Boycott Vegas 12 unless Vegas 11 gets stable!


paul_w wrote on 1/24/2012, 6:22 PM
I actually fear from a programming point of view, this software may never be stable. Its gone way beyond that point. Driven by marketing people telling SCS what features are needed. Too many bolt on features, spaghetti coding from the past probably forced into class code to try and make it managable, old engineers leaving, new engineers having to try and decode what was already done years ago... Who knows whats going on. But we see the bugs. Thats clear.
I wonder if its even possible to turn this mega ship around and miss the rocks.... and we all know what happens then.
My name is on the list, but saying i will boycott v12 is hard to say, what if v12 is announced as "The stable version"... then what. I would probably buy it. However if its just another face lift with some gimmics, then no.

MUTTLEY wrote on 1/24/2012, 6:33 PM
Well said RalphM. I just posted something in another thread expressing a similar sentiment to yours though yours was quite candidly much more eloquent than mine.

- Ray
Underground Planet
magowski wrote on 1/24/2012, 8:12 PM
I started using Vegas in highschool - it was version 4.0 I believe - and I made my very first music video with it. I was astonished by the possibilities that keyframing & effects gave and of course - great stability (previously I used Pinnacle Studio witch was hella of mess and needed like 3 or 4 crashes on boot to finally start!).

Then, years later, I got Vegas 7 bundled with Z1 HDV camcorder which my father bought. I returned to editing and if not for Vegas, my career would've steer in a very different direction. Vegas 7 was awesome - great stability, lossless HDV capturing even on a PIECE OF CRAP hardware, fastest renders.

Fast forward to present times, I became a big endorser of Vegas - many of my friends switched from FCP, APP seeing what I could do in Vegas in much shorter time. Everything was fine & dandy till I "upped my game" - I've started editing a TV programme. I had real deadlines (big fines in case of failing), much more formats to use & more sophisticated effects. Then it all went wrong - random crashes, effects freezing the software, black frames on sequenced stills, etc etc.
Somehow I managed to overcome those (Crtl + S became my tic even outside the software), but it was a harsh road. I even exchanged some computer parts thinking it's the culprit. Sadly, that didn't help a lot.

Now, version 11 is live. I was really excited, but I hestitated my purchase seeing version 10 had quite major issues left unfixed. Two weeks ago I decided to test out the trial. Creating a simple project - cool, works fine, looks pretty stable.
But few days ago I tried opening one of my last tv show project. Oh my dear God - it was a bug gallore. Everything was crashing from ntdll, effects, cuda drivers to exes, random dlls and even a BSOD related to memory managment.
Tinkering more with the programme ended up worse - Vegas was crashing consequtively on startup when loading a project, till at 5th or 6th time it finally worked!
Unbelievable! Just like Pinnacle Studio a decade ago when I was doing my first short (I was 14 then). My editing "history" just circled a loop. Concluding this rather useless - but sentinemental - post, I would love to see this software stable again, just like in olden days.

It was THE application that teached me editing, literally TEACHED, and I saw it gaining new features as I was honing my skills. I don't want to leave Vegas & a great deal of experience, so SCS, please - fix this great application, it's worth all the attention & respect from editors of all levels, but to earn those, we have to be assured we will have ROCK SOLID stability on ANY machine - just like Vegas 7 had.

Thank you, I'm relieved now :)
TheHappyFriar wrote on 1/24/2012, 9:21 PM
I'll do what I always do with EVERY version: download the demo and run it through a project before I buy something I don't know if it will work or not.

That's a no-brainer.
Hulk wrote on 1/24/2012, 9:45 PM
While my name is on the "fix it" list for V10 for a timeline sync issue I have in 9 and 10, but not 8, I do not endorse a boycott.

I understand the frustration but if the trail of 12 is really solid then I'll buy it. The 11 trail was not solid for me so I didn't buy it.

I think the better option here is to try and get the word out to really use that 30 day trial to the fullest before dropping any dimes. One thing I will say is that the days of simply buying the update and knowing you were getting a solid piece of software right off the bat seem to be history.

