on 4/20/2009, 4:23 AM
Blink do you know if PowerDVD ultra 9 will play Blu-ray folders off a hard drive like 7.2 used to be able to?
blink3times wrote on 4/20/2009, 5:03 AM
I haven't tried but I can run a test for you. It'll have to do it later on today though... I'm off to work in a short bit. I'll get back to you later today.
blink3times wrote on 4/20/2009, 5:23 AM
Never mind... I just happen to have a BDMV folder on file and I just tried it.

If I go to "open media files" and then highlight the BDMV folder, it does see, acknowledge, and play the 2 startup files (INDEX.BDMV, and MOVIEOBJECT.BDMV). Click on either one of those and the movie begins.

But as far as I can see it won't play a folder just by clicking on the folder itself.

So i guess the answer is yes.... but albeit in a round about way.
NickHope wrote on 4/21/2009, 2:18 AM
Thanks Blink. My PowerDVD 7.3 that was bundled with the LG drive does NOT play those files. I guess I'll upgrade, as having to write an ISO image to test the authored Blu-ray before burning is quite a lengthy extra step. I've emailed Cyberlink to double-check this feature.

I've read elsewhere that the studios got the feature taken out of PowerDVD/WinDVD but that Nero Showtime apparently will still do it, but I'm not keen on Nero stuff. Anyone know any other software that'll play a Blu-ray folder off a hard drive?
craftech wrote on 4/21/2009, 3:37 AM
Nick,

Try K-Lite Mega Codec Pack with Media Player Classic Homecinema.

Alternately, you could try and see if you can get PowerDVD v7.3 Ultra (7.3.3119a ), but you may need a registry cleaner to remove your current version.

John
NickHope wrote on 4/21/2009, 7:31 AM
Thanks John, I just tried the K-Lite/MPC route and, like VLC Media Player, it will play the m2t files but it won't mount the menus as working menus, only as videos. No good for menu testing then.

I have heard that the earlier version of PowerDVD you describe works but as my version was bundled and I don't have a serial number, it might be difficult to purchase that legally anywhere.

Blink, you seem to be the only one who can get PowerDVD Ultra 9 playing a Blu-ray off a hard drive. I wonder why.

I've had a recommendation for Arcsoft TotalMedia Theater so I might try that. Any user experiences with this product?
NickHope wrote on 4/21/2009, 9:31 PM
Just downloaded the trial and I can confirm that Arcsoft TotalMedia Theatre 3 does indeed play a Blu-ray from folders on a hard drive. Current price is $69.99. I'm not sure the image at full res is quite as crisp as PowerDVD, but that might be my imagination.
NickHope wrote on 4/22/2009, 4:07 AM
Apologies for talking to myself. I know it's one of the first signs of insanity. Just reporting back again for anyone who might be going down the same route as me.

So I found out, by testing the trial, that Nero Showtime 5 (included in Nero 9 - "the definition of bloat") will not play a Blu-ray from a folder on a hard drive. They too must have taken that feature out some time since Showtime 3 (would be interested in knowing which versions of Showtime would do this. That leaves Arcsoft TotalMedia Theatre 3 as the only currently purchasable app I can find that will do this.

I also realised that TMPGEnc Authoring Works really has some advantages over the competition. I can put an HDV file straight into it without demuxing first or without writing a file out of Vegas using a Blu-ray template, and it will smart-render from that HDV file. This is an advantage over DVDA, which sadly recompresses even if the HDV file is demuxed, or over Ulead DVD Movie Factory which requires a demuxed video stream (which it will apparently smart-render - I didn't test it because suprisingly the trial did not include Blu-ray functionality at all!).

Also I was wrong, TMPGEnc Authoring Works will do multiple subtitles, but only 2 tracks. This is one feature where DVDA has the advantage. I have projects with 3 subtitle tracks.

I was interested in using the 0000X.m2ts files stored in my authored BDMV/STREAM folders as my only archive of my rendered videos so I can save hard drive space, but sadly Vegas won't smart render this back to HDV (a feature I would want), even though it had previously been smart-rendered the opposite way. The differences in structure of the MPEG2 video stream in the HDV and in the Blu-ray must just be too much.

One workaround for anyone who wants to author their Blu-ray in DVDA but is hell-bent on no-recompression of the HDV video source...

1) Use TMPGenc Authoring Works to make a simple Blu-ray folder of the video (with smart-rendering)
2) Demux the biggest 0000X.m2ts file found in the BCMV/STREAM folder that has been created (use tsMuxeR etc. to do this)
3) Drop the 0000X.m2v into your DVDA project. It won't recompress.

Of couse, you'll need the bucks to spare on TMPGEnc Authoring Works and the demuxer but these are nice things to have in the kit.
blink3times wrote on 4/22/2009, 4:34 AM
"Ulead DVD Movie Factory which requires a demuxed video stream (which it will apparently smart-render - I didn't test it because suprisingly the trial did not include Blu-ray functionality at all!)."

I'm not sure where you got this Nick but it's untrue. DVDa, more often than not requires elementary video/audio streams in order to avoid recompressing. But Ulead MF is quite the opposite. It requires your work to be muxed in order to "smart render" I can pop a HDV, or a m2ts (avchd) clip on the ulead time line and have it smart render without issue, but if I bring those same clips in as a M2V/ac3 then i knock out the smart render. The odd time I will use ulead instead of DVDa and when i do, I have to use TSmuxer to mux my m2v and ac3 to form a m2ts BEFORE I import to ulead..... otherwise I recompress.

BTW.... you can also create a blu ray folder with TSmuxer. It's fast, does not recompress.... and it's free. It will also handle quite a number of different formats as long as they are relatively similar.