Best workflow for editing 4K in Vegas?

Rich Parry wrote on 8/30/2014, 6:01 PM

I've been shooting 4K video using my new Sony AX100 but haven't come up with a reasonable workflow. The main problem editing is the slow playback frame rate, I can't make editing decisions looking at 3fps video.

I'm confused and frustrated by my research, I've read and seen YouTube information on Handbreak and FrameServer but it makes little sense to me. Am I supposed to take dozens of my 4K clips, convert them using Handbreak, then use Vegas to edit using the compressed clips then when editing is complete put the original clips back on the timeliine.

Frustrated in San Diego,
Rich

Comments

john_dennis wrote on 8/30/2014, 6:50 PM

Are you using Vegas Pro 13?

Did you read page 102 of the Vegas Pro 13 Manual about proxies?

In 12-770, I get 20-24 fps with native AX100 sample files with an i7-3770(k) with on-board video. Preview = Best (Auto).

Not bragging, just trying to get a comparison.

Rich Parry wrote on 8/30/2014, 7:50 PM

John,

Thanks for reply, I have VP12, I looked at VP13, but didn't see anything of use to me, maybe I was wrong. I will read about "Proxies" right now.

thanks,
Rich

OldSmoke wrote on 8/30/2014, 7:55 PM

@Rich Parry

4K editing does require a of lot horsepower but it is possible on slower machines. I have a fairly good machine and I can preview 4K at Best/Full but once I drop in a couple of effects the preview goes down. I went the proxy route and I am quite happy with it. I use Vegasaur for it as it let's you easily switch between Proxy and actual file and you can chose the proxy file format that suits your system best. I use XDCAM HD @35MB and that works fine.

dingus wrote on 8/30/2014, 8:12 PM

I have an AX100 and I noticed a big difference in editing speed between V11 and V13 (I did not buy V12). Try the V13 trial and see if there is a difference.

OldSmoke wrote on 8/30/2014, 10:20 PM

Rich Parry

I just checked your system specs and you already got a Dual Xeon setup but you have a GTX680. I suggest you try switching OFF GPU acceleration. Your two Xeons are pretty fast and the GTX680 isn't really supported well anyways.

VidMus wrote on 8/31/2014, 12:52 AM

Or, one could do what I did and get the HDRCX900/B and stay in 2k land instead. Shoot, no-one here wants Blu-Ray, so why bother with 4k?

A funny little thing called 'budget' says this is what I have to do. I still get most of the benefits.

I got it from Amazon's warehouse deal and got $200+ dollars off the regular price. So I saved $500+ off the sale price of the AX100 and a total of $700+ off the regular price.

I am hoping that Sony will sell a firmware upgrade to make my camera 4k. The hardware is there, it just needs the firmware.

Note: According to Amazon's description, it is supposed to have some minor scratches on the front of it. Well, I looked at it and I cannot find any scratches on it at all and so far it works perfectly. Turns out it is a nice way to save some money and still get a great camera.

The video quality is great on this thing! It is almost like having a HD VX-2000.

Mark_e wrote on 8/31/2014, 1:41 AM

I'm my system with gh4 4k footage in mp4 wrapper this helps me a lot with the gpu on have a look in the advanced settings and try setting the OpenCL Filter memory size to the max of your gpu I set mine to 3000 for the 780 gtx else I think it defaults to 300meg ish for the gpu when I set my to 3000 it made all the difference in the world to 4k footage. I also allocated at least 6gig normal memory which gets used right away with 4k. Remember to check when upgrading vegas as it gets reset or at least did for me. I keep eye on any plugins that also use gpu acceleration and sometimes have to compromise and flip one or other to CPU. Also just use internal proxy creation as required just right click on imported media select create proxy and change to preview.

Have also found that just letting vegas resize it in 1080p time line on the fly works well suspect less video ram gets used haven't tested then if you are delivering 4k just change it back at the end. Using the above I don't really notice any practical differences to editing 1080p footage for basic editing.

OldSmoke wrote on 8/31/2014, 8:20 AM

Shoot, no-one here wants Blu-Ray, so why bother with 4k?