The other suggestion I would make, and this one is to the Sony development team is to make Vegas more modular so you can choose to install certain features only if you need them, keeping a cleaner, leaner install. But I could see that making debugging even more complicated I guess.
R0cky wrote on 1/24/2012, 10:04 PM
Boycott if you want. Vote with your wallet. I want 10 fixed to not crash. I have not seen the replace media bug but accept that it exists and is terrible.

I can make V11 crash on demand. All I get is automated emails to try the new build and then my support ticket is closed automatically without any input from me.

I understand it is stable for some and not for others. Clearly your precise config is important. This is what I use all of the time and need stability whille installed:

Mercalli purchased.
Neat video
Boris FX
Magic Bullet
External monitoring with Black Magic intensity shuttle.

Ext monitoring, cineform, and Borix FX are highly correlated with crashes.

I was looking at buying premier today. I much prefer to use vegas but even 10 crashes all of the time.

John_Cline wrote on 1/24/2012, 10:40 PM
I have had no trouble with Vegas v11 but I can make Premiere CS 5.5 crash on demand: I just add a clip to the timeline. That makes it kind of hard to use.
ushere wrote on 1/24/2012, 11:59 PM
my name is on the list - though i wouldn't support a so called boycott, i only wanted to add my voice to the replace clip argument.

that said, i won't be buying into 12 with any discount - i'll simply wait till i read here that people are happy with it, then buy, and if i have to pay rrp, then i will since my experiences with 10 and 11 probably cost me well in excess of the savings i made buying with the discount.

i also understand the 'angry' rants posted here (though i don't necessarily approve of the tone of some of them) since where else does one complain?

vegas pro is being sold as a 'professional' nle, not as a hobbyists (they have studio for that). it's only fair that if i buy a 'professional' tool i should be able to use it in a professional environment...

(when i had an analogue online facility using sony equipment all i ever had to do was phone sony if i had a problem and i'd have a visit from one of their techs to sort it out. heck, when i was beta testing for drastic technologies they twice sent a tech over from canada to sort out PAL bugs in their ddr.)

i am as committed to vegas as much as any professional is committed to the tool('s) of his trade. when that tool no longer performs i, like any sensible pro, will look for an alternative (i'm lurking on the edius boards just to see how they're faring).

like jc, i've not had any 'major' trouble with 11, other than using new blue titler, and strange goings on with a couple of ofx plugins, but with my last few projects i could probably have got away with editing them in mm2! ;-)

MTuggy wrote on 1/25/2012, 12:04 AM
Yep, not upgrading again until its perfect. Really...

farss wrote on 1/25/2012, 12:58 AM
On a positive note, one thing SCS can take away from this thread is they sure have a passionate user base,

ushere wrote on 1/25/2012, 2:07 AM
very true bob - i've been spruking vegas to students, clients and friends for years. it's only since 10 and 11 that i've been adding caveats....
VanLazarus wrote on 1/25/2012, 2:20 AM
Does anyone from SCS frequent these forums?
John_Cline wrote on 1/25/2012, 3:04 AM
Van, what exactly do you expect to accomplish with this thread?
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 1/25/2012, 3:18 AM
This kind of stuff will just encourage Sony to shut down these forums.

Use the forums for what they're for, and leave your "coordinated boycotts" at the log-in page. This is SCS's forums, and I'm surprised they've let you even get this far with this post instead of locking it and temp banning you from the forums. No, and I mean absolutely NO other forum that I know of that is run by the manufacturers would allow this, and you're being disrespectful to them in my opinion regardless of whether your sentiments being well founded from your experiences or not.

If you want to rant about something start a blog on your own personal website, but it's just rude to be welcomed into someone else's place of business and then start telling everyone there to boycott them unless they do something ( even if that something is a good thing that they should do ).

Duncan H wrote on 1/25/2012, 4:31 AM
Well said. Totally agree, regardless of experiences with the software.

farss wrote on 1/25/2012, 4:32 AM
"This kind of stuff will just encourage Sony to shut down these forums."

Sadly this isn't the ONLY place where users are not happy and at least the only people reading this one are Vegas users. I'd also add the tone here is no less polite than it is elsewhere, Vegas 11 seems to have sunk to the level of a running joke.

I do kind of agree though, this thread is pointless. If the users have to up the ante to this extent to get a reaction all is lost anyway, SCS should have been doing something to manage the damage some time ago, being heavy handed here and censoring posts is only going to send people elsewhere to vent their anger and there it'll be more in the open and do more damage.

VanLazarus wrote on 1/25/2012, 4:46 AM
@FrigidNDEditing... Really? It's rude to expect software to be stable? What's rude, is being unwilling beta testers for software! That's rude!... and unprofessional! I have paid for a product, and when that product doesn't do what it is marketed to do in a reliable fashion, it is Sony that is being disrespectful... disrespectful of it's loyal user-base that has supported this editor for many years.

And if Sony's software forum isn't the place to try and get Sony's attention that Vegas 11 (and Vegas 10) are too unstable, where is? Adobe's forum? Or maybe you think it would be more respectful to post criticism of Vegas on Apple forums? Avid forums?

Or maybe you think I should submit another Sony support ticket? Not only are many of these bugs known, but have you ever submitted a Sony ticket? The type of support I received was terrible and wasted many hours of my time with no satisfying solution.

Use this forum for what it's for? Maybe I'm wrong. I thought one of the purposes of these forums was to get solutions to problems with Sony software? I can't solve bugs in Vegas.... only Sony can. Maybe it's silly of me to think that someone at SCS could be reading this forum.

And how can you say that's it's disrespectful to try and gather together a group of other frustrated Vegas users in an effort to get Sony's attention? Their place of business? YES, that's exactly why I'm saying this HERE!

It may all be pointless.... yes... most likely. At the very least I've found others that share my pain and I see that I'm NOT the only one feeling that Vegas stability is on a downward spiral. But I'm hoping that someone in a position of power at SCS is paying attention and will place stability ABOVE new features.... That they will focus more energy on solving the many long standing bugs in Vegas before more energy is spent on adding new features.

If they decide to shut this thread down, or remove me from the forum, it will be clear to others that stability is not a priority, and all those not towing the company line will be shut out. I hope this is not the case. All it would take is one truly stable version of Vegas to reignite my love of Vegas. That's it. All the money I've poured into other Sony products (Sound Forge, Cinescore, Sound Effect Libraries, Sony Music) will maintain it's use and value to me. Then I'll be a Vegas disciple again, fighting the good fight against all the FCP, Avid, and Premiere users that ignore/discredit Vegas.
megabit wrote on 1/25/2012, 5:40 AM
Calm down, guys... Being an engineer by education and main profession (dealing with mission-critical engineering software, and having some experience in developing it, too) - I think I'm in a position to say that:

- of all engineering tasks, software development is the most difficult to yield bullet-proof results, and working 100% as advertised (or should I say - intended).

NO software system that I'm aware of, or have ever tried/used, has been absolutely stable and/or functional - certainly not in its first version incorporating some major functionality extension (like e.g. GPU support in Vegas Pro 11). Software development is about art as much as it is about engineering. Software implementation and usage must account for that - i.e. we the users must be prepared to accept it "as is", and use work-arounds and other "creative" approach where necessary!

Myself, I've also been suffering from various issues in Vegas Pro from Sony - but so have I had to live with numerous shortcomings of my mission-critical plastics injection simulation system from Autodesk.... The only difference being that a Vegas Pro upgrade comes at some $150 every year or so, while Autodesk Moldflow is Euro 100,000 to start with...

So please, just put it all in perspective...


AMD TR 2990WX CPU | MSI X399 CARBON AC | 64GB RAM@XMP2933  | 2x RTX 2080Ti GPU | 4x 3TB WD Black RAID0 media drive | 3x 1TB NVMe RAID0 cache drive | SSD SATA system drive | AX1600i PSU | Decklink 12G Extreme | Samsung UHD reference monitor (calibrated)

John_Cline wrote on 1/25/2012, 6:03 AM
What the hell makes you think that the Vegas software engineers are just sitting around and NOT working every day to fix the problems with Vegas?