Well, if you don't sell BDs then sure. I do sell BDs and I turned it around and charge more for DVDs nowadays. You just have to push your clients and once they have experienced the difference, they will go for it.
While BDs are still not 4K, 4K resized to HD is really really nice! I also find that the 4K footage even at 4:2:0 has a lot more room for color correction.

All that said, the CX900 is a great camera! I just wish we will get a firmware upgrade that will give us timecode, better switching between Photo and Video mode (see my comments on B&H under AX100) and a way to remove the SD card without switching on power; which happens the moment you open the screen. I also don't understand why the view finder shows the Tele/Zoom and record icons in the viewfinder. Oh, and I want the eyecup from the X70!

Rich Parry wrote on 8/31/2014, 6:39 PM

Thanks to all that replied.

I've never needed Proxy files until I began shooting 4K, so I totally forgot about using them. Since I sent my original post, I have created proxy files and so far so good. I'm not getting BEST FULL at full frame rate but close enough. I need to spend more time, but so far so good.

Regarding the comment to turn off GPU acceleration, it was already off, so that didn't affect my problem.

Regarding trying VP13, I have downloaded a trial version, it's too early for a VP12 vs.VP13 comparison.

Just one question remains, when I am done with a project and no longer need the proxy files, how do I delete them? Is there a "Delete Proxy" button?

thanks,
Rich

VidMus wrote on 8/31/2014, 7:36 PM

@OldSmoke,

I wish the camera had assignable buttons for profiles. It will be done is as follows.

A menu choice will be used to assign the current settings to one of the buttons as a profile.

The ‘Iris’ button can be assigned for profile ‘A’

The ‘Gain/ISO’ button can be assigned for profile ‘B’

The ‘Shutter Speed’ button can be assigned for profile ‘C’

So for instance at a wedding the profile buttons can be set as follows:

Profile ‘A’ is set for indoor white balance and other settings needed for indoor church situations.

Profile ‘B’ is set for outdoor white balance and other settings needed for outdoor situations.

Profile ‘C’ is set for the wedding reception.

Pressing each button would quickly change the camera from one profile to another.

Pressing and holding the ‘Manual’ button and any of the individual profile buttons would toggle them from profile mode to auto or from auto back to profile mode.

Holding any of the individual profile buttons for 3 seconds would reset the button(s) to their default settings. A menu setting can also be used to toggle the buttons from profile to auto or be used to reset one or all of them.

All of this plus time-code would be fantastic AND doable without any hardware changes.

aldo12xu wrote on 11/1/2014, 3:39 PM

I have Vegas 12 and an older computer but was able to use Vegas generated proxies as described at the end of this link:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/getting_on_board_with_the_4K_revolution

Basically:

- go to Project Media

- right click on clip

- choose Create Video Proxy

- choose Draft or Preview mode as preview (uses proxies)

- to view project with original 4k clips choose Good or Best preview

- to use original 4k clips when rendering out, make sure video render quality is set to Good or Best

- to render out 4k format, render as Sony XAVC / XAVC S Expand and pick a template

NickHope wrote on 11/2/2014, 1:05 AM

>> I'm my system with gh4 4k footage in mp4 wrapper this helps me a lot with the gpu on have a look in the advanced settings and try setting the OpenCL Filter memory size to the max of your gpu I set mine to 3000 for the 780 gtx else I think it defaults to 300meg ish for the gpu when I set my to 3000 it made all the difference in the world to 4k footage. I also allocated at least 6gig normal memory which gets used right away with 4k. <<

Mark_e, are these settings in the Nvidia control panel or elsewhere? I'm in a position where I have both AMD and Nvidia GPUs in my computer, but because all 3 of my monitors are hooked to the AMD, I can't access the Nvidia control panel, even though Vegas will let me use it for GPU acceleration.

Rich Parry, you could take a look at my thread How to edit GH4 C4K footage on an ancient computer. It's a pretty nice workflow for editing 4k on an old computer. Ignore the stuff about GH4VideoLengthFix.js which doesn't apply to your camera. Also, if you use such a workflow, maybe consider Canopus HQX as a proxy instead of UT Video Codec.