There was a pretty vocal group here on the forum not long ago SCREAMING about why there wasn't GPU support and they were threatening to bail to Premiere or FCP if their demands were not met. Well, guess what? GPU support is here and it opened up a whole can of worms. This thread didn't need to be started to get SCS's attention, I'm certain they're aware of the issues already. The Vegas programmers are people, too, and I'm sure they take pride in Vegas and they're doing everything possible to work things out.

Have you checked out the Adobe Premiere forums, it ain't no bed of roses over there either. I own Premiere v5.5 and it is so unstable I can't even place clips on the timeline without it crashing. And how about Apple seriously dumbing down their latest version of FCP and forcing all those FCP post houses to invest tons of money switching to a completely different NLE.

Personally, Vegas v11 is working fine for me, I'm in it pretty much all day, every day, generating product for paying clients. I'll be one of the first ones in line to buy Vegas v12.
i am erikd wrote on 1/25/2012, 6:06 AM
"- of all engineering tasks, software development is the most difficult to yield bullet-proof results, and working 100% as advertised (or should I say - intended)."

I'm sure it ain't easy but maybe that statement was a bit too much. The Hadron Collider comes to mind as an engineering project whose complexity beats writing code for Sony Vegas. I think it's not so much about the complexity as it is about the quality of the team members working on the project and the expectations that are put on them by management. My feeling is that SCS is failing in both of these areas.

PeterWright wrote on 1/25/2012, 6:12 AM
Piotr, thanks for putting some Polish polish onto this issue, and for reminding us that we're dealing with an extremely good editing program that costs us $3 a week.

I happen to be one of those lucky b*stards for whom V11 is working fine, and my system is quite modest - a few years old, apart from a $140 new graphics card (GTX550ti) which I bought to take advantage of some of V11's new features.

Those still having problems - how about being prepared to change something in your system to make things better instead of insisting "This is my system - Vegas had better work on it."

At least be prepared to work through whatever issues you're having with SCS - do you really think they want you to have problems?

One other point - I don't recall reading a single report of V11 replacing media - if that's not the case for someone, please say so, but otherwise acknowledge this as a significant issue that has been fixed.

I'd hate for all this negativity to cause the demise of a program I've used happily for 10 years and continue to earn a healthy crust with.
John_Cline wrote on 1/25/2012, 6:38 AM
"The Hadron Collider comes to mind as an engineering project whose complexity beats writing code for Sony Vegas."

The Hadron Collider was built in collaboration with over 10,000 scientists and engineers from over 100 countries, as well as hundreds of universities and laboratories. It took ten years to build (1998-2008), but hasn't been without problems, most of 2009 was spent on repairs and reviews from the damage caused by a quench incident, along with two further vacuum leaks identified in July 2009 which pushed the start of operations to November of that year.

Google "hadron collider problems"
JJKizak wrote on 1/25/2012, 6:57 AM
I mainly use the 32 bit version of Vegas and do not push it as others do--just simple tracks with minor corrections. I do not make money with it but love to create my own stuff. The same crusty "anomolies" happened with Turbotax a while ago when they went through a programmer downsizing and screwed up the program. It has been corrected except for the updates that switch the main program from the primary monitor to the secondary monitor---which may be even my problem. I am confident that Vegas Pro will eventually be "Pro". I probably will ride Vegas Pro all the way down to the bottom of the ocean. The connections with the other Sony apps are one of the great things about Vegas. And I still love the blue snaps and the pink out of sync colors. Also the scripts. The main focus of Vegas IMHO has lost workflow focus to the new Avid cheapo thingy which takes most of the "added on" Vegas workflow items and consolidates it in one giant swoop. Very clear thinking here.
i am erikd wrote on 1/25/2012, 7:57 AM
Agreed John, my point was that there are plenty of engineering problems out there more complex than Sony Vegas